Ideas For Improving Cqc...

[ENIAK_Prime]

((... CQC means "Close Quarters Combat". aka, melee.))

 

I feel like one of the biggest problems with melee right now is that it's still wildly unsafe to use in a crowd. As masters of the sword, Tenno should be able to flash their blades and dice up enemies without immediately making themselves an open, sitting target for everyone around them with a gun. At the moment, the only way to avoid becoming swiss cheese while in "CQC Mode" is to either put up your guard and have everyone in front of you, or engage a finisher (not a down-finisher. Those don't give invincibility frames. Which really needs to be fixed).

I'd like to discuss some ideas (not all of them mine) that could fix this glaring, lore-breaking issue.6

 

1. MAKE STAMINA SCALE BETTER FOR GUARDING AND MELEE IN GENERAL.
As a lot of you are well aware, the guarding/stamina system currently kinda sucks for CQC at the moment. Sure, it works alright for low to mid levels, but it offers little to nothing in high-level content. And yes, this is accounting for having ALL the stamina-benefit mods installed together (marathon, quick rest, warrior's grip). As you might also know, this is primarily because the reduction to your stamina while guarding is directly proportionate to the damage of the attacks being deflected. That is a terrible, terrible system and needs to be changed if we're to have any fun with it across all levels of content. And there's more about this in #4.

 

2. SOME FORM OF DAMAGE MITIGATION WHILE SWINGING THE WEAPON.
I'd LIKE to see this just be an inherent property of Tenno Skill, but make it a mod if you must.
Basically this suggestion is to make it so that, somehow, when the tenno are swinging their weapons, they deflect (or simply reduce) a portion of the damage coming at them. My only reasoning is that it just seems like something masters of the gun and blade should be able to do.

3. CHANGE "ROLL" TO "DASH" IN CQC MODE.

"Dash" would be a short-ranged rapid step rather than a rolling maneuver, and would replacing rolling when the guns are put away for CQC-Mode. Tenno would (and should) be able to cancel melee attacks immediately into dashes, be able to dash in any direction and be able to perform a "dash attack" which would be a standing version of the spin attack with less distance.

The Dash also must ABSOLUTELY be considered a high-speed Tenno Maneuver, meaning it would trigger lowered accuracy on enemies attempting to fire upon Tenno using the Dash. The dash should consume stamina, of course.

If this is included, we should also consider...

4. REDUCE (OR REMOVE) STAMINA USAGE FROM WEAPON-SWINGING.
Let's be honest here, there's no reason for it.

It just seems odd that you can still swing your weapon (an action that consumes stamina) even after all your stamina is gone. So it's clear you don't want to prevent people from slicing and dicing, you just want to punish them for slicing and dicing too MUCH. With the current system, however, this punishment doesn't even WORK. Guarding is suicidal in high-end content (so nobody DOES it), and you only need to guard to help you APPROACH your enemies in low-to-mid content. There are rarely situations where you have to guard AFTER you're done slicing, because usually everything is dead after and there's nothing to block.

However, if we implement the DASH feature, this will become a GRAVE issue. Most weapons have consumed your entire stamina pool after only 3-4 swings, and if you're fighting enemies of roughly the same level as you, it's going to require all of those to score ONE kill. Tenno cannot be dashing around and slicing and dicing if they don't have the stamina to pull it off.

 

There is just really no reason mighty, intensely-trained martial-arts badasses like the Tenno should be COMPLETELY WINDED after just a few seconds of work put into ONE LITTLE GRUNT DUDE. That's just INSULTING.

Either weapon-swing stamina-consumption needs to be removed entirely, or it needs to be reduced. All this ON TOP of increasing the overall amount of stamina we have so we can do all this stuff. Seriously, we're in a stamina-famine out here. Granted, it's not affecting us much NOW, but it will when stamina actually becomes more important than being merely guard-fuel.

 

5. BRING BACK CHARGE ATTACKS (and make them actually HOLD this time).
This is not a "remove channeling" suggestion. Instead, I'm suggesting we be allowed to have BOTH. Charging is performed by simply holding down the melee key, so there would be no input conflicts.

As for the "make them HOLD" thing, that was the one thing I hated about charge attacks back in the day. They auto-fired once they were fully charged, instead of waiting for me to tell them when I was ready to strike. I grew up with MegaMan so I'm spoiled by my "release charge to fire" gameplay.

 

6. RAPID GUARD COMMAND.
I have a thread about this here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/350284-maybe-include-some-sort-of-rapid-guard-command/?hl=guard

 

7. MORE UNIQUE FINISHER ANIMATIONS.
This is just really a QoL (Quality of Life) change. Scythe type weapons ESPECIALLY need a radically different Back-Finisher (stealth attack) from Hammers and other heavy weapons. I'd like to see the scythe stealth-attack be something like hooking the blade around the enemy's midsection (or neck) and then tearing back violently to slice through them.

 

~CONCLUSION~
Well, I'm sure there's more we could do, but at the moment I think I've hit all the big things that would make melee just PERFECT. Any additional thoughts?

 

As a disclaimer, I know a lot of these things have been talked about before TO-DEATH. My only excuse for reviving these long-beaten horses is that I haven't seen anyone group 'em together quite like this before (also, Dash is my own idea, so there's that).

Edited January 23, 2015 by Soldatto

[jrainbowfist]

I personally don't agree with the charge replacing channeling because I actually do channel. (Although I can see why someone wouldn't like it)

 

Like the dash though!

[xAzazyel]

Im still waiting for a "Stinger" or "Dash" attack for all the melee weapons....i mean just a way to dodge faster than rolling or helping you repositionate in a run filled with enemies with guns...

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

2. SOME FORM OF DAMAGE MITIGATION WHILE SWINGING THE WEAPON.

I'd LIKE to see this just be an inherent property of Tenno Skill, but make it a mod if you must.

Basically this suggestion is to make it so that, somehow, when the tenno are swinging their weapons, they deflect (or simply reduce) a portion of the damage coming at them. My only reasoning is that it just seems like something masters of the gun and blade should be able to do.

 

I'm all for this idea but I'd be a bit disappointed if it ended up as a mod. Damage mitigation while attacking is pretty much required if you want to go full melee. The last thing we need is more required mods taking up mod space.

[Dartiel]

#3 reminds me of how fun it was playing DMC and Bayonetta, dashing to dodge attacks while racking up combos.

[ENIAK_Prime]

I personally don't agree with the charge replacing channeling because I actually do channel. (Although I can see why someone wouldn't like it)

 

Like the dash though!

Thanks! Also, I figured there are a lot of people who do enjoy the channeling. Changing one for the other (again) would be received with mixed feelings from the community, for sure. All in all it would essentially be a matter of taste on DE's part so who knows...

 

I'm all for this idea but I'd be a bit disappointed if it ended up as a mod. Damage mitigation while attacking is pretty much required if you want to go full melee. The last thing we need is more required mods taking up mod space.

Yeah. When Melee 2.0 came out, really the biggest change was how enemies flinched when you hit them now, instead of continuing to gun you down. It's obvious DE knew there was a problem with survivability while going full CQC, but clearly didn't take into account safety measures to protect you from other nearby gunners you're not immediately attacking, which is very very bad.

I would definitely prefer this be an innate ability rather than a mod.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Soldatto

[CapedBaldy]

Why not have charge and channeling together? I wouldn't mind being able to pull off both at once to one shot dispatch a heavy.

[ENIAK_Prime]

Why not have charge and channeling together? I wouldn't mind being able to pull off both at once to one shot dispatch a heavy.

That's not a bad idea, actually. It's been so long I forgot charge attacks were simply performed by holding DOWN the melee key, and didn't have a special key to themselves. Don't see any reason we couldn't have both!

[unknow99]

Your 5) is something I really can get behind man, +1. :)

 

[CapedBaldy]

About stamina consumption, why not make it so melee swings and sprinting only halts melee regeneration? Blocking would be the only thing that drains it maybe?

[Lukap99]

I actually completely agree with you OP.
I even had a similar thought about the dash, except that maybe it could replace sliding (since we tend to use that as a sort of dash move for zoning.)

[ENIAK_Prime]

About stamina consumption, why not make it so melee swings and sprinting only halts melee regeneration? Blocking would be the only thing that drains it maybe?

I dunno. I think at that point we might as well just call stamina the "shield gauge". I don't mind the idea of stamina being consumed by actions, but I think all those actions need to only consume little bits of stamina, rather than huge chunks per move.

 

I actually completely agree with you OP.
I even had a similar thought about the dash, except that maybe it could replace sliding (since we tend to use that as a sort of dash move for zoning.)

Well I don't want it to replace sliding, since that has a bit more distance behind it.

I do hope that the standing dash-spin-attack will use the same damage modifier as the current spin-attack (even MORE greatness for my Dual Kamas!).

Edited January 16, 2015 by Soldatto

[CapricaSix]

I agree with everything in OP.

 

Also another thing that would greatly help melee is prioritising actions over animations, for example you just quick-meleed a butcher in the midst of 15-20 lancers, your character decides to take roughly 3-4 seconds to sheathe the swords while standing still, completely ruining the pace and turning into a swiss cheese in the meantime. It happens often enough to be disruptive, pressing the attack button should override the animation and go straight for another attack instead, hence the name "quick-melee", not really so quick if we don't get that.

[Tigersight]

Here's the idea I had for increasing survivability in a crowd:

 

When you're standing within 2-3 meters of an enemy, other enemies reduce their rate of fire/stop shooting at you. Why? Because they have an automatic weapon that sprays tons of bullets all over the place, and their target is standing directly next to their friend/colleague/acquaintance/boss/whatever. You tend not to just go guns blazing at a target standing directly on top of someone you REALLY DON'T WANT TO SHOOT.

 

Sound good?

[Warriorrogue]

Stupid thought for charge attacks.

 

Have them like Jetstream Sam in MGR:R. Charge attacks can happen at any point, and vary depending on the point at which they're used. Like, one's a dash, they slicing, one knocks them into the air, one's a spin, and one fires a projectile in MGR's case.

Though that'd require a lot of coding, or restrictions to when they can happen in combos, such as only in the base combo.

[rockscl]

+1 to the dash function, tab Space to dash, its like a short jump after all, theres no need to remove the roll

 

Normal melee attacks should stop stamina from recovering, or even reduce its recovering speed, but not consume it

 

Animation and Next melee canceling is a need, its pretty common to have qeued a melee attack, and being unable to cancel it, i suggest adding the cancel melee Qeued attacks function to the "X" key

Edited January 16, 2015 by rockscl

[Centias]

Can I just have dash instead of roll?

 

Could we just get rid of rolling? Especially the landing auto-roll.

[Nox-Lamina]

All of the yes. This post fixes stamina (I mean it isn't unbelievable to me that Tenno would not get tired period)  and I'd love to see channel + charge. If this gets implemented and we can channel + charge moves in combos Melee would be greatness.

[ENIAK_Prime]

Here's the idea I had for increasing survivability in a crowd:

 

When you're standing within 2-3 meters of an enemy, other enemies reduce their rate of fire/stop shooting at you. Why? Because they have an automatic weapon that sprays tons of bullets all over the place, and their target is standing directly next to their friend/colleague/acquaintance/boss/whatever. You tend not to just go guns blazing at a target standing directly on top of someone you REALLY DON'T WANT TO SHOOT.

 

Sound good?

To be fair, though, the Grineer are all disposable and probably know they are. Corpus... probably just don't care about each other. If Crewman Dan dies, Crewman Steve has a higher chance at that promotion next Wednesday!

[ENIAK_Prime]

UPDATE: Added "Rapid Guard" command request and some quality-of-life changes.