Remove Serration And Other Base Damage Mods From The Game And Replace It With A Damage Boost Based On Weapon Level

[Pandoran_Stallion]

Hi,

I'm UpgradeInProgress, for those (many) of you who don't know me.

 

     After the devstream and the overview, I was thinking about balance and the idea of serration being removed. This is a mod that you're required to use, it's a completely false choice if you want to have any fun killing things with a weapon.

 

   I have a proposal: what if all damage mods were removed and weapon damage was based on level? This would be a 6% boost every level, for an eventual +180% damage boost (or 2.8x the inital damage). I know it sounds crazy. I know it's even more powerful than Serration. But if this also affected melee, secondaries, and shotguns, it would bring them in line and create a more level playing field.

 

   Secondaries lose that 55% damage edge they have on primaries and shotguns using base damage mods (referring to serration and primed point blank), with secondaries losing 40% damage while primaries gain 15%. In addition, melee gets a massive buff with another 60% damage. It's not that Serration has too much strength, it's that it has too much benefit not to be used. This change would fix that.

 

   This requires no stat tweaking, no changes to the damage system, and nothing more than tying damage to weapon level like abilities are tied to Warframes now. This also adds an element of risk to using forma, but it gives the benefit of immediately getting more damage, as opposed to waiting to equip serration. On top of that, that's one more mod slot for that extra element or that extra QoL mod that you want on your weapon. Want to give your Synoid Gammacor punch-through to mow through more enemies? Now you can! 

 

As an example of how this works:

         I have a Soma Prime dealing 12 base damage, at level 1 it would deal 12.7 base damage, at level 2 it would deal 13.4 damage, at level 3 it would deal 14.6 damage, and so on. This would become the base damage of the weapon (in other words, it works exactly like Serration does now).

   

   This might also balance PvP slightly, by bringing damage up every few levels rather than massively boosting a weapon once it unlocks serration. 

 

   I'm not going to mention compensation, because that's another can of worms altogether. I don't want anyone mentioning it in this thread either, this is about gameplay, not about the investment in a mod or two. This could be implemented on other mods, but I want to focus on base damage for now.

 

   That being said, how would you feel if this was implemented? Thoughts? Counter-arguments? 

 

   Please be civil when discussing in this thread. Inflammatory posts can and will be reported. Keep your arguments as logical as possible, and make sure to state opinion as opinion and facts as facts. Represent the community well!

 

         -UpgradeInProgress

 

Edit: Typos and incorrect numbers.

 

Edit 2: Bolded more critical sections.

 

Edit 3: This only affects mods that purely add to base damage. This means Heavy Caliber, Magnum Force, Spoiled Strike, Vicious Spread, and Blaze WILL NOT be removed.

 

Edit 4: Some numbers, if you're interested. Feel free to correct me as this was done rather hurriedly.

Say we have a hypothetical weapon that deals 100 damage per shot at Rank 0. Assume that this weapon is Rank 30. Stats are 100% identical on all of these weapons, and only base damage mods are equipped. The equation is as follows:

        (Base damage at rank 0)(Innate Serration multiplier+Additional base damage mods)(Multishot+1)=Damage on average per shot

 

If it were a Rifle/Sniper/Launcher and all multi-shot and damage mods were applied: 100(2.8+1.65)(1+.9)=845.5 damage on average per shot.

 

Shotgun: 100(2.8+.9+.6)(1+1.2)=946 damage on average per shot. (Plus 594 heat damage from Blaze).

 

Secondary: 100(2.8+.66)(1+1.2+.6)=968.8 damage on average per shot.

 

Melee: 100(2.8+1)(1)=380 damage on average per hit.

 

And since no one EVER uses magnum force unless they're a masochist, here's the equation WITHOUT magnum force.

 

Secondary sans Magnum Force: 100(2.8)(1+1.2+.6)=784 damage on average per shot.

 

Take that as you will.

 

Edit 5: Adjusted numbers. Boost will now be 180% for 6% per level, rather than 200% for 20% every 3 levels.

Edited January 14, 2015 by UpgradeInProgress

[Jahadaya]

Agreed. This would be a great way to reduce the "essential mod" problem, and when Rebecca was talking about this on the Devstream my butterflies flew in my stomach - I've been wanting this forever.

 

Anyway, I think the conditional mod idea that was (rather quickly) spoken about on the 'Stream was amazing (+x damage on headshots, +x damage on unalerted enemies, etc.). It would compliment and encourage varied play-styles and builds more, which is what the mod system was put in place for. +1 OP

Edited January 13, 2015 by Jahadaya

[Dualstar]

That idea would work if it was only going to apply for PvP.

 

But for the normal game things are fine at being limited by thier mod capacity.

[Mesyra]

as long as weapons get the same amount of bonus damage as having a maxed serration @ level 30 and I get compensation for the mod, I'm fine with it. it'll make leveling harder but w/e

[Pandoran_Stallion]

That idea would work if it was only going to apply for PvP.

 

But for the normal game things are fine at being limited by thier mod capacity.

Even if you add another element it's still only a 1 mod point gain.

[Tyrian3k]

Could we also integrate Multishot into this suggestion? It barely does anything different from pure damage.

[Pandoran_Stallion]

Could we also integrate Multishot into this suggestion? It barely does anything different from pure damage.

I'd love to, but I want to focus on base damage for now since it tends to be the largest point of contention. Ideally multishot, critical chance, status, and critical damage would all scale by weapon level.

Edited January 13, 2015 by UpgradeInProgress

[Lactamid]

Any change with only partial removal of the +% dam from a mod is just moving the problem from one mod to another.

Multishot mods and elemental mod will be next in line of the must haves. Unless they do something like elemental mods changing the type of damage your weapon deals there is still kind of the same issue.
Multishot using extra ammo is also something that could "balance" it's use.

Ie:
Weapon X deals 1/3 slash, 1/3 puncture and 1/3 impact. (~33.3% each)
Equipping a heat damage mod would change this damage to do X% heat damage as well. But that damage would be drawn equally from the existing damage types.
If you have a 25% heat mod, the damage of the weapon would not change, but the type of damage would be

1/4 slash, 1/4 pucture, 1/4 impact AND 1/4 heat.

The trick is that due to he elemental bonus damage towards enemies you may end up with a more effective weapon.

[[DE]Saske]

I do not see the point in this in the end the process of leveling a weapon is short and you will use maxed once for high level content anyways. The endresult would not change.

 

The bigger problem is that damage should change with enemie level.

[Jahadaya]

I do not see the point in this in the end the process of leveling a weapon is short and you will use maxed once for high level content anyways. The endresult would not change.

 

The bigger problem is that damage should change with enemie level.

What exactly does that mean?

 

This isn't trying to solve the issue of enemy and weapon scaling - it's trying to solve the issue of "needed" base damage mods, that essentially contribute to killing build diversity. 

[Pandoran_Stallion]

Agreed. This would be a great way to reduce the "essential mod" problem, and when Rebecca was talking about this on the Devstream my jimmies were rustled - I've been wanting this forever.

 

I think the conditional mod idea that was (rather quickly) spoken about on the 'Stream was amazing (+x damage on headshots, +x damage on unalerted enemies, etc.). It would compliment and encourage varied play-styles and builds more, which is what the mod system was put in place for. +1 OP

 

Agreed. This would be a great way to reduce the "essential mod" problem, and when Rebecca was talking about this on the Devstream my jimmies were rustled - I've been wanting this forever.

 

my jimmies were rustled 

 

Shh. Peace, only dreams now. Let the jimmies unrustle and the calm flow through you. 

 

 

Edit: link

Edited January 13, 2015 by UpgradeInProgress

[Drazhar14]

Such a simple fix! They wouldn't even have to re-balance enemy health values. Great idea OP. Have the level 30 version of a weapon do the equivalent bonus damage of having a max serration/hornet strike/etc. Will free up one mod slot for more utility! The old serration/hornet strike/etc mods can be converted into a new mod (preferably utility) so that player's fusion cores did not go to waste. 

[SafeguardSanakan]

I remember when I first started playing warframe I thought my weapons got upgraded with level, like the warframe.

 

So let me get this straight...  Max serration does +165% damage at maximum rank, and we want to make it so that if you rank a weapon up to level 30 it does +200% damage?  So basically a better, built-in serration mod that upgrades with weapon level?

 

Sign me up!

 

Also can we apply this to secondaries and (maybe) melees?  Although melee weapons would need to be adjusted, because pressurepoint only gives you +120% melee damage.

[(PSN)ZMPr0wLer]

Any change with only partial removal of the +% dam from a mod is just moving the problem from one mod to another.

Multishot mods and elemental mod will be next in line of the must haves. Unless they do something like elemental mods changing the type of damage your weapon deals there is still kind of the same issue.

Multishot using extra ammo is also something that could "balance" it's use.

Ie:

Weapon X deals 1/3 slash, 1/3 puncture and 1/3 impact. (~33.3% each)

Equipping a heat damage mod would change this damage to do X% heat damage as well. But that damage would be drawn equally from the existing damage types.

If you have a 25% heat mod, the damage of the weapon would not change, but the type of damage would be

1/4 slash, 1/4 pucture, 1/4 impact AND 1/4 heat.

The trick is that due to he elemental bonus damage towards enemies you may end up with a more effective weapon.

You my friend want to open a can of worms. The op was just wanting to remove seration you want to change how weapons do damage period.

[Master_Marmot_Prime]

So you want to make the game even easier by removing a damage mod and increasing the damage stats?

 

You want DE to remove a possible income source for DE by removing a mod, that most likely everyone uses and that might have been purchased with Platinum?

[Pandoran_Stallion]

I remember when I first started playing warframe I thought my weapons got upgraded with level, like the warframe.

 

So let me get this straight...  Max serration does +165% damage at maximum rank, and we want to make it so that if you rank a weapon up to level 30 it does +200% damage?  So basically a better, built-in serration mod that upgrades with weapon level?

 

Sign me up!

 

Also can we apply this to secondaries and (maybe) melees?  Although melee weapons would need to be adjusted, because pressurepoint only gives you +120% melee damage.

This will be applied to all other weapon types to balance base damage boosts. I think melee should be left alone, though, it's weak enough as it is.

[Jahadaya]

 

 

 

Shh. Peace, only dreams now. Let the jimmies unrustle and the calm flow through you. 

 

 

Edit: link

my mistake i thought jimmies being rustled meant being happy :3 i need to get up to date.

 

don't mean to derail the thread :P

[Drazhar14]

So you want to make the game even easier by removing a damage mod and increasing the damage stats?

 

You want DE to remove a possible income source for DE by removing a mod, that most likely everyone uses and that might have been purchased with Platinum?

DE said them-self serration was a mistake and they'd like to remove it. 

 

"One of the problems with looking at damage in Warframe (both for Tenno and enemies) is that there is no single change that can be made to easily 'fix' inconsistencies. Mods like Serration are obvious flaws in a system designed to be as customizable as possible, and we're not happy with forcing any players to build their Warframe in a particular fashion.

Although Serration is a great example of a Mod with too much strength, there's still no benefit to simply removing it. To do so would disrupt the balance of Tenno damage to favor the opposition, and we recognize that some higher level areas of Warframe would be inaccessible without the advantage Serration brings."

 

https://warframe.com/news/devstream-44-overview

[Edgedemon]

What exactly does that mean?

 

This isn't trying to solve the issue of enemy and weapon scaling - it's trying to solve the issue of "needed" base damage mods, that essentially contribute to killing build diversity. 

the point is moot, because even if you did have another slot you would just include another elemental mod of the same kind you are already using because it will get you more raw damage, if you keep that road you will want to remove elemental damage soon and since were here RoF also increases DPS remove those...

[Pandoran_Stallion]

my mistake i thought jimmies being rustled meant being happy :3 i need to get up to date.

 

don't mean to derail the thread :P

The more you know :)

I had that song stuck in my head anyway since I learned it for music theory, had to clear it from my system.

[Master_Marmot_Prime]

DE said them-self serration was a mistake and they'd like to remove it. 

 

"One of the problems with looking at damage in Warframe (both for Tenno and enemies) is that there is no single change that can be made to easily 'fix' inconsistencies. Mods like Serration are obvious flaws in a system designed to be as customizable as possible, and we're not happy with forcing any players to build their Warframe in a particular fashion.

Although Serration is a great example of a Mod with too much strength, there's still no benefit to simply removing it. To do so would disrupt the balance of Tenno damage to favor the opposition, and we recognize that some higher level areas of Warframe would be inaccessible without the advantage Serration brings."

 

https://warframe.com/news/devstream-44-overview

 

Yes I have read that, but wanting something is not the same as doing something. Wanting is much easier.

 

The suggested fix is not a balance. This is making some weapons that are already overpowered even more overpowered. "Although Serration is a great example of a Mod with too much strength".

 

And like I said, likely most people are using Serration, that might have been purchased with Plat. Plat that might have been bought with real money or through trading. If bought with real money they will lose potential Plat purchases. Seriously, who doesn't use Serration/ Point Blank?

[Pandoran_Stallion]

Yes I have read that, but wanting something is not the same as doing something. Wanting is much easier.

 

The suggested fix is not a balance. This is making some weapons that are already overpowered even more overpowered. "Although Serration is a great example of a Mod with too much strength".

 

And like I said, likely most people are using Serration, that might have been purchased with Plat. Plat that might have been bought with real money or through trading. If bought with real money they will lose potential Plat purchases. Seriously, who doesn't use Serration/ Point Blank?

   The fact of the matter is it's considered too powerful because its benefits outweigh everything else. Serration is barely enough to get some weapons halfway through the starchart. To that end it's not powerful enough, but it's required if you want to get anywhere with a weapon. This is just a way to level the playing field between weapon types.

 

   As for trading, there are plenty of other mods to go and sell, trust me. Vitality and Redirection are the first to come to mind, although corrupted mods are excellent as well. Losing 2 mods (3 if you count primed point blank) within the trading chat won't be a major issue, people will buy and sell other things. I don't think DE will see a difference in revenue.

 

  In response to your first post, I doubt it will make the game easier. The damage gain is from leveling, so forma will be even more of a pain (that's intended). Anything less than a level 30 weapon won't hit full potential. Base stats remain the same, so it's just a matter of making serration innate and based off weapon level. We're not buffing weapons by 3x damage right off the bat, because that would be insane and ridiculous. There are plenty of other core sinks as well, if that's an issue.

Edited January 13, 2015 by UpgradeInProgress

[Helch0rn]

+1 for built in Serration

 

but to build in multishot too as some people suggested is in my opinion not good.

Some weapons (Penta, Castanas, Angstrum) may suffer from this (depends on the build)

[Blakrana]

It's...a possible approach. Although I still feel like Serration and co's damage bonuses are hang overs from when weapons were just...useless compared to an Ability. Hypothetically, of course.

 

After all, if all things are equal, Intensify would be equal to Serration in strength; namely, they'd both come in at about 30%. Pretty typical boost in your standard RPG, in all fairness. But, as it stands, that's just how it looks from here.

 

In as much as 'power with the level' I'm generally in favour of that. I know it's my go to example, but on Phantasy Star Portable 2, every weapon could be upgraded statistically 10 times. To wit, Twin Saber (sic) weapons gained 6 damage every time you did this, so taking a set with 100 damage, they'd have 160 damage. Granted, Phantasy Star weapon diversity boiled down to 'what do you like to use, what's the best one you can actually use and like, what PA do you use with it?' than all this modding malarky, but still; power as you increase something by level seems reasonable enough.

 

Now...I'm honestly not sure where to stand on the 'actual scope' of the final increase but its a fair hypothetical. Personally, there's bit too much of an issue with 'MORE DAMAGE IS BETTER' over all; in the end, if you over kill, it's not getting much of anything. This isn't Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume, after all (Yes, Overkill is actively important in that game).

 

At the end of the day, hypothetically? Sure, support. Practically...we need to get around to accepting that 1000 and 10,000 are both equally irrelevant for an enemy that dies at 100 damage. For the sake of a blunt example. But that, as you've said, is another discussion. End of the day, our damage output will always have a relative relationship to the enemies health thresholds.

 

Sideline thoughts

 

When it comes to multi-shot and its 'must use' nature, I've figured one possible way we could change the mod is that we make it related to Status effects entirely. How?

 

By making it raise the cap on the number of procs per shot.

 

So...for the sake of argument, let's say a maxed Split Chamber gives you +2 Proc effects. 1 Bullet = 3 Procs then.

 

It's not increasing your flat damage. Indeed, weapons with horrendous status chance get...well, very little out of it. But for Status weapons, this would be great. Although Pistols may need a particularly close look; yeah, that's right Barrel Diffusion and Lethal Torrent, we're looking at you...

 

However, one advantage to this change to multishot? It's a new category of mod and, why yes, we could have a Melee version. Call it 'Crippling strike' or something. Sure someone else can come up with something better though, name wise.

[Lactamid]

You my friend want to open a can of worms. The op was just wanting to remove seration you want to change how weapons do damage period.

I do. I want that "quality" they spoke of, and this would be one of those overlapping fixes that imo is for the better.