What Needs To Be In Place For Stealth [De Please Consider]

[Vaskadar]

So, we are at a point in the game's development cycle that there should be some time to consider developing and expanding upon the game's potential for Stealth as a rewarding gameplay element. There have been a couple nods here and there for exploratory and stealth elements, but they're not focused in such a way that it creates rewarding stealth gameplay.

 

The revised Spy gametype will need to have some building blocks in place for it to be feasible to play in stealth.

 

Here are but a couple elements that will need to change to facilitate real, rewarding stealth gameplay. I've tried to make it concise and easy to read. I'm sure, that as just one person, I cannot account for everything; but, I'll try to cover the gist of the foundation that needs to be laid for stealth to be built up.

 

This is a living document. It is subject to revision. It is not perfect, but it will improve.

 

The AI Will Need Several States of Alertness

 

The artificial intelligence currently does not react appropriately to his friend next to him getting his head lopped off by an arrow. They don't do that and have ridiculously quick reaction to the player's presence. He should be alerted and put in a 'cautious' state, where he's more observant and less casual.

 

Relaxed (Un-alerted)

The artificial intelligence should be in a relaxed state until he clearly sees something that should be of concern, such as one of his patrol buddies getting killed. In this relaxed state, he's less aggressive and more likely to scout the area prior to sounding the alarm. Should he discover a body or the player, he'll move onto the next state. If he discovers multiple bodies, he should be frightened and calling out to nearby Grineer to reinforce the area (after a few seconds), but won't sound the full alarm just yet. Should the player kill the marine before they call out to their friends, the enemies in the adjacent room remain un-alerted.

 

Cautious (Alerted to something amiss)

In this heightened state of caution, the marine (let's just call him that for now), is more likely to call for reinforcements once he's discovered the player's location. If he sees the player running about for a certain period of time, he'll radio in reinforcements from the next room. If he does not discover the player's location for a set amount of time (most likely after searching the last known location), he'll revert back to his relaxed state.

 

Alerted

In this state, the marines should be shouting out to their other marines. Should the Tenno stay present and fight without evading them, they will sound the full alarm. This will call in heavier and more dangerous enemies to fight the player. Escaping from the last known location and resetting the alarm will call off the reinforcements, resetting to a cautious, or relaxed state (depending on whether or not marine bodies have been found before they are dissolved).

 

High Alert

The whole base/galleon/station is alerted. Enemies pour in from everywhere. Advanced enemy types are flooding the area and resetting the alarm will be incredibly difficult. Klaxons are sounding, doors go into lockdown (about as frequently as they currently do), that kind of thing. The biggest, baddest enemies will be present to fight the Tenno in this state of alert. The only way to revert is to flee and knock down the alerted state by one. You will not be able to use the same terminal twice, either.

 

Other important changes

The Artificial intelligence will need to have several reactions to the player's presence, or the presence of dead bodies, that kind of thing. If a marine sees his friend pinned to a wall, he shouldn't immediately go for the alarm, but he should definitely be alerted and searching the area for the source of the arrow.

 

Enemies should not always know exactly where the Tenno is, even when the whole base is on alert. If there's gunfire, the AI director should spawn some enemies in the last location known. With an AI director, stealth can be done in such a way that it's interesting and diverse, being highly rewarding and replayable.

 

Enemies won't always go after everyone in the group. If someone's remaining stealthy, enemies are likely to be drawn to their aggro, as opposed to someone else. This can create a meaningful team dynamic where one set of people goes loud, the other sneaks by.

 

Special Mods for Special Ops

For the stealth portion, you may not have enough spare mod slots to allocate towards noise dampeners, enemy radar, night vision, or light-absorbing materials. Hell, even Intruder doesn't really have a place. The idea though, is that these auxiliary mods would have special functions suited to espionage, information gathering, jamming nearby terminals, and the like. They would also have special slots that are separate from a Warframe's main mod set, and have no cost related to their implementation.

 

There are special mods only obtainable through stealth missions, too.

 

Just a couple examples would be...

-Intruder getting changed to reduce complexity of ciphers as opposed to extending time.

-Noise dampeners for movement

-Visualizations of enemy cones of view (within a certain range) and showing last known location

 

Lights, Height, and Movement Should Affect Stealthiness

As suggested elsewhere in the thread, Lighting should play a major part in stealthiness. These are all things that the game should do, not what it already does.

 

Turn off the Lights!

Accessing terminals will allow the player to turn off the lights. Low lighting reduces your chances of being detected. Warframes should come with a suite of sensory equipment that relays lighting, pressure changes, audibility, and states of detection. It is also easier for enemies without the right equipment to lose sight of the player and revert to a cautious state.

 

Get the Jump on Them!

Situating yourself in an elevated position means that enemies are far less likely to spot you.

 

Sprinting Without Dampeners Means Noisy Ninjas

Zipping through an area without the appropriate setup will make lots of noise, though it will require that the previously mentioned auxiliary mods are implemented. Banshee won't have to worry about this one bit.

 

Jam their Terminals!

Introducing the ability to select various functions within the Terminal would make stealth more viable, such as jamming all the terminals in a tile, preventing enemies from using them.

 

There will need to be other means of evading enemies, but yeah.

 

Rewarding Stealth

The experience acquired from stealth kills should be 5-10x higher than killing alerted enemies simply because of how difficult it will be to pull off effectively.

 

The drop likelihood should also be increased. Specific drop tables for stealth kills, etc.

 

(Ghost) A mission done in full stealth without killing enemies should provide a massive bonus.

-If an enemy enters a cautious state, it does not invalidate your stealth.

-This compensates players for having not killed a single enemy. Warframe is a loot-based game.

-The end-mission rewards for not killing a single enemy (and being completely stealthed) would be exclusive to stealth rewards

 

(Shadow) A mission done in full stealth (without going into the alerted state at all) should provide a major bonus.

 

(Stealth Objective Completed) An objective done in full stealth, but not the rest of the mission, should provide a good bonus.

 

(Discrete Completion) A mission done in partial stealth (reverting alarms to relaxed states) should provide a partial bonus.

 

Special Rooms

There will need to be rooms that go into lockdown when alarms go off. These rooms should contain rewards that are only obtainable from these particular locker rooms, like the Grineer Caches, except much more valuable.

 

Damage Dealt in Stealth

Firing upon an unwary opponent, completely unalerted to your presence should also provide an automatic critical hit.

 

Suppressed weapons (and melee weapons) receive a critical damage bonus to unwary targets. Specific weapons, like Daggers, Kunai, Bows, Suppressed Pistols (Some of them. No shotgun pistols.), and Suppressed Snipers should receive a larger bonus to stealth kill damage.

 

The Level Design

Level design will need a lot more alternate pathways and routes throughout to facilitate stealth. There will need to be vents and catwalks and other areas that the player can traverse throughout the tiles. We see some of this in the Corpus outpost with fair amounts of optional traversal spots, but it's not present in every tile, though it should be. The best place to start working on this though, would have to be the Grineer Galleons and the Corpus Ships tilesets.

 

There will need to be plenty of markings to denote potential stealth routes for players not yet familiar with the tiles, as they are procedurally placed.

 

The idea is that most stealth gameplay revolves around clever traversal to 'solve' an area. This is to make combat optional. I know DE can do this, as they worked on The Darkness II, and that game had some stealth portions to it. While it's not exactly a stealth-oriented game, they (the DE level designers) can design a good stealth-oriented mission. The pathways should be made obvious. Patrol areas should also be obvious.

 

Another problem posed in this particular necessity is the introduction of multiple doorways to each tile, connected by the same edge. For instance, one large doorway, one vent doorway, both connected to the next tile appropriately. This part will be extremely difficult to facilitate.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Vaskadar

[7grims]

A good and proper tread about stealth ;)

[_Malware]

how will ghost be obtained in exterminate

[Vaskadar]

how will ghost be obtained in exterminate

 

It won't. Simple.

[R34LM]

I like the idea of the ghost mode, but with the spawn rate and spawn style of enemies now, you'll get 10 of them crowding a small hallway and 10 just outside in the next room. That will have to get fixed as well.

 

For instance, go to Ceres. If you get the starting tile where you have to go down a pipe and then climb a landing, 8/10 you will have a crap ton of enemies right there. One run I had about 40 enemies in the tile right after the starting one. It was a larger space, but since I didn't do stealth, all enemies from within the tile fusterclucked towards me when the shooting started. Almost died.

 

 

Also........****ing NERF/FIX seekers....

Edited January 20, 2015 by R34LM

[Meice]

Meh, I don't think they're really going for the "third-person stealth game" in Warframe. Also, as far as I understood, running and gunning would be pretty much imposible since all you would get is orange doors:

 

-Run and gun

-Soldier runs down to the alarm and activates it.

-Lock down, everybody damn soldier comes in.

-Repeat for every room except where there's no enemies.

 

I guess maybe maybe, but this system would need quite a bit of tweaking and those major changes to AI... I don't know man, DE ain't known for changing huge chunks of the game, with the exception of Update 14 which brought like another game, but that was like the only time and look how long it took them to even buff Limbo which was quite, well, needed.

 

To summarize I don't think they really need this, all I want Warframe to be is a fun game where I can rek faces with my friends without worrying being punished for that.

[_Malware]

It won't. Simple.

so you want everything to get overhauled except for exterminate, which would turn it into the least desired mission as it is endless is the most desired and everyything else is split , doing that would make it like exterm will never be played, 

[Vaskadar]

Meh, I don't think they're really going for the "third-person stealth game" in Warframe. Also, as far as I understood, running and gunning would be pretty much imposible since all you would get is orange doors:

 

-Run and gun

-Soldier runs down to the alarm and activates it.

-Lock down, everybody damn soldier comes in.

-Repeat for every room except where there's no enemies.

 

I guess maybe maybe, but this system would need quite a bit of tweaking and those major changes to AI... I don't know man, DE ain't known for changing huge chunks of the game, with the exception of Update 14 which brought like another game, but that was like the only time and look how long it took them to even buff Limbo which was quite, well, needed.

 

To summarize I don't think they really need this, all I want Warframe to be is a fun game where I can rek faces with my friends without worrying being punished for that.

 

I'm not saying that every door/room will go into lockdown, nor am I suggesting to increase the rate of lockdown.

 

The game doesn't reward stealth gameplay, nor do enemies react appropriately to it. It's not like they couldn't or won't, but it is the next major thing that needs to be overhauled. They have done major revisions in the past, just not to stealth just yet. I'm not holding my breath, but I do hope that they do rework the system.

 

As for exterminate, it should have its own rewards, but ghosting through a mission means that you will forgo loot drops because you're not killing enemies. It should have its own class of reward for that.

 

Stealth on its own is supposed to be challenging and interesting, but optional.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Vaskadar

[Angelshard]

Personally I find that an alert state to enemies wouldn't solve anything, going in stealthily in a group would still leave you sneaking around while the rest of your team creates havoc and be no different.

 

In solo mode, you'd spend annoyingly long sneaking around, as all guards have random paths and just one spotting you would ruing your ghost attempt, forcing you to retry the level.

 

generally true stealth and fast paced shooter doesn't go very well together (look up Extra Credits stealth video

)

 

Personally I've suggested some changes I think could work and I'll repost them here again

 

For the stealth part, why not play with the light mechanics, they did it with Mirage, if you add lights that can be turned off at consoles or shot to create darkness and add semi invisibility (maybe in a 3 m radius, removed for 10 sec if you attack or use powers) you could add alot of stealth, sure your enemies would still search last spot, but they would be unable to see you if you moved away fast enough.

 

This would also allow players another way to avoid getting killed in endless runs, giving DE options to make more interrsting enemies, instead of the "spawn more and overwhelm them with numbers" concept.

 

Also why not use the alarms more effectivly, instead of just making more enemies appear (no one really cares) make each alarm raise the lvl of enemies by 10 (maybe not that much but). Add alot more alarm spot and suddenly a tenno team could be in real trouble.

 

If they can run through fast enough, sure you can still kill them all, but you better not miss  too many, 3-4 alarms and you could be in way over your head. Personally I like the idea that you just rush through a mission like a whrilwind leaving no one alive to warn those further ahead that you're coming. It's kinda ninja to me.

 

Also make infest the "spawn huge waves and get slaughtered enemy" and buff up indvidual corpus and grineer while reducing numbers. That way people who likes to slaughter huge numbers of enemies can go against them while the rest can rush silently through harder enemies that requires more skill to take down.

 

Cause let's face it, we all love to just wade through waves of enemies, blasting them to bits and laughing as we shrug off the wet towels they're trying to hurt us with.

 

As for the reward part, make more rooms like the treasure rooms in Void, let the doors close only if an alarm is sounded, that way stealth players can sneak around getting good loot while remaining undetected.

[ARavenousPanda]

also enemies need to have lower awareness to "up" so that if we do use a catwalk we arent auto spotted. think dishonored

[Vaskadar]

Updated first post.

[GTG3000]

Warframe certainly should have stealth, but there's a long way to go before it's viable.

 

First come the rewards for stealthy missions.

 

Second come some framework for stealth (alertness level, enemies not noticing tenno randomly, maybe even some stealth mods. Chameleon anyone? I think a mod for the helios to point out nearby enemies scanner-style would be great for stealth.)

 

Third come actual variations of missions based on stealth/non-stealth approach (actual meaning to lotus saying "high flight" about targets, letting players know wether or not the target is tough and will fight to death or try to escape as soon as the alarm is sounded, or a deception that turns into a  permanently high-alert sabotage if you're detected), perhaps through a system similar to the nightmare missions.

 

Then they would have to make a pass over the existing tiles and determine if they offer enough in terms of stealth pathing, and that includes things like "where AI patrols and spawns", not just airducts. Just making sure that tenno can reliably use the existing shortcuts without being seen at random would go a long way for stealthy missions.

 

All in all, support.

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

They would also have special slots that are separate from a Warframe's main mod set, and have no cost related to their implementation.

 

Why would stealth mods need to be separate? The way I figure it choosing between stealth mods and non-stealth mods should be a decision made by the player in order to specialize in a certain playstyle. Taking away the cost of implementation means that the player won't need to make any choices in regards to their mod loudout. Which goes against the whole purpose of modding in the first place.

 

 

The experience acquired from stealth kills should be 5-10x higher than killing alerted enemies simply because of how difficult it will be to pull off effectively.

 

I've seen this idea floated around a bunch but I'm not really a fan of it. Stealth gameplay, at its core, is primarily about avoidance of adveraries rather than engagement. If anything players should be rewarded for every enemy they didn't kill rather than the opposite.

 

With this implementation, once a player has killed a single enemy(and thus negated the chance at achieving "ghost" status) they will from that point forward be encouraged to kill every enemy they encounter in order to gain the most reward.

 

Also, I made a thread a little while ago with a suggestion for how rewards should be handled in stealth. You can give it a read if you'd like. It's actually along the same lines as your suggestions minus the stealth kills thing.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/355821-stealth-rewards-system/#entry3957192

Edited January 22, 2015 by (PS4)KaxMcc

[ENIAK_Prime]

When I stated once before that Stealth would need a lot of ground-up changes to actually work, THIS is exactly the kind of stuff I meant. WELL DONE, man! I have before mentioned that Stealth needs to be rewarded more in much the same fashion you mention, and I had a whole topic dedicated to requesting more secret passages the Tenno can use in EVERY tileset, just because it would be the simplest addition DE could make to improve Stealth immensely so that ALL frames could do it, not just Loki/Ash.

 

A few notes I'd like to add, though...

 

1. ON ENEMY ALERTNESS

An enemy that has spotted the Tenno shouldn't just slide up to "cautious". Actual, visible confirmation of Tenno presence in the area should be an immediate cause to jack that individual's alert status up to "Alerted". The allies he calls in should arrive in a "cautious" status, though. Since they don't know whether their comrade is telling the truth or crying wolf.

 

2. ON SPECIAL MODS.

OH DUDE. I -JUST- HAD THAT THOUGHT THIS MORNING ON THE WAY TO WORK. That whole, "having a mod to see the actual field of view of all enemies on the field" thing! I think that perhaps the mod should cease functioning on individuals who are aware of your presence, that way when you're in a fight, the extra un-necessary visuals don't obstruct your vision. Seeing the enemy's range of vision should be something that only occurs while you're undetected, to help you sneak better.

 

3. ON LIGHTING

I think that turning out/down the lights should put enemies in a cautious state, and enemies that enter the darkened area are likely to go after the console to turn the lights back on. However, in direct spite of their heightened state of alertness, being in the dark should severely reduce their range of vision, making it much easier to sneak around them. To a tenno with the mod installed that lets them see enemy field of vision, they would see those cones become significantly narrower, like narrow flashlights.

 

Again, very nice topic and +1.

[Dillon_J]

if they awarded mods at the end of missions you only have a chance to get through perfect stealth more people would engage in stealth.  unless this becomes a thing no one will do full stealth missions.

[Angelshard]

Also (I saw this suggested in another thread and I'm shamelessly gonna steal it) let enemy go after players that shoots or make noise.

 

to elaborate:

 

If you go in as a team, guys 1,2 and 3 can go in guns blazing rambling and killing through the level, this will make enemies focus on them, new enemes will spawn in greater numbers around them and alert stauts will be higher around them.

 

Player 4 meanwhile use an alternate route to target, there is less enemies on this route and they're less alert, as they don't knowe a fourth tenno is on the loose. this would mean that even if most of your team feels like blazing through the level you can still sneak in through the back door and get the data masses while they struggle with locked doors and massive numbers of nullifiers.

[VoidPunch]

I think the Special reward rooms only accessible through stealthy means with great rewards is an excellent idea for promoting stealth in any game mode (besides endless and defense types of course) That alone would be a great implementation for stealth until they rework it if they do that is.

[Vaskadar]

First post has been updated to accommodate some great suggestions in the thread.

[---Merchant---]

I hate stealth but op is good no-homo at all

+1 for this to happen [or remove stealth from game and replaci it with something that you have ''resources''to pull off

[Vaskadar]

I just want it to add more depth to the gameplay, too. I mean, player choice is pretty important. This adds to that. I don't think stealth should ever be removed, just expanded upon in such a way that it makes the game better overall.

[-Narauko-]

Some smaller fixes they could introduce to the AI at the moment is:

 

You kill an enemy with a silent weapon any enemy that is near them instantly alerted and knows exactly where you are. Put the AI into a investigative state that examin the death rather than doing a 180 spin and start shooting.

 

AI vision needs toning down.

 

Just these changes would make it easyier to actually do stealth runs in current gamemodes. I don't want to see AI become $&*&*#(%& but there only response at the moment is to instantly shoot in the direction of the player alerting everything after you just used a weapon specifically for stealth. Could understand from a firearm.

[Vaskadar]

Definitely. The cone of view for these AI is just too damn big sometimes.

 

Once through investigating, they should search the area for the player. If the player is in a darker area, they won't really be able to find the player.

 

Should the player turn off the lights, the AI will go and try to interact with the nearest terminal. That kind of thing.

[unknow99]

Spy 2.0 is coming soon , so I really hope that some things discussed here would come into the game one day!

 

+1.

[Vaskadar]

The Spy 2.0 mission revision will require that they update a lot of the corpus ship tiles. You should get some pretty great stuff for finishing without setting off an alarm, if they design it correctly.

 

To facilitate this, though... they will really have to do work on the AI, as well. I'm not saying Skyrim levels of dumb AI, but more along the lines of splinter cell, mark of the ninja, that kind of thing. There will need to be a sort of stealth indicator, too.

[Vaskadar]

I sure hope that they continue to expand upon the stealth elements of the game. Please excuse this revival.