Stealth - Stages Of Awareness

[Mirriky]

After reading the Spy 2.0 preview, I figured it would be time to dig up my comment an a community hot topic that got a solid number of upvotes.

 

Stealth

 

Regarding stealth, in my opinion, hiding isn't the right way to go. How the AI reacts when noticing your presence is the core of any stealth game, and warframe is very lacking in that regard.

Right now, if a single enemy catches you in the corner of their eye, the other guy other side of entire room instantly knows you are there too. 

Even if I kill an enemy before the animation to lift their weapon finishes, I cut them down, no noise, no gun fire, but everyone still knows I'm there.

 

There needs to be stages in awareness.

Unaware: They just walk around on patrol, just like normal

Passive Suspicion: The enemy might hear a faint noise with no visual, or a dark shadow in the distance.

In this stage they will keep their gun lowered and will investigate what the heard or saw (by this I mean tenno are in the shadows at least 15m away or seen out of the corner of the eye for a short time)

This can also count if hearing another soldier scream/yell out of surprise (mentioned later)

Active Suspicion: The enemy sees something that is a potential threat, or heard a gunshot in the distance with no idea of what caused it. (Tenno running from cover to cover in the light and line of sight, but only visible for a second at most). This can also count if hearing another soldier scream/yell genetically (surprise, not raising the alarm)

In this stage they will call out and alert all other enemies in the room. They do not lower from this alarm stage, and will actively be searching with guns raised and ready.

Discovery: The enemy will raise the alarm for combat, but the time it takes from this depends on the level of suspicion.

From unaware they might freak out for a split second, as you would with a warframe appearing out of nowhere, before raising the alarm and shooting. (honestly, you were having a nice day, quiet patrol, then blade wielding maniac jumps out and runs toward you. Yes you will scream)

From passive suspicion, discovery would take the time it does to yell, or aim their weapon and shoot at the target

'Active' takes no time at all to start shooting at you, as they already have their gun raised, and gunshot means alerting everyone in the room of your location

 

Fit timing to what you would do for that situation. Just with these stages I feel it would greatly improve stealth instead of every enemy having a psychic link, eagle eyes, and instant reaction times.

 

This is all my personal opinion when it comes to attempting stealth missions.

 

Oh yea, and watching your friend get shot in the head next to you classifies as "active suspicion"

 

Edit2:

How would this work Rambo style?

Imagine starting a mission, walking through the first door and shooting the guy down the hall before he has a chance to turn around, you hear a shout from behind the corner so you run past it and unload your weapon towards the source of the sound. You manage to take down 1 or 2 enemies before they realise what is actually happening, then the rest of the room starts to fight back as they come to their senses and realise that tenno are on board and about to cause real trouble.

Meanwhile one of the guys at the back of the room runs to the alarm panel and signals the rest of the ship to what is happening. Bringing everything else on board to alert.

 

Because right now if one enemy sees you, everyone starts shooting that instant. If you shoot someone next to another enemy, they act like nothing happens. There is no immersion in that, and that is what is really missing from the start of those loud games.

 

How would it work in stealth?

So long as you stay behind cover, move slowly, keep behind the enemy, they won't notice you.

If you are off in the distance and the only catch a glimpse, they will walk up and investigate.

If and enemy lets off a shout because you swung your sword too late, the others will be harder to take out (because you messed up)

 

Right now, if they see you at all, everyone knows where you are and starts shooting.

 

Edit1:

Suspicion bar?

I think it's best not to have a suspicion bar.

The reason Assassins creed uses these is because stealth is the core mechanic of the game. The idea is to stay hidden 80% of the time to avoid fighting large groups of enemies, with the option to throw that aside and take them all on.

Warframe is about fighting, with stealth being something that is optional, adds pacing, immersion, strategy, etc.

I think it is best for stealth to be shown in the enemies noise and animation. Those two departments are possibly the strongest in their abilities with this game.

Edited January 28, 2015 by cam-o-flage20

[GunDownGrace]

this is a good idea,in alot of good stealth games i played this was a big feature,this would be a great thing for a new stealth rework

[EmptyDevil]

Good idea.

[frankonator21]

i really lik this idea, it would definately make the game more realistic and make it more like assassins creed, or something, i feel lately DE has been focusing mainly on new content such as new weapons  frames etc but i feel they should also focus more onto the actual gameplay, they are only people though and they are always pressed with new things to make, fix, etc but i feel it is in their power to make such a change i like this idea though

,

[Thyriell]

Why cant we have this?

It doesn't force people to play stealth, it just gives people that do more initiative and immersion to do it.

[frankonator21]

it would also help solo players a bunch

[Mirriky]

Why cant we have this?

It doesn't force people to play stealth, it just gives people that do more initiative and immersion to do it.

 

Exactly my point, it also adds immersion for those who choose to run and gun from the very beginning, having enemies react to their presence and giving the mission a bit of pacing, allowing the atmosphere of surprise at the start to warm up into full scale battle on a ship as you start gunning through the tile sets

[EmptyDevil]

The different stages should also have a timer for how long the enemy will stay in that state. Similar to Metal Gear Solid/Rising, if you hide out of the enemy's view and they can't find you in a certain amount of time of investigating, they drop an awareness/suspicion stage.

[Bizzaro21]

we could use something like, a suspicion bar like assassins creed, first they stare a bit at u, when the bar turns red, they come at suspession location, blade at hand, when the red bar is full, they start combat. Just an idea to add on yours, anyway u got my +1

[Mirriky]

The different stages should also have a timer for how long the enemy will stay in that state. Similar to Metal Gear Solid/Rising, if you hide out of the enemy's view and they can't find you in a certain amount of time of investigating, they drop an awareness/suspicion stage.

 

In passive, yes. But when you are on patrol, you don't 'dismiss' a gunshot. You find out who fired it and why.

Thats something that never made sense to me.

[Mirriky]

we could use something like, a suspicion bar like assassins creed, first they stare a bit at u, when the bar turns red, they come at suspession location, blade at hand, when the red bar is full, they start combat. Just an idea to add on yours, anyway u got my +1

 

My opinion: This becomes too stealth oriented and kinda strange. It never felt normal for me when playing AC games and this happened. Just make it very clear in the body language what stage they are in (lazy movement for patrol, frequent searching for passive, gun raised for active, and... well I guess shooting for alert)

[Angelshard]

Just to be the devils advocate (note I like stealth and would love to see some stealth focused missions)

 

Warframe at it's core isn't a stealth game, the pace and mission types isn't geared towards it. What makes stealth games work isn't merely an enemy status bar, it's also the design of the level, and in many instances the ability to load and try again, to overcome an obstacle unnoticed. 

 

Addding stealth to warframe in a greater degree (something I'm all for) would require a majro rework of the tileset. Predictable enemy patrols, so that you could learn their patterns and avoid them, introduction of mechanics like light and shadow (more than just mirage), and most likely you can only play these mission solo or with a friend anyways as a PUG would just go blazing through anyhow.

 

What I'm saying is that while I'd love more stealth just adding alert status to enemies wouldn't really make a difference with the way spawn, tiles and enemy patrols works right now.

 

Personally I'd prefer that DE dedicate a team to making a single type of stealth mission, use it as an alert and then read the feedback, this way it probably wouldn't be introduced until a year from now. But instead of just trying to patch the current gameplay into a stealth/shooter hybrid (something I've yet to see work in any game) they oculd make some truly awesome stealth missions.

 

Edit: spelling mistakes

Edited January 28, 2015 by Angelshard

[Mirriky]

Added the Edit1 to the original post regarding my thoughts on suspicion bars (bad idea)

Edited January 28, 2015 by cam-o-flage20

[Mirriky]

Just to be the devils advocare (note I like stealth and would love to see some stealth focused missions)

-snip-

 

I completely understand where you are coming from, and stealth should not be something used in every game mode.

 

However there are already mission types, and more coming (Spy2.0), that require stealth to some degree to get the best reward. Problem is it doesn't support a proper collection of mechanics, as the enemy either sees you or they don't.

 

By adding awareness, it allows players to jump into a game and feel like they haven't been seen yet (like a ninja?). Most will likely jump in and start gunning them down left right and center straight away, but the enemy will at least react realistically to that instead of magic awareness to your exact position from the first gunshot. Making is more progressive as the enemy realises what is happening, this may last 10 seconds tops with combat, but I think it would add so much more to the atmosphere by doing so.

 

I feel the mechanic I listed at the start will help immersion for both loud and quiet players and runs.

 

Imagine starting a mission, walking through the first door and shooting the guy down the hall, you hear a shot or two from around the corner so you run out into the open and start hurling bullets in their direction. You take down 2 or 3 before they realise what is actually happening, then the rest of the room starts to fight back as they come to their senses. Meanwhile one guy at the back of the room runs to the alarm panel and signals the rest of the ship to what is happening.

 

Because right now if one enemy sees you, everyone starts shooting that instant. If you shoot someone next to another enemy, they act like nothing happens.

 

There is no immersion in that, and that is what I want to see

(now added to original post)

Edited January 28, 2015 by cam-o-flage20

[Angelshard]

I completely agree that it would make missions like deception, rescue and spy more interresting.

 

I just wish that instead of throwing out 2.0 versions of these missions they would make a complete overhaul for stealth and then release it as something akin to arcwing, a special type of missions that had different mechanics built in to support stealth from the bottom up rather than trying to force it into the current gameplay, which really isn't suitable to stealth in it's current incarnation.

 

And I agree that when stealth missions starts to work, states of alarm will most certainly be needed.

[zoboso]

I completely agree that it would make missions like deception, rescue and spy more interresting.

 

I just wish that instead of throwing out 2.0 versions of these missions they would make a complete overhaul for stealth and then release it as something akin to arcwing, a special type of missions that had different mechanics built in to support stealth from the bottom up rather than trying to force it into the current gameplay, which really isn't suitable to stealth in it's current incarnation.

 

And I agree that when stealth missions starts to work, states of alarm will most certainly be needed.

 

States of alarm only work if the enemy does not automatically know where we are, unfortunately once alerted always alerted is a unappreciated problem.

[Mirriky]

States of alarm only work if the enemy does not automatically know where we are, unfortunately once alerted always alerted is a unappreciated problem.

 

Have you tried hacking the alarm twice after lockdown?

Or once after it's been activated?

 

The ship is now unalerted

This is a feature right now

 

As for 'automatically knowing where you are', thats what this is trying to change

Edited January 28, 2015 by cam-o-flage20

[as3mbus]

This my additional opinion, when alarm is off tenno can detect enemy an their LoS in short radius and find a gap in their sight to strike the enemies.

Overall the idea is good. But first we need more stealth reward to attract ppl being more stealthy

[Shiala]

I'm definately tired of the psycic link enemies have. I'd love to see some of this stuff implemented in game

[Mirriky]

Overall the idea is good. But first we need more stealth reward to attract ppl being more stealthy

 

We currently have one game mode, and another coming.

It would also annoy a lot of players to have a reward for using a broken system.

Change the system and add a reward at the same time.

Otherwise you are stuck with "why reward something that isn't working", and "why fix something that doesn't have a reward"

Edited January 28, 2015 by cam-o-flage20

[Angelshard]

as for rewards several things have been suggested in numerous topics on subject.

 

Personally I still favour my own suggestion (surprise!) of adding void-like treasure rooms to the map that lock down if the alarm is sounded.

[Mirriky]

as for rewards several things have been suggested in numerous topics on subject.

 

Personally I still favour my own suggestion (surprise!) of adding void-like treasure rooms to the map that lock down if the alarm is sounded.

 

......thats incredible

[zoboso]

Have you tried hacking the alarm twice after lockdown?

Or once after it's been activated?

 

The ship is now unalerted

This is a feature right now

 

As for 'automatically knowing where you are', thats what this is trying to change

 

I have found this to be true on paper not in practice, due to enemies that are already alerted not becoming unaltered, is also annoying, but less so than having the enemy always know where I am because I'd rather the enemies cling to my noisy teammate than me so I could stealth even if he does not want to.

[Mirriky]

I have found this to be true on paper not in practice, due to enemies that are already alerted not becoming unaltered, is also annoying, but less so than having the enemy always know where I am because I'd rather the enemies cling to my noisy teammate than me so I could stealth even if he does not want to.

 

Agreed, something I think needs work.

(enemies forgetting there is a tenno in front of them because the alarm says so does sound odd however)

Edited January 28, 2015 by cam-o-flage20

[zoboso]

I have found this to be true on paper not in practice, due to enemies that are already alerted not becoming unaltered, is also annoying, but less so than having the enemy always know where I am because I'd rather the enemies cling to my noisy teammate than me so I could stealth even if he does not want to.

 

Agreed, something I think needs work.

(enemies forgetting there is a tenno in front of them because the alarm says so does sound odd however)

 

What we are talking about is most obvious in exterminate. For example, we are staring in a room I have cleared while the alarms are on.

If objective indicator is red it means that there is an alerted enemy ahead. Even if I turn of the alarm enemy signified by the mini-map way-point remains alerted. Contrast that with when the Icon shows green (this means more enemies could spawn but have not done so yet) and I turn off the alarm, The next enemy I see will have spawned unaltered, making it trickier to use the alarms mechanic for stealth.