The Recent Survival Changes Have Completely Messed Up Life Support Again.

[CrazyCatLad]

Was surviving solo with my Nekros in T2 today. O2 has ended at 24:47, didn't use life support pods.

 

 

 

When was that? I didn't hear.

They didn't touch Desecrate. His info is wrong.

[taiiat]

No offense intended, but your testing and data collection methods need an overhaul if you cannot reproduce this.

Going from leaving at 30 or 40 minutes because I've had enough, to leaving before 15 minutes because life support has run out? That's a big change. Going from a handful of drops from the lotus left wanting, to none left? That's a big change. I'm talking solo here. Same frame and loadout before and after patch.

i will skip around the Solar Map to different Survivals, continuing to check each handfuls of times.

i suppose i could also slow the rate i'm killing Enemies, to try and simulate an earlier point of Players starting to slow their rate of Killing Enemies.

duly note however it is fully intended that Life Support Pods are to be used. the amount of Life Support that drops from Enemies is not supposed to completely sustain the Match. the Life Support Pods force Players to move.

[XxCurtennoxX]

i will skip around the Solar Map to different Survivals, continuing to check each handfuls of times.

i suppose i could also slow the rate i'm killing Enemies, to try and simulate an earlier point of Players starting to slow their rate of Killing Enemies.

duly note however it is fully intended that Life Support Pods are to be used. the amount of Life Support that drops from Enemies is not supposed to completely sustain the Match. the Life Support Pods force Players to move.

I know that, i mentioned in my original post that Lotus doesn't give enough Pods. Paired with the low drop rate for LS from enemies, it's much more of a struggle now.

[cx-dave]

i will skip around the Solar Map to different Survivals, continuing to check each handfuls of times.

i suppose i could also slow the rate i'm killing Enemies, to try and simulate an earlier point of Players starting to slow their rate of Killing Enemies.

 

You don't have to. On the tiles I mentioned I'm killing at 30 kills per minute. It should be obvious.

[taiiat]

You don't have to. On the tiles I mentioned I'm killing at 30 kills per minute. It should be obvious.

why is it that low? are there still 'dips' in the Spawns?

are Enemies not coming to you?

has TTK started to increase?

having difficulty evaluating today, extra bad at remembering to use Life Support Pods. just means more testing.

Edited February 11, 2015 by taiiat

[plznohurtme]

why is it that low? are there still 'dips' in the Spawns?

are Enemies not coming to you?

has TTK started to increase?

having difficulty evaluating today, extra bad at remembering to use Life Support Pods. just means more testing.

 

The whole point being that 30kpm used to be plenty to easily get you to 20m and only really begin to be an issue when pushing for 40m+ (where in general you'd have to average more due to needing higher damage weapons/faster kills).

[taiiat]

-snip-

Survival was much to easy, now it isn't as much.

if it's this change is showcasing other issues, those need to be pointed out, not pointing fingers at the wrong thing.

Edited February 11, 2015 by taiiat

[Lynxh]

Survival was much to easy, now it isn't as much.

if it's this change is showcasing other issues, those need to be pointed out, not pointing fingers at the wrong thing.

 

This begs the question of to what/where the balance goal actually is/lies. What is suppose to determine difficulty in survival? In most endless modes it's the escalation of enemy resistance/assault which by nature makes it harder to keep progressing the mission type. Survival is the only type to rely on rng to keep progressing alongside this. Now I'm not necessarily voting for removing that aspect, because it promotes the "always on the move" aspect that I actually enjoy. But it's something to keep in mind.

 

I'd like to add that maybe it's a good idea to get away from rng air drops, without removing the "on the move" aspect. Like for instance, more lotus drops but with shorter air supply. Or added hack terminals as a variation to help slow the venting or release additional air. Something a little more reliable then rng. I'm okay with it staying the way it is to though XD, just suggesting it due to the seemingly "endless" balancing/tweaking of spawns and air drop rates.

 

As for the reason why I'm having issues solo now, I'm gonna gonna say it's enemy spawns. Why you ask? I had dead moments. You know, the kind where it's completely silent and you have to cross 1,5 tile to find an enemy. That and that's just my "feeling". Sorry, I don't count my kills/air caps per minute so I have nothing much substantial to provide other then confirming I am experiencing dead moments and a general feeling that enemies presence is lacking especially early on. What exactly is the cause of that I dunno.

 

I just want to add that I'm primarily a Survival player, the situation being what it is I'm to frustrated *after consistently botched runs* to even bother playing that anymore. So I'm hoping for this to be resolved soon.

[plznohurtme]

Survival was much to easy, now it isn't as much.

if it's this change is showcasing other issues, those need to be pointed out, not pointing fingers at the wrong thing.

 

Please by all means show me where DE said "Survival was too easy so we made it harder"

 

Hint: You won't be able to, the changes to spawning in survival were made to even out spawns and in turn due to higher spawns they reduced the drop rate on Life Support.  Solo didn't have spawning problems to begin with so now that we're killing the same amount as previously it is not going as far, however when playing multiplayer you're getting more spawns and in turn more Life Support which evens it out.

 

After having issues with it solo I hopped into a friend's game (he'd had the same issues) and we ended up using 2 Life Support Pods to break 20 minutes and it was a joke.  It was just as easy if not easier as it always had been.

 

I'm pointing at exactly what the repercussions of what DE did to try to make Survival better... which is hurting solo Survival.

[taiiat]

I'd like to add that maybe it's a good idea to get away from rng air drops, without removing the "on the move" aspect. Like for instance, more lotus drops but with shorter air supply. Or added hack terminals as a variation to help slow the venting or release additional air. Something a little more reliable then rng. I'm okay with it staying the way it is to though XD, just suggesting it due to the seemingly "endless" balancing/tweaking of spawns and air drop rates.

not the first time i've heard things vaguely similar to that i think, may bring such things up (/again).

As for the reason why I'm having issues solo now, I'm gonna gonna say it's enemy spawns. Why you ask? I had dead moments. You know, the kind where it's completely silent and you have to cross 1,5 tile to find an enemy. That and that's just my "feeling".

What exactly is the cause of that I dunno.

i have been seeing dips in Enemies (sometimes severe dips) from time to time.

ultimately, and unfortunately, some Tiles are just generally bleh for Enemy Spawns. staying away from those is recommended. (and ofcourse the age old need for Rooms to have many entrances for Enemies to spawn out of LoS and then approach).

Survival Spawns have been heavily tweaked, but some Tiles are just... bad. for Enemy Spawns, that is.

some additional supplementary systems may be something of a means to an end. however making Enemy Spawns more aggressive on higher 'Difficulty' Survivals is a much quicker implementation. Enemy Spawns in first 5 Minutes are definitely an issue sometimes. have even had less than 10 Enemies within ~150 seconds. scary stuff.

Edit:

Please by all means show me where DE said "Survival was too easy so we made it harder"

when conversing about Survival. like other decisions, happened with much examination of much playtesting.

Edit2:

as for intended 'Difficulty' - Oxygen is supposed to matter, but not be the limiting factor.

Edited February 12, 2015 by taiiat

[plznohurtme]

when conversing about Survival. like other decisions, happened with much examination of much playtesting.

 

 

I'm not sure what you're on about here, because it wasn't a difficulty anything... here's exactly what was in the patch notes:

 

 

Survival Spawning Update

 

To simulate waves and grouped up enemies, previously survival enemy spawns cycled on and off for short periods of time.  While it was a simple way of adding the desired pacing, we found that it was possible for players to get 'in sync' with killing enemies at certain times which left gaps of time where there were no enemies to kill and no enemies spawning, especially in higher level Missions with four players.

 

Spawning now fluctuates dynamically with each enemy spawned.  Max spawn rate is the same, but it's now the time between individual enemy spawns which changes instead of a blanket 'on' or 'off' state for all enemy spawning.  Hopefully you will start to see more consistent spawning in higher level Missions with four players, as well as squads of enemies attacking together.  In our tests we found that there wasn't a notable difference in low level Missions.

 

Small life support drop rate was tweaked to compensate for the changes.

Although we have playtested extensively, we are always interested in your feedback.  Please be sure to let us know how these changes may have affected your gameplay experience in the appropriate subforum: https://forums.warfr...um/237-mission/

 

Note everything talked about was balancing groups and making enemy spawns better.  It also specifically mentions four players in higher level survival... and it says that despite their testing they would like feedback... which is exactly what this is.  Clearly they didn't do enough solo testing because it's wildly inconsistent now and it is harder than previously due simply to the reduction of Life Support drops.

 

I personally never had a problem with spawns in solo Survival (I won't speak to anyone else here, because I haven't seen others say one way or the other) so it stands to reason that if the spawns weren't a problem before... lowering the number of Life Support drops would directly affect the ability to do solo Survival.

Edited February 12, 2015 by plznohurtme

[taiiat]

lowering the number of Life Support drops would directly affect the ability to do solo Survival.

to get back on topic, if there are issues found that are not Life Support Drop volume, and rather problems that matter more with Life Support Drops being less lenient, those would be important to point out, and will be reviewed.

we want to know what is keeping Players from getting enough Life Support Drops, not that they aren't getting enough. the causes of the effect.

[plznohurtme]

to get back on topic, if there are issues found that are not Life Support Drop volume, and rather problems that matter more with Life Support Drops being less lenient, those would be important to point out, and will be reviewed.

we want to know what is keeping Players from getting enough Life Support Drops, not that they aren't getting enough. the causes of the effect.

 

Do you understand that DE lowered the amount of Life Support drops?  They quite literally lowered it.  In group play this was countered by effectively having more enemies, however in solo the number of enemies were never a problem to begin with so it is a net loss.  There is nothing that players are doing differently it is the backend change DE made that's it nothing else.

 

People didn't just suddenly become worse over the course of a patch when DE lowered the drop rates................................................

[taiiat]

-snip-

i asked for what occurrences were keeping Players from being able to play consistently, to meet the stricter Life Support Drops (which is like it is for a very specific reason, and it is 'difficulty').

the lower Life Support as it stands is very intentional. however it is likely going to expose issues with the system more. things that make it fluctuate lower than it should. things that you wouldn't have noticed before when Life Support grew on trees.

so for anyone that would like to continue improving Survival, please continue noting down your experiences but more importantly, note any issues that seems to occur, so some attention may be focused on those issues and hopefully ironed out.

[XxCurtennoxX]

The solo problem is gonna be a major pain for newer players trying to get through the planet nodes and no one else is playing them. They're gonna struggle if they can't find a squad for survival.

[plznohurtme]

i asked for what occurrences were keeping Players from being able to play consistently, to meet the stricter Life Support Drops (which is like it is for a very specific reason, and it is 'difficulty').

the lower Life Support as it stands is very intentional. however it is likely going to expose issues with the system more. things that make it fluctuate lower than it should. things that you wouldn't have noticed before when Life Support grew on trees.

so for anyone that would like to continue improving Survival, please continue noting down your experiences but more importantly, note any issues that seems to occur, so some attention may be focused on those issues and hopefully ironed out.

 

You don't seem to understand for whatever reason... The overall amount of Life Support isn't supposed to be lower... it was lowered to make up for the differing spawn rate.  The spawn rates don't appear to be any different for playing solo so it just screws solo over.  You really need to understand this and I don't know what you're missing here because it's pretty clear cut, and please don't respond to me with the same exact stuff you've been saying it isn't pertinent to the actual problem.

 

Also something of note (decided to track tonight before bed):

 

Derelict Survival run #1 10:25 - 310 kills, 1 Life Support tower up (lost here)

Derelict Survival run #2 10:25 - 330 kills, 3 Life Support towers up (went to 20m here)

Eris - Phalan Survival 10:39 - 501 kills, 5+ Life Support towers up (stopped at 10m here)

 

When I do more Derelict Survival I'll update more, but there definitely seems to be some pretty large inconsistency in drop rates since 20 extra enemies killed doesn't equate to 60% Life Support (that would be 15 Life Support drops difference).  There also seems to be a differing rate of spawns with Derelict vs Star Chart though I haven't done enough on the Star Chart to really get a feel beyond what is above.  Every Derelict Survival run I have done has come out to ~30-35 kills per minute so the spawns seem to be relatively stable here (I've done at least 9 Derelict runs in the last two days).

Edited February 13, 2015 by plznohurtme

[cx-dave]

why is it that low? are there still 'dips' in the Spawns?

are Enemies not coming to you?

has TTK started to increase?

having difficulty evaluating today, extra bad at remembering to use Life Support Pods. just means more testing.

 

I'm managing to kill enough enemies in solo play. The problem is either not enough personal life support drops or the rate at which the stationary life supports posts spawn is too low. Take your pick. Increase both or one of the two. Bottom line is we need more air.

Edited February 12, 2015 by cx-dave

[CrazyCatLad]

Please by all means show me where DE said "Survival was too easy so we made it harder"

 

Hint: You won't be able to, the changes to spawning in survival were made to even out spawns and in turn due to higher spawns they reduced the drop rate on Life Support.  Solo didn't have spawning problems to begin with so now that we're killing the same amount as previously it is not going as far, however when playing multiplayer you're getting more spawns and in turn more Life Support which evens it out.

 

After having issues with it solo I hopped into a friend's game (he'd had the same issues) and we ended up using 2 Life Support Pods to break 20 minutes and it was a joke.  It was just as easy if not easier as it always had been.

 

I'm pointing at exactly what the repercussions of what DE did to try to make Survival better... which is hurting solo Survival.

 

Solo survival is a joke now in many places.  I barely won a Syndicate Survival...killing just ~13 per minute.

[Kihana]

You don't seem to understand for whatever reason... The overall amount of Life Support isn't supposed to be lower... it was lowered to make up for the differing spawn rate.  The spawn rates don't appear to be any different for playing solo so it just screws solo over.

 

You nailed it.

 

Edit:

 

Here's a situation I'm finding again and again. You run down life support capsules in a room because there's not enough modules dropping to cover you any more. I used to be able to leave the first rooms modules untouched. So you move to the next room where the newest modules have spawned.

 

You sit there waiting with nothing to kill as life support trends down. This is time you can't afford to lose. But your losing it anyway.

 

Thing is, wasn't that what they were supposedly fixing for four player squads? Why is it happening in solo? Simple. Lower enemy counts in solo together with max spawns, and all the spawns back in the last capsule room and beyond means they are slowly making their way to you. Sure, you could stay back there and kill them there but then they respawn back there as well. Back to square one. And your still stuck with the lower capsule drop rate. And that's the real problem.

 

This isn't an issue in a multi player squad as people can spread out and the spawn/kill count (and therefore module drop rate) is higher anyway.

 

Solo players got screwed over. Reading the patch notes, I get the impression that testing concentrated on multi player squads only. It was all about multi player squads They clearly did little testing in solo.

 

I'm still trying to find threads where multi player squads were complaining in the first place. Was this a Council feedback thing?

Edited February 12, 2015 by Kihana

[Carolly]

Good for you, that still doesn't fix the problem where I consistently*10+ attempts both normal and void* have the mentioned times despite having changed nothing about my playstyle. All the while I could previously hit 40+ without to much trouble.

 

So you tell me, where's more likely to be the issue? Keep in mind, I'm not the only one noticing this.

 

Edit: Just to verify, did 4 attempts today. Of which 3 T2 void. Only one of the runs reached 25 min. Also tried apollo again. Still stuck at 20.

Yeah, sorry I missed your reply; reread my post.  I was agreeing with you.  It's changed for the worse.

[hatetheory]

Why is this an issue to begin with it's why i'm getting so annoyed with this game lately. Just jack up life support drops so their every where they are only their to stop people from hiding so why is this a problem buff the drop rate and it's done but that would make to much sense apparently.

[Carolly]

Why is this an issue to begin with it's why i'm getting so annoyed with this game lately. Just jack up life support drops so their every where they are only their to stop people from hiding so why is this a problem buff the drop rate and it's done but that would make to much sense apparently.

I actually think the bigger problem is that Survival is one of the very few modes with sufficient rewards for people to want to play it.  Thus all of the constant adjustments.

Personally I have to feel that it's one of the bigger failings of the game right now.

[taiiat]

*sigh*

i'm not going to continue this. either note down useful information for our testing, or don't.

you don't have to like that Life Support as well as the Gamemode is being adjusted (because it was decided internally that it was too easy), but that's how it's going.

Players are intended to be challenged, and that's what is going to happen. from this point i am only interested in informational reports, not discussing decisions that have already been made.

so any information about how this or that place is performing, is always valued. more test samples from different Playstyles and Play levels can only be a positive thing.

You sit there waiting with nothing to kill as life support trends down.

This isn't an issue in a multi player squad as people can spread out and the spawn/kill count.

yes, very true. will double check that's accounted for with the scaling per number of players.

killing just ~13 per minute.

yikes! what Tileset was this? what was (about) the starting Level?

and anything else you could provide that could explain why so few Enemies were spawning.

they are only their to stop people from hiding

they aren't, actually. Life Support serves a few purposes, not only one.

[Uzpian]

it's good to see more threads about the change in Life Support pop up, as other people in another thread seem to think nothing has changed. I guess only the players who solo survival (or at least solo survival alerts/syndicate missions) notice the difference in LS drop rate.

And I thought RNG is just messing with my Nova Prime chassis grind.

 

Good to see I'm not the only one noticing it also :/

[Fleuretty]

 

here's a quick video of one of my runs yesterday. This was in Selkie, Sedna. Forgive the quality and lack of sound, i didn't bother spicing it up with audio and exporting it in HD. :P

 

Benchmarks:

 

first kill was at 6:37 so from that reference point...

 

6:37 - 7:37 = ~45 kills, 5 LS drops

7:37 - 8:37 = ~37 kills, 4 LS drops

8:37 - 9:37 = ~35 kills, 1 LS drop

9:37 - 10:01 = ~13 kills, 2 LS drops

 

total = 3min 24sec, ~130 or so kills and 12 LS drops.

 

This is roughly 38 kills and ~4 LS drops per minute. That's 24% life support lost every minute while doing basic camping. (not perfect though due to radial proc potentially killing stuff in the connecting hallway) I had a video recording of the first 5min as well but it ended with me having to run out of the camp spot to activate 3 capsules (coz reasons) since i dipped below 5%.

 

This isn't just in Selkie though, i actually had a slightly worse experience doing this in Nuovo using the same camp spot. The mid-high level of survivals (minimum lv20 but max level under 30) in Uranus, Phobos and neptune also had similar results.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Xarugas