Should Melee Outdps Firearms?

[Yinglong]

A simple question to what's perhaps a polarizing topic. Should melee in general outDPS firearms (primaries and secondaries)?

 

Does the added risk justify doing more damage over time in return?

 

I'm curious to know what the community thinks. I leave you with a poll for data gathering if you choose to participate. Your input and time is much appreciated.

 

http://strawpoll.me/3685344

 

[Trichouette]

Since you're going in close fight which allow you to get killed pretty easy, yeah they should in my opinion.
Plus, in lategame, melee should be a real way to deal damage that surpass other weapon, this way the risk would be worth it.

(because seriously using melee against level 50+ enemies... unless you're invisible or called valkyr, nobody does that)

[Bobtm]

I'm gonna throw a no at the poll, and here's why;  Melee should generally be about more than straightforward DPS.  Going melee should, as far as I'm concerned, provide other meritable benefits to the player who goes that route.  I'm talking stuff like boosted raw mobility options, the ability to block (we do have this but I'd like to see it expanded on somehow), a straight bonus to player damage resistance while in melee mode, and a greater focus on variable damage, stuns, and forced status procs.

 

With melee it would be instead about getting in, hitting a dude, then hitting a different dude, then blocking stuff or dodging around, then hitting more dudes.  Rather than just having melee outdo guns at their role, I'd prefer seeing melee become exemplary at its own role.  Carving out a niche in a realm that isn't purely grounded in DPS numbers.

 

I already hate the over-focus on DPS as it stands anyways but that's a rant for another day.

[BloodSage09]

yes

[nickelshark]

It's a good question. Melee has the benefit of extra mobility. Your Soma Prime isn't gonna get you to the other side of the room faster than the dual ichors will. While your Soma Prime will clear the room quicker than your dual ichors will. However, it is risky to get in the face of the enemy and should be some pay off for it as well. Also, ranged weapons can hit a lot more enemies than melee with punch-through or not and melee having higher damage output would make up for that. On the other hand melee isn't limited by ammo so there is no need to reload or worrying about not being able to take a swing and you can block no boltor prime can do that.

 

Hmm I'll say they should be about on par with each other.

Edited February 20, 2015 by nickelshark

[taiiat]

i'm leaning towards what Bob says, pure Damage Output is only a small fraction of what Weapons help us do.

there'a lot more than just Damge to focus on.

a poll for data gathering

good joke.

[DarkLordX2]

Actually, yes.

 

Mostly because you are limited to close-range combat, in almost all the games i have played, melee weapons are at least 3 times stronger than a gun, the reason? Because balance.

 

I remember a game where the best gun had 50 damage and the best sword had 200, because the sword was limited to one target and to close-range combat.

[PickleMonster21]

Plus, in lategame, melee should be a real way to deal damage that surpass other weapon, this way the risk would be worth it.

(because seriously using melee against level 50+ enemies... unless you're invisible or called valkyr, nobody does that)

Unless you have an Orthos Prime, of course. Then you just jump-slam into groups of enemies and then blend all their limbs together c:

[PickleMonster21]

A simple question to what's perhaps a polarizing topic. Should melee in general outDPS firearms (primaries and secondaries)?

 

Does the added risk justify doing more damage over time in return?

 

I'm curious to know what the community thinks. I leave you with a poll for data gathering if you choose to participate. Your input and time is much appreciated.

 

http://strawpoll.me/3685344

 

 

[Sev7n]

I think they need to remain about the same in terms of dps but each should contain a set  of different utilities. 

 

Currently guns can destroy enemies at range, stay in fights while behind cover, hit more enemies per attack

 

Currently melee can block / reflect damage, absorb health per attack, and perform aoe knockdowns at will

 

There might be other utilities each possess that i havnt mentioned

[Madek-]

Not sure about DPS, but the melee system should receive some love <3

[Hatzeputt]

This is not the middle ages even though certain bows in our game are top of the food chain you do not bring a knife to a gun fight unless you can utilize stealth or some other advantage. The last ones to try to use massed melee attacks vs fire arm wielders were the Japanese and the outcome of those banzai charges seldom were in their favor. Yes this is a game but this does not mean we must add even more logic defying none sense to the game. Melee as it is is fine. 

[Liljeman]

I think melee should be about the same however if you'd take a melee weapon and a primary that would be considered equal tier I'd say the melee should have higher dps if it has infinite stamina and the gun need to reload. Not counting in multihits on enemies now.

[Serialkillerwhale]

This is not the middle ages even though certain bows in our game are top of the food chain you do not bring a knife to a gun fight unless you can utilize stealth or some other advantage. The last ones to try to use massed melee attacks vs fire arm wielders were the Japanese and the outcome of those banzai charges seldom were in their favor. Yes this is a game but this does not mean we must add even more logic defying none sense to the game. Melee as it is is fine. 

Because real life soldiers could stomp hard enough to warp time, go into invincible berzerk rampages and shoot spears out of their swords.

 

Bows, much more than swords, should be outdated using that logic, they're slow, inaccurate, impossible to use in cover, take up both hands, and have no real advantage power-wise while if armor and shield design are superior to firearm design in the future, a weapon that can cause massive bodily damage like a warhammer will see a resurgence.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Serialkillerwhale

[SIDESTRE4M]

I'm gonna throw a no at the poll, and here's why;  Melee should generally be about more than straightforward DPS.  Going melee should, as far as I'm concerned, provide other meritable benefits to the player who goes that route.  I'm talking stuff like boosted raw mobility options, the ability to block (we do have this but I'd like to see it expanded on somehow), a straight bonus to player damage resistance while in melee mode, and a greater focus on variable damage, stuns, and forced status procs.

 

With melee it would be instead about getting in, hitting a dude, then hitting a different dude, then blocking stuff or dodging around, then hitting more dudes.  Rather than just having melee outdo guns at their role, I'd prefer seeing melee become exemplary at its own role.  Carving out a niche in a realm that isn't purely grounded in DPS numbers.

 

I already hate the over-focus on DPS as it stands anyways but that's a rant for another day.

 

Well good luck killing stuff fast enough at higher levels.

After scratching that heavy gunner for seconds or a minute, maybe you get tired of stunning and jumping around.

 

Melee should combine your options and be at least on par with guns to make it even worthwile.

 

I'm trying to do more melee and I find it hard to justify anything other than Dakra Prime with Crimson Dervish to kill lvl30 fast enough so it doesn't get TOO dangerous.

 

I even found out that some animations of Dragon Nikana kinda lock me, so I'm not able to throw a blind or a shock in to deescalate a bit. Melee right now is in a niche place where it's mostly used for coptering or finishing some enemies who strayed or survivors.

 

Melee needs a higher damage, faster change into stance, maybe a hipshot function for pistols and less stamina consuming.

 

However I still find it kinda fun.

[Hatzeputt]

Because real life soldiers could stomp hard enough to warp time, go into invincible berzerk rampages and shoot spears out of their swords.

 

Bows, much more than swords, should be outdated using that logic, they're slow, inaccurate, impossible to use in cover, take up both hands, and have no real advantage power-wise while if armor and shield design are superior to firearm design in the future, a weapon that can cause massive bodily damage like a warhammer will see a resurgence.

 

[Bobtm]

Well good luck killing stuff fast enough at higher levels.

After scratching that heavy gunner for seconds or a minute, maybe you get tired of stunning and jumping around.

 

Melee should combine your options and be at least on par with guns to make it even worthwile.

 

I'm trying to do more melee and I find it hard to justify anything other than Dakra Prime with Crimson Dervish to kill lvl30 fast enough so it doesn't get TOO dangerous.

 

I even found out that some animations of Dragon Nikana kinda lock me, so I'm not able to throw a blind or a shock in to deescalate a bit. Melee right now is in a niche place where it's mostly used for coptering or finishing some enemies who strayed or survivors.

 

Melee needs a higher damage, faster change into stance, maybe a hipshot function for pistols and less stamina consuming.

 

However I still find it kinda fun.

 

I never said melee was perfect as it is :p  I do have to say though, try dropping Crimson Dervish in favor of Iron Phoenix a bit and see how that handles for you.  Even though most believe the former to be "best" it's not... it's not even close to being that.

 

Overall I really want to see melee's usability improved, the animation lock and absolute lack of markable defensive inbuilt traits are what butcher it at the moment.  If we just ramp up its damage the stance combos would be little more than flashy irrelevance due to how often you'd be one-shotting things throughout.  Beyond that, with a bit of touching up of the combo system (it's too harsh) melee could out DPS guns after you get some strings of hits in.

 

The combo timer is way too short though, we need something like a 7-9 second time allotted between strikes at the very least before the combo resets to really hone in on that system.  Amping up the damage at the basic level would entirely destroy the point of combos however, which is why it's better to leave the basic damage levels close to where they are at the moment while tweaking other variables to improve melee combat like the passive type traits in combination to taking a look at the combo multiplier stages.  This would incentivize an appropriate "feel" to melee combat in that you're putting together solid combination strings at first to build power, then at a high combo count you turn into a whirlwind of death capable of cleaving enemies asunder in single strikes.

 

When that happens you've got a system that actually feels like a robust melee combat thing, as opposed to bopping from target to target to one shot foes.

 

Animation lock also has to die in a fire, it literally effects every melee weapon at the moment, with some being hit to a lesser extent than others.  There's nothing more to be said about that, it's just something that needs to cease existing in its entirety.  Hipshooting with melee out is something I've been for over time, but I also feel flip-flopy about it.  In a way it's a cool idea, but I'd honestly prefer having stronger gap closers tied into melee as opposed to that.  Of course that's not to say I'm against the hipshot stuff, It's just sort of a counterpoint to melee combat in this sense.  "I'm gonna go melee mode, now watch as I shoot that dude, because melee."

 

Seriously, the animation lock is atrocious and a plague on melee, you can literally be aiming and taking a shot with your Vectis while simultaneously firing Shock.  Yet it, or any other one-handed animation cannot under any circumstance be used during melee combat.  You can fire a gun and instantly dodge roll away, can't do that in melee, and the list goes on from there.

 

So the short version of what I'm saying, improve the combo system and melee's passive traits and give it gap closers.  Then remove animation lock and lock it inside a dumpster, then set that dumpster on fire, then launch it into the sun.

[SIDESTRE4M]

That sounds sounds indeed very reasonable.

 

Regarding hipshot, I can see some problems too. Having the pistol holstered right when I'm holding my melee weapon in my right hand proves to be a challenge.

 

I think, faster switching would make that idea obsolete.

[Davoodoo]

This problem is a bit more complicated.

 

With current gameplay i believe that melee should be way more powerful than guns. Enemies run from you, outnumber you, are really accurate and there is no penatly for going ranged in melee range, also melee offers nothing special, since enviroments are pretty open and enemies dont like to stack, our melee will work only against those single durable units.

 

In games like dark souls or nosgoth however, theres penatly for going ranged into melee combat, there is less space to spread out and maneuver, in games like these im actually fine with ranged weapons having slight advantage in dmg output.

 

 

Not that melee combat could use some tweaks regardless of its dps.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Davoodoo

[carnaga]

I can see the developers timeline for the future:

 

U20 will be named as "Darvo's Blade"

 

It will be story driven continuity for "A Favor For Dravo" and "Ties That Bind" where Corpus merchant Darvo will be re-introduced. Story roundups for a legendary Tenno blade used during old war and which went missing in uncertain circumstances. The mission drives the player through different challenges with the help from Darvo and  Ordis. The story reveals a glimpse of the true identity of our beloved Lotus and tells you more about the old war.

 

New planet system introduced

New fraction introduced

New game mode introduced

Damage 3.0 introduced

New mods introduced

New melee weapons introduced

New user interface introduced

 

Modifications: nerf hammer to all ranged weapons - it's blade time!

 

EDIT: U21 will be named as "Rise of The Old War"

 

As the new fraction was introduced during U20 the story focuses on this ancient race and their history. The story will reveal the leader behind the fraction: The Queen - a colossal monster. With story driven quest the players objective is to find The Queens location and fight her with fellow Tennos. To win The Queen the player has to have the Legendary Blade as the key.

 

Spoiler warning:

The Queen = Lotus

In game you can see only 1% of the Lotus. Her upper body is attached to a colossal body that has been hidden from the players.

 

New enemies introduced

New game mode introduced

16 player game mode introduced

Maroo (the thief from spy 2.0 update) will be re-introduced to guide and assist Tenno.

Edited February 20, 2015 by carnaga

[Lost_Cartographer]

I think melee weapons should ignore armor and shields.

 

This is about the only buff I can see that would make them worth using over fire arms against high level enemies.  Despite moving faster with the roflcopter technique, or a slam knockdown, or being able to block ranged attacks, these are all just tools to get in close and hurt something.  But if it takes longer to kill something with melee than to simply use a gun, the Tenno is just opting to make things harder on themselves to get the same result, only now they've sacrificed the safety of a good cover position to do it.  Melee simply loses, all things considered.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Littleman88

[(PSN)handmedownheart]

No. I know I might get backlash for this, but guns are guns........I hate doing a hard mission or even an easy mission with PUGs just running around only using melee.

 

 

This usually turns a 10 minute run into a 30 minute run.

 

 

To sum it up in a logical mentality from a real life persepective:

 

9mm vs claymore...

 

The end.

 

 

p.s. Yes, I know it's a game and there should be "more incentive" to use melee.....That's just my take. No insults or anger intended.

Edited February 20, 2015 by (PS4)handmedownheart

[Koujjo]

I don't get all the melee hate. Granted I'm a solo player most of the time and I've yet to do any really hard content but isn't melee already as good as or better than guns? Take excalibur and surging dash for example. Slash dash into a horde of enemies and you're instantly doing 1.5X - 2X damage on multiple enemies at once if your weapon has any range. Guns can't do that. They don't get more damage the more you shoot.

 

Add on top of that the bonus you get from radial blind. That's an additional 400% damage unless I'm not understanding the mechanics right. Another bonus guns don't get.

 

The only criticism I have about melee is lack of mobility due to high stamina usage. I know some will say "lol lern 2 copter noob!" but I'm not talking about flinging yourself all the way across a room. I'm talking about going ten feet to attack the next closest  enemy at a crawl because one combo with your dual zorens just nuked your stamina bar. Funny the one playstyle that has the most need of stamina suffers the most because of current mechanics.

[Thaumatos]

No. I know I might get backlash for this, but guns are guns........I hate doing a hard mission or even an easy mission with PUGs just running around only using melee.

 

 

This usually turns a 10 minute run into a 30 minute run.

 

 

To sum it up in a logical mentality from a real life persepective:

 

9mm vs claymore...

 

The end.

 

 

p.s. Yes, I know it's a game and there should be "more incentive" to use melee.....That's just my take. No insults or anger intended.

 

Logical.... right.

 

In a game where swords spawn out of thin air, guns shoot at speeds faster than light (instantaneous hit-scan), and bows do more to puncture armor than firearms.

 

Man what are you smoking and why won't you share?

 

Anyway.  Devstream 47.  22:25 to 22:44

 

Melee > Ranged ... at least in PvP

[Davoodoo]

To sum it up in a logical mentality from a real life persepective:

 

9mm vs claymore...

 

The end.

funny that you use that comparison.

You know that 9mm doesnt have enough power to penetrate human chest, it will get stuck in body.

 

Claymore however penetrates human body easily, with strong enough swing can actually leave a deep cut in body which guarantees death unlike shot from 9mm, also there are ppl who survived bullet to the head, having sword stuck in head however guarantees death again.

 

Not only that, most modern body armors are designed to stop bullets, but are all worthless against more primitive tools like blades or arrows.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Davoodoo