"bored" Of Weapons' Performances And Identities. (Not A Rant Thread)

[Burnthesteak87]

Am I the only one bored of the actual system for Primary and Secundary weapons?

In the most iconic shooter games of the past, every weapon had its own place, its role, its peculiarity, its funny way of working.

On Warframe most weapons are following the typical stereotypes (automatic rifle, semiauto, sniper/bow, shotgun, explosive launcher, automatic pistol, semiauto pistol, etc.), changing just in stats (crit based, flat damage based, fire ratio based, status based... anyway the playstyle is always the same), eventually in damage type and, in the end, model mesh.

There are a ridicle amount of automatic rifles. 2 top tier Auto Rifles (Boltor Prime, Soma Prime), a ton of trash clones changing just by mesh and vaguely by stats (Mk1-Braton, Braton, Grakata, Braton Vandal, Dera, Boltor, Soma, Braton Prime, Tetra, Karak, Gorgon, Supra, ...).
Ineffective guns that stays there just to be Mastery Rank fodder.
This is valid for the Burst Rifles, Sniper Rifles, Bows, Pistols, Auto Pistols, etc. too.

       Every of these guns does the same thing: Left Mouse shoot/volley, Right Mouse aim.
        (We have a secondary Fire key, but often is bound to the aim).

I'M NOT SAYING THAT THERE ARE NO NICE NOR CREATIVE WEAPONS (for people who can't read), but all of these weapons do just the same thing, there isn't another way of using them, the Secondary fire is always bound to the aim action... WTF do I have to aim with a rocket launcher?

Because of this once you get the high tier weapon, all other lower weapons become useless.

       Since the function is always the same, when you get the stronger gun, all the remaining which fall shorter after it                     become useless.

I understand all of this is for the mastery rank fodder system, but aren't all these weapons wasted this way?

Is it possible to re-think the logic behind firearms to have a real Secondary Fire or an intrinsic mechanic to make every weapon distinctive and special? 
Maybe a dual weapon? Explosive Grenades and Smoke Grenades on an assault rifle? Stealth area device for sniper rifles? An attractive ray for short ranged weapons? An overheat mode for energy rifles? An heavy gun depleting a protective shield while stationary?
Maybe a peculiar passive? A gun performing best with high ammos and slow reload speed? A gun dealing more damage while overheating?

And please don't forget there are similar weapons. But don't tell me that the Mutalist and Quanta series are what I'm looking for: their look is terrible, unappealing, the primary fire sucks, the secondary fire is most of the time useless or clashes with the aim when you need to.

Even the Panthera shows an interest into approaching this direction, but does it in a so sober manner and ultimately fails tremendously. The damage is terrible, the status application.. It's better at this point having a 100% Status Weapon with Punch Through like Nukor doing the work, or better hitting enemies with a Status Melee Weapon...

The Khom shotgun does the same, working in a peculiar manner, but what's its difference in the end from a Supra or a Soma?

Buzlok is another example. Crippled by its own mechanics and stats. The visual effect is so sober for a so special mechanic. I would give an arm to have its secondary fire on a whatever else automatic rifle.



What do you think about it?


PS: Let's put it this way: If all your weapons would have just the same Model Mesh of a Braton, what weapon would you still play?

Those which kill faster, of course.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

You know, I actually disagree. I criticize DE a lot, but I think creating unique weapons is something they do a great job of.

Balancing those weapons? Maybe not so much.

[homiedudemanguy]

In the most iconic shooter games of the past, every weapon had its own place, its role, its peculiarity, its funny way of working.

On Warframe most weapons are following the typical stereotypes (automatic rifle, semiauto, sniper/bow, shotgun, explosive launcher, automatic pistol, semiauto pistol, etc.), changing just in stats (crit based, flat damage based, fire ratio based, status based

definitely agree on this, there are certain weapons that have unique style/mechanics but then they get thrown away and forgotten purely because of its stats or the requirements of what makes a viable weapons useful due to these restrictions

[SilverZs]

Well.... we can't have the ultimate PC experience because of consoles tbh...

 

Consoles are limited to a maximum number of buttons to accomplish all actions, I personally think its stupid that we cannot have a different key on PC for alternate firing while maintaining a key for zooming.

 

There are times I do regret the 100s upon 100s of dollars I founded into this game to have it limited by consoles.

[Burnthesteak87]

You know, I actually disagree. I criticize DE a lot, but I think creating unique weapons is something they do a great job of.

Balancing those weapons? Maybe not so much.

You clearly missed my point. And didn't argued your point, can you bring some examples and justify them?

[StevesEvilTwin]

The most iconic shooters of the past also usually had no more than 20 weapons. You try designing (eventually) thousands of weapons that all function differently without turning to stat tweaks. Look at a game like TF2 for example. The default weapons for each class are all unique and non-comparable with each other like the old FPS', but everything else is just stat variations and situational bonuses based off the corresponding default weapon. The best that Warframe could possibly achieve is TF2's system, and even that is asking an awfull lot creatively from the devs. You'd probably need a team of people dedicated to designing weapons to do this.

Edited February 22, 2015 by StevesEvilTwin

[Green-Bean]

Amprex, Miter, Phage, Quanta, Mutalist Quanta, Buzlok, Paracyst, Panthera. These are the "unique" weapons of ours, in that they have significant attribute to them that make them stand out. These are also just the primaries. 

 

I'll admit, we do have a lot of weapons that are similar to each other, but making unique weapons is not something that DE is bad at, in my opinion. Unfortunately, the Soma and Boltor Prime are far more popular and powerful than most of these weapons. That is why we see them so often. 

[Burnthesteak87]

Amprex, Miter, Phage, Quanta, Mutalist Quanta, Buzlok, Paracyst, Panthera. These are the "unique" weapons of ours, in that they have significant attribute to them that make them stand out. These are also just the primaries. 

 

I'll admit, we do have a lot of weapons that are similar to each other, but making unique weapons is not something that DE is bad at, in my opinion. Unfortunately, the Soma and Boltor Prime are far more popular and powerful than most of these weapons. That is why we see them so often. 

Amprex and Phage are the only 2 from your list closest to be useful weapons. They're essentially an alternative Flamethrower.

What are the others useful for? They fall short because their issues and bad stats makes them undersiderable. They don't stand out, they stand down.

I'd say Opticor, Nukor, Glaxion. Actually strong and useful. Way more high on the podium.

BUT. Nukor and Glaxion are just like whatever beam gun. The difference are just aesthetics and damage type.

Take in consideration Spectra and Flux Rifle. Lower damage, no other utility to be preferred over these 2.

Do you see my point?

Edited February 22, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[TheErebus.]

Amprex and Phage are the only 2 from your list closest to be useful weapons. What are the others useful for? They fall short because their issues and bad stats makes them undersiderable.

Buzlok is quite powerful. Helped me a lot in T4 missions. Just needs proper modding ( I swear it fires like sonic the hedgehog )

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

You clearly missed my point. And didn't argued your point, can you bring some examples and justify them?

Torid, Amprex, Quanta, Bows (as a class, not necessarily individual varients), Panthera, Miter, Glaxion, Nukor, Phage, Kohm, Panthera, Opticor, Penta, Ogris, Ballista, Castanas, Angstrum, Synapse, Ignis, Stug, Cestras...

There's some examples. Granted, they all aren't balanced properly, but I specifically said they weren't.

[Burnthesteak87]

Buzlok is quite powerful. Helped me a lot in T4 missions. Just needs proper modding ( I swear it fires like sonic the hedgehog )

Because of its flaws (Fire Rate, Reload time, Inaccurate) its primary fire is stomped by whatever automatic rifle, because of its flaws (travel time, ammo hungry) its secondary fire makes it extremely underwhelming.

 

 

Torid, Amprex, Quanta, Bows (as a class, not necessarily individual varients), Panthera, Miter, Glaxion, Nukor, Phage, Kohm, Panthera, Opticor, Penta, Ogris, Ballista, Castanas, Angstrum, Synapse, Ignis, Stug, Cestras...

There's some examples. Granted, they all aren't balanced properly, but I specifically said they weren't.

Yup, about the balancing I told that too. 

So Unique weapons, let's see.

Bows aren't particular. 

Khom and Synapse are actually automatic rifles with nothing special over their trigger.

Amprex and Phage as yet stated are alternative flamethrowers.

Cestras and Duals, Supras and Gorgons are essentially automatic rifles bad performing.

Penta, Ogris aren't special at all. Typical launchers. Every FPS has one or the other. The Penta just has a particular trigger type doesn't change the outcome.

How many of these weapons are really useful at the moment?

Torid (another launcher), Nukor (beam weapon nothing special over damage type and status application), Glaxion (to be verified) (beam weapon), Opticor (alternative bow/sniper rifle), Penta(launcher), Ogris (launcher), Angstrum (launcher).

Because of the AOE damage, the status application and because of the utility.

The point is there is really no difference in picking a Torid or an Ogris/Penta, for the way they can be played. Just aesthetics and trigger type.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Sitchrea]

I cannot say you are right.

 

Name another game where there is a gun which you can shoot a lazer with one button and an explosive with another.

 

Or have two guns that, while they are beam weapons (Which by itself disproves your point), have to be used in seperate ways and modded in seperate ways to maximize their potential. 

 

Or have a sniper rifle that can literally aimbot, so long as you hit the target with a slow-moving alternate-fire projectile first.

 

Or have a gun that shoot chainsaws. (Or a gun that actually is a chainsaw)

 

Or have two guns that shoot lightning.

 

Or have a rocket launcher that requires good timing to even shoot properly.

 

Or have Bows and Arrows.

 

Or have dart-shooting corrosive projectile-based arm cancers.

 

Or have wrist-lasers that can slice an enemy into pieces.

 

Or have a FREAKING RAILGUN.

 

-EDIT-

 

I'm not done.

 

Or have a grenade launcher that shoots poison clouds.

 

Or have a shotgun whose projectiles bounce off walls.

 

Or have a shotgun that is better after shooting for a while and whose projectiles bounce off walls.

 

Or have fully-automatic crossbows.

 

Or have handheld burst-fire crossbows.

 

Or have throwable electric mines.

 

Or have Kunai.

 

Or have Hikou.

 

Or have projectile-based laser blasters and machine guns.

 

Or have handheld explosive goo pistols.

 

By the way I haven't even started on the aesthetic and artistic differences on all of these; which, by the way, are each distinguishably different visually, audibly, and functionally.

 

Okay I'm done...

 

-EDIT-

 

Oh, right; I forgot Archwing!

 

Or have a space-minigun.

 

Or have dual space laser rifles.

 

Or have massive chargeable space-shotguns.

 

Or have space-crossbows.

 

Okay... Now I'm done!

Edited February 22, 2015 by Sitchrea

[HandsomeSorcerer]

A truly balanced game will feature idenitcal weapons in a rock paper scissor format, not necessarily fun.

Warframe weapons arent balanced according tp the time it takes to get them, or scale very well vs other weapons, especially with formas and catalysts. Weak weapons should feature more polarities or better stats.

I really would not mind seeing a remodeled boltor prime with corpus design and plasma, a tetra prime.

Personally, the thing that kills trying out new weapons for me is formaing. Maybe there should be a super forma that can forma 4 slots with one rank reset.

[Burnthesteak87]

 

snip

 

I invite you people to actually read my first thread and trying to understand the point, not to come here and shoot just because you feel the urge to neglect someone you don't feel sympathy for.

I'm not criticizing DE, I'm feeling there's something lacking and asking to discuss about it. With intelligence please.

 

 

A truly balanced game will feature idenitcal weapons in a rock paper scissor format, not necessarily fun.
Warframe weapons arent balanced according tp the time it takes to get them, or scale very well vs other weapons, especially with formas and catalysts. Weak weapons should feature more polarities or better stats.

I really would not mind seeing a remodeled boltor prime with corpus design and plasma, a tetra prime.

Personally, the thing that kills trying out new weapons for me is formaing. Maybe there should be a super forma that can forma 4 slots with one rank reset.

Yup, that's it. Another Tetra you're asking for? We don't have enough automatic rifle clones? ;P

Edited February 22, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Sitchrea]

 

 

 

I invite you people to actually read my first thread and trying to understand the point, not to come here and shoot just because you feel the urge to neglect someone you don't feel sympathy for.

I'm not criticizing DE, I'm feeling there's something lacking and asking to discuss about it. With intelligence please.

 

I never insulted you, why insult me?

 

I read your post and I know that you feel that most weapons are unappealing or not very amusing to use because everything functions the same way.

 

I.E. "And please don't forget there are similar weapons. But don't tell me that the Mutalist and Quanta series are what I'm looking for: their look is terrible, unappealing, the primary fire sucks, the secondary fire is most of the time useless or clashes with the aim when you need to." -From paragraph 12 of the OP.

 

However the statement behind your reasoning, "Primary and Secondary weapons need more variety in functionality," is not only subjective - and thus is an opinion - but albeit disproven by the existing variety of weapons in the game already, as I showed in my reply. 

 

Now I ask, objectively, what does Warframe lack, exactly?

Edited February 22, 2015 by Sitchrea

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Conundrum:

The weapons that are "creative" you say fail: Quanta, Paracyst, Mutalist Quanta, Ballistica, Kohm, Drakgoon, Stug, etc...

Because they do not have top tier stats

But you do not want weapons with similar functions and different stats

Maybe this is not the game you are looking for.

They do variants of the same weapons...MK-1, Vandal, Wraith, Syndicate variants, Prime, Prisma , Mara, etc....

So even if the Torid was decent and unique if a Prisma or other Torid variant appeared....it would be there are not enough unique weapons because it is just another skinned _______(weapon type)

The way you just say the Kohm is no different from the Supra or Soma has me perplexed.

- do those weapons have bouncing projectiles, as well?

- can there shots be adjusted to be more precise (Tainted Shell with high Fire Rate is very concentrated) OR wide area blanket fire (Max fire rate with Vicious spread and no Tainted Shell)

Different automatics that you listed have recoil which gives the weapons different firing characteristics.

-Guns don't have to have "proprietary" firing mechanics to be creative....

I feel they can be creative with how the weapon handles(Horizontal/Vertical recoil; beam retracting (Spectra) rather than hit scan beam like Flux/Quanta)

But these unique weapons (Ballistica, Paracyst) are deemed "Mastery Fodder" because they are not as practical and easy performing as normal weapons (even if the stats are similar)

I do not count the Detron and Mara Detron the same....Mara has this random double trigger which makes it "feel" like a different weapon to me. (Same goes for things like difference in Recoil between Latron Prime and Latron Wraith)

[Burnthesteak87]

Conundrum:

The weapons that are "creative" you say fail: Quanta, Paracyst, Mutalist Quanta, Ballistica, Kohm, Drakgoon, Stug, etc...

Because they do not have top tier stats

But you do not want weapons with similar functions and different stats

You are interpretating your way.

 

 

Maybe this is not the game you are looking for.

They do variants of the same weapons...MK-1, Vandal, Wraith, Syndicate variants, Prime, Prisma , Mara, etc....

So even if the Torid was decent and unique if a Prisma or other Torid variant appeared....it would be there are not enough unique weapons because it is just another skinned _______(weapon type)

I'm playing by 2 years now. I'm not crying nor bashing DE, I'm wondering if there is something missing.

This again is an interpretation of yours, this isn't what I'm telling. I neither talked about Variants.

 

 

The way you just say the Kohm is no different from the Supra or Soma has me perplexed.

- do those weapons have bouncing projectiles, as well?

- can there shots be adjusted to be more precise (Tainted Shell with high Fire Rate is very concentrated) OR wide area blanket fire (Max fire rate with Vicious spread and no Tainted Shell)

It doesn't change the fact that's in the end an automatic gun. You can blanket fire with each of these guns.

 

 

Different automatics that you listed have recoil which gives the weapons different firing characteristics. 

-Guns don't have to have "proprietary" firing mechanics to be creative....

I feel they can be creative with how the weapon handles(Horizontal/Vertical recoil; beam retracting (Spectra) rather than hit scan beam like Flux/Quanta)

Recoil are nothing else than just FLAWS that should be in to BALANCE the weapon, not to gimp it and make it undesiderable.

Example#1, AKLex, have a ridicle recoil for the damage they can pull out. For their own flaw, it's better taking a Marelock. If you want to fix that flaw with Steady Hands you still lose damages, making the weapon even lower in the tier.

Example#2, Tigris trigger, even if being interesting and makes the weapon unique, isn't balanced by its slow reload speed, it's totally gimped. Same goes for it being a Status weapon. It has a ridicle shooting uptime, what's the logic into making it a Status weapon? Isn't better a Nukor then?

This makes Tigris an inferior weapon to Hek.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Burnthesteak87]

I never insulted you, why insult me?

 

I read your post and I know that you feel that most weapons are unappealing or not very amusing to use because everything functions the same way.

 

I.E. "And please don't forget there are similar weapons. But don't tell me that the Mutalist and Quanta series are what I'm looking for: their look is terrible, unappealing, the primary fire sucks, the secondary fire is most of the time useless or clashes with the aim when you need to." -From paragraph 12 of the OP.

 

However the statement behind your reasoning, "Primary and Secondary weapons need more variety in functionality," is not only subjective - and thus is an opinion - but albeit disproven by the existing variety of weapons in the game already, as I showed in my reply. 

 

Now I ask, objectively, what does Warframe lack, exactly?

You're not the only one being targeted by my sentence.

Because you joined in and answered listing in a .. well.. not intelligent manner.

More than half of the weapons you listed are unused and lay down in every player's arsenal.

It's plenty of shooters with the listed weapons or as much fantasy.

Disproven by what? I showed my point clearly in the first thread.

Most of Warframe weapons lacks an Identity; if it wouldn't be for their own mesh you would be shooting with the same weapon 80% of the time. There are top weapons and neglected weapons. It's clearly written in my thread.

I should ask, would you like to join in a proper manner or do you have fun passing by, reading uncarefully, trolling and bashing other's argument  just because what you understood from the little you read doesn't suit you?

If you feel involved in an ego clash, abandon the discussion please, I've no interest.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Sitchrea]

Once again, i never insulted u, yet u insult me.

As far as the OP proving your points, that is false. U presented ample,amount of opinion, but nothing in the OP actually prpves your statement. Saying that a gun is useless is a useless statement if u do not give a reason why.

And saying a gun has no identity is not only subjective, but plainly untrue in Warframes case. It is untrue because, well, what gives a gun its identity? Its mesh, its frame, it visuals, its audio, amd its functionality- all of which are things u say are synonymous.

And of course you are shooting a gun 80% of the time; what else do u think a gun is supposed to be?

Please list what u want DE to do to fix what u say Warframe lacks.

You're not the only one being targeted by my sentence.

Because you joined in and answered listing in a .. well.. not intelligent manner.More than half of the weapons you listed are unused and lay down in every player's arsenal.

It's plenty of shooters with the listed weapons or as much fantasy.

Disproven by what? I showed my point clearly in the first thread.

Most of Warframe weapons lacks an Identity; if it wouldn't be for their own mesh you would be shooting with the same weapon 80% of the time. There are top weapons and neglected weapons. It's clearly written in my thread.I should ask, would you like to join in a proper manner or do you have fun passing by, reading uncarefully, trolling and bashing other's argument just because what you understood from the little you read doesn't suit you?

If you feel involved in an ego clash, abandon the discussion please, I've no interest.

Once again, i never insulted u, yet u insult me.

As far as the OP proving your points, that is false. U presented ample,ampunt of opinion, but nothing in the OP actually prpves your statement. Saying that a gun is useless is a useless statement if u do not give a reason why.

And saying a gun has no identity is not only subjective, but plainly untrue in Warframes case. It is untrue because, well, what gives a gun its identity? Its mesh, its frame, it visuals, its audio, amd its functionality- all of which are things u say are synonymous.

And of course you are shooting a gun 80% of the time; what else do u think a gun is supposed to be?

Please list what u want DE to do to fix what u say Warframe lacks.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Sitchrea

[Burnthesteak87]

Ok, he wants an ego battle...

Edited February 22, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Sitchrea]

Ok, he wants an ego battle...

I have said nothing to suggest that. I am still waiting for a reply.

I have shown how your proportion "most guns in Warframe function the same" is untrue. Please, if u really do want to discuss this, provide a defense and do not insult me.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Since I am seeing something different from what you typed:

From Original Post at the top

...

There are a ridicle amount of automatic rifles. 2 top tier Auto Rifles (Boltor Prime, Soma Prime), a ton of trash clones changing just by mesh and vaguely by stats (Mk1-Braton, Braton, Grakata, Braton Vandal, Dera, Boltor, Soma, Braton Prime, Tetra, Karak, Gorgon, Supra, ...).

Ineffective guns that stays there just to be Mastery Rank fodder.

...

  

...

I'm playing by 2 years now. I'm not crying nor bashing DE, I'm wondering if there is something missing.

This again is an interpretation of yours, this isn't what I'm telling. I neither talked about Variants.

 

 

It doesn't change the fact that's in the end an automatic gun. You can blanket fire with each of these guns.

 

 ...

You have Mk-1 Braton & then Braton listed...I interpreted that as Variants.

Then you quoted me saying you were not talking about variants and that I have a different interpretation.

The Kohm can be changed to not Blanket fire....Supra and Soma cannot do that. (Mainly because they use Rifle Mods and the Kohm as a Shotgun has access to a mod to reduce Spread)

As for your Recoil comment:

DE has 3 Blanket weapon classes Primary, Secondary, and Melee.

Primary and Secondary tend to shoot projectiles .... I know that is not very creative, but bear with me. Melee tends to include items that are themselves the item hitting the enemy. (Redeemer being the Gun/Blade to break the rule)

Real-Life Guns fall into the same limited categories you listed, but the thing you stated as "Flaws" is what gives preference. They are characteristics...

A .45 or 9 millimeter is worse than a .22, because of recoil? (Is 1 Semi-Auto pistol better than the others because of low recoil or higher damage & fire rate?)

M16, Ak-74, etc... Who says one is vastly superior over the other? (Still just automatics, according to 1st post)(I don't see people say an M16 is just another Automatic like an AA12 or M61, with no 1 having a clear advantage in all things over the others....)

You are correct, I am interpreting what you stated differently than you.

So I am not going be able to agree with there being "too little" weapon variation in Warframe Primary and Secondary choices.

[Burnthesteak87]

Snip

I din't Include intentionally upgrades of the weapon, as talking of Mk1/Classic/Prime, because that follows the "progression" path of the game. Same for Mara/Prisma/Syndacate weapons.

I repeat AGAIN, I'm talking about a ton of weapons with the same function (example, automatic rifles) with just sligh changes in stats.

Let's take Grakata and Boltor Prime, everyone knows that Grakata is an automatic rifle which must be built around crit and status(?), while the BoltorP is built around elemental/flat damage.

What will you take in T4 missions? Grakata? Nope, because BoltorP is much better at killing things, and there are better Status weapons.

The fact that Grakata has hitscan projectiles while BoltorP darts have travel time doesn't represent a disavantage (while in the previous comparison AkLex/Marelock the recoil does!) because of the fact if you hit things with Boltor, you'll kill, with Grakata, you won't.

Consider also Soma Prime.

About the blanket fire, spraing in a cone direction can be done with whatever automatic weapon. In particular with projectiles that have travel time.

This anyway isn't the main focus of my argument. These intentional disavantages or way of building a weapon aren't enough to justify the existence of so many similar weapons.

I see your point, probably we are misunderstanding each other.

Over the fact that these weapons would need to have the same stats (total damage, not difference between slash, impact, puncture) for the endgame (and if you would create multiple weapons for variety,THIS would consolidate the point), most  weapons could bear different secondary fire with different effects or passives to emphasize the difference.

Another example: You are getting into a T4 mission and you should decide your equipment, which weapons do you think to?

Braton? Grakata? Karak? Dera? Tetra? Burston? Hind? Latron? Tiberon? Or the good ol Soma Prime-all-in-one? Where's the variety in weapons?

Edited February 23, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Spoof310]

I wish you could un/equip primary or secondary fire from your weapons. Would make Panthera or Paracyst so much more fun to play

[Burnthesteak87]

What about a sniper weapon or mod which secondary fire/aim would show out enemies ala Codex Scanner?
Getting out the codex scanner every time slows the flow.