Hek's Falloff Re-Tested - Description Change Still Necessary

[Brane_Ded]

I took the Hek out for another spin post 7.10.1 now that it had its falloff range increased to get more numerical data.  I used the same mission (M Prime), exact same mods at the same tiers and the same hallway.  If you want to read the previous test when DE first gave shotguns falloff, you can read it here. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/35669-heks-falloff-tested-description-change-necessary/

 

I first confirmed that the base pellet damage was still 51 against Lancers and Troopers, and it was.  I then used the same 5m range increments (5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, and 40 meters) to determine its new falloff range and find out where it is still efficient to use.

 

5m = 51 damage

10m = 51 damage

15m = 51 damage

19m = 51 damage

20m = 48 damage

25m = 28 damage

28m = 12 damage

29m = 7 damage

30m = 7 damage

35m = 7 damage

45m = 7 damage

 

I also pinpointed at what ranges the Hek no longer did 51 damage and what range it changed to 7 damage.  So the hek will do full damage from 0m-19m and will falloff until 29m where the damage is a constant 13.7% of full damage.  The Hek has a very steep falloff that occurs entirely within 10m (from 19m to 29m).  The Hek loses nearly 50% of its damage by 25m, which effectively means that beyond 25m the Hek is no longer efficient and will lose ~87% of it's damage by 29m.

 

Still using DE's quoted ranges, 3m is the maximum range of a melee weapon (Scindo and Fragor) and 50m and beyond is considered long range.  This leaves the area between 3m and 50m to be designated as short and medium range.  DE has not specifically said what they consider short and medium to officially be but if we take the distance from 3m to 50m and divide it in half so that the range of short and medium range have an equal number of meters between them, short range = 3m-23.5m and medium range would be 23.5-50m.

 

While I am personally glad that the Hek is useful beyond melee range now I still feel that it needs to reach farther if DE is going to keep the same description that it currently has,
"The HEK is a powerful shotgun that fires its shots with a tight spread, making it efficient at medium range as long as its strong recoil is properly managed."

The keyword being "at", which is inclusive of the term "medium".  Unless DE decides that medium range is not half of the upper range from melee to long range, the word "at" in the Hek's description needs to be changed to "up to" because the weapon is still not efficient within at least half of the medium range spectrum.  It loses its efficiency after 25m or in otherwords it loses its efficiency within the first 6% of medium range still making it a short range shotgun.

 

For those who want to know the hallway ranges and see how far 50m really is, here is the hallway I used.  It's the same one from the previous test and can be seen on page 2 of the aforementioned link. (The hallway is exactly 50m from threshold to threshold however I could only mark 49m because the other door was not open and doors are 1m thick in Warframe.)  Remember 50 meters is where DE has noted that long range begins.

 

[MetalGerbil]

thats a mess of wordplay.

 

while it would be nice if the description was updated i dont think anybody is going to start demanding detailed analysis and thesis papers.

 

it was nerfed, then it got buffed. live with it? its close enough that i suspect people who have never used a hek before will ever know there is anything "wrong" with it.

Edited May 7, 2013 by MetalGerbil

[CloudPies]

thats a mess of wordplay.

 

while it would be nice if the description was updated i dont think anybody is going to start demanding detailed analysis and thesis papers.

 

it was nerfed, then it got buffed. live with it? its close enough that i suspect people who have never used a hek before will ever know there is anything "wrong" with it.

 

I think it was more of a suggestion to DE to change the description before new players choose it and get very very confused as to why they can't do much damage over 20 meters...

 

Thank you very much OP for the numbers though! Good to know I don't have to basically hump an enemy to make the full use of my damage potential lol.

Edited May 7, 2013 by CloudPies

[shukudai]

FWIW I got a lot out of this detailed analysis and very much appreciate the thought and effort put into designing the test, breaking down the results and presenting the findings in such detail.

 

Keep up the great work :)

[1ZRison]

It is supposed to be the shotgun with the longest range though. Looking at the picture 14m is good range for a shotgun (for game balance not realistically) already. It loses dmg after 19m. Maybe it should get a slight buff to like 22-23m before dmg falloff. You wont hit all pellets at that range i think anyway.

 

To say it more related to the screenshot, a grineer standing against that box there should still recieve full damage  (some of the pellets should not be able to hit that far anymore in my opinion) but anything beyond that should have falloff, Of course such a small buff is a bit picky so its not important or even really neccessary i think.

 

And after all it is all just my opinion.

Edited May 7, 2013 by 1ZRison

[BusterSlammin]

Went back to using a latron or braton. It's just much more effective, no point in using a HEK anymore.

[Judopunch]

 

"The HEK is a powerful shotgun that fires its shots with a tight spread, making it efficient at medium range as long as its strong recoil is properly managed."

The keyword being "at", which is inclusive of the term "medium".  

 

Im sorry but your reading comprehension and examples do not support your expectations. 

 

The Hex fires with a tight spread, allowing more pellets to contact targets at medium range efficiently, as long as you aim.

 

To prove that the HEK does not do this you need to prove the following:

 

Do other shotguns have similar dispersion at 'medium' ranges?

Do other shotguns inflict similar damage at 'medium' ranges?

Does the HEK spread to much to consistently hit targets at 'medium' ranges?

 

 

 

 

 

I am clearly miffed at how people continue to think a shotgun in a video game should be as accurate as a rifle at medium range. Provided the HEK has less dispersion and inflicts more damage because of its tighter cone than other shotguns, it is therefore more useful at medium range. If you would like a weapon that excels at medium or range I recommend the Bratton or Gorgon  If you want a weapon that excels at close range and is effective at medium range than use the HEK.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Judopunch

[Worira]

You seem to be under the impression that the accuracy of the Hek is the issue here. It is not. Spread on the shotguns is currently nearly meaningless, because damage falloff outpaces it far too much.

[Judopunch]

You seem to be under the impression that the accuracy of the Hek is the issue here. It is not. Spread on the shotguns is currently nearly meaningless, because damage falloff outpaces it far too much.

Untrue. 10 pellets hitting for 12 damage is significantly more damage than 5 pellets hitting for 12 damage. Spread is meaningless because most of the time in this game you are in optimal range anyways.

 

Now if another argument were to be made one could say 'shotgun fall off is to steep'. However that argument is not in stasis with the op's original assertions. The HEK out preforms other shotguns at longer ranges, because it more consistently lands hits, because it is more accurate.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Judopunch

[CloudPies]

Judopunch; most people would be comparing the description of the hek with all other rifles, not just the shotguns. Saying its efficient at medium range means it should be comparatively decent next to the braton at around 25 meters. However, if DE changes the wording to mean efficient compared to other shotguns, then there is nothing to complain about.

[ZAPTONE]

how does it compare to the other shotguns, though

[neKroMancer]

I feel the Hek after 7.10 is more balanced than two previous version of it. The first version's range was too long, the second's was too short. This one feels just right. If the OP is going to use 3-50 meter range as midrange, then it will be problematic once again when Hek start performing better than most weapons sharing the same midrange niche. It should be close to midrange shotgun and 20 - 25 meter works just fine for most players, consider that none of them showed up in the forum and demanded range extension.

A good analysis, nonetheless.

[Judopunch]

Judopunch; most people would be comparing the description of the hek with all other rifles, not just the shotguns. Saying its efficient at medium range means it should be comparatively decent next to the braton at around 25 meters. However, if DE changes the wording to mean efficient compared to other shotguns, then there is nothing to complain about.

 

Than that is just illogical on their part. A shotgun is not a rifle. There is nothing to complain about accept the average level of reading comprehension and logical comparison that seems to be missing from almost EVERY post on the HEK.

 

Furthermore I believe a HEK shoots 8 projectiles? Amusing they all connect even at the OPS math at 12 per at 28 meters.... thats still 96 damage. From a shotgun. How many rounds from a slimier modded Braton would it take to equal that? How long on target as well? And how would it measure up at even 20 meters where the HEK is doing 384 damage per trigger pull? Seriously?

 

From my experience most conflict happens at less than 30 meters anyways so I'm really confused why people cant apply basic logic and see that the damage for this gun is amazing.

 

So I'm confused, is 96 damage at mid range not a lot for one trigger pull? Because 384 at twenty meters is absurd.

 

How about 408 at 15 meters?

Edited May 7, 2013 by Judopunch

[Inez]

Appreciate the detailed analysis.  But the semantic argument about the HEK isn't really that important.  If the description is a little bit off, we'll all live.

[SFkenny]

I would like to see the same mods on the Strun and the Borg being tested in this hallway, for a nice spread of data.

 

Heck, I'd love to see every weapon in the game tested. This is a great shooting range area to check the accuracy and strength of mods. How did you make your measurements/get this data, OP?

[CloudPies]

Than that is just illogical on their part. A shotgun is not a rifle. There is nothing to complain about accept the average level of reading comprehension and logical comparison that seems to be missing from almost EVERY post on the HEK.

 

Furthermore I believe a HEK shoots 8 projectiles? Amusing they all connect even at the OPS math at 12 per at 28 meters.... thats still 96 damage. From a shotgun. How many rounds from a slimier modded Braton would it take to equal that? How long on target as well? And how would it measure up at even 20 meters where the HEK is doing 384 damage per trigger pull? Seriously?

 

From my experience most conflict happens at less than 30 meters anyways so I'm really confused why people cant apply basic logic and see that the damage for this gun is amazing.

 

So I'm confused, is 96 damage at mid range not a lot for one trigger pull? Because 384 at twenty meters is absurd.

 

How about 408 at 15 meters?

 

 

 

I made a suggestion to change the description to include "compared to other shotguns", not to increase the range of hek's damage drop off....

[Judopunch]

Negitory, you said

 

 

"The HEK is a powerful shotgun that fires its shots with a tight spread, making it efficient at medium range as long as its strong recoil is properly managed."

The keyword being "at", which is inclusive of the term "medium".  Unless DE decides that medium range is not half of the upper range from melee to long range, the word "at" in the Hek's description needs to be changed to "up to" because the weapon is still not efficient within at least half of the medium range spectrum.  It loses its efficiency after 25m or in otherwords it loses its efficiency within the first 6% of medium range still making it a short range shotgun.

 

 

However your entire analysis is flawed because the weapon does indeed preform well (90 damage per shot) at the ranges you were talking about. You dont analyze what 'efficient medium range damage' is. You state that its fall off begins harshly at what you would conclude medium range is. Therefor the wording is still correct. It does good damage at medium range, compared to other shotguns. 

 

Within your analysis we do not know if it remains competitive with other weapons at the same range because you have no data. Therefore we can not conclude if it is in more or less effective at medium ranges, because we have no baseline for comparison. 

 

You have wonderful analysis on the damage and fall off of the weapon, but the title of your post and what you are trying to support are not in sync. Unless we know what is considered 'efficient damage' at medium range, the wording is fine.

 

TLDR: splitting hares but its important. Are we saying it doesn't do enough damage at medium range? Are we saying the idea of medium range is a mystery? Is there a better gun at medium ranges? Damage falloff is not the same as loosing efficiency and it is still much more efficient at medium range than the other two shotguns.

[CloudPies]

snip

 

Was that in part directed at me?

Anyway, damage dropping to 58.3% around what could be considered medium range, judging by descriptions and range of other weapons, shouldn't be considered efficient by any means  

We are saying its confusing, and would be better if the description is changed

[Judopunch]

Was that in part directed at me?

Anyway, damage dropping to 58.3% around what could be considered medium range, judging by descriptions and range of other weapons, shouldn't be considered efficient by any means

We are saying its confusing, and would be better if the description is changed

It is when you compare it to other shotguns. (which the op did not do.)

Edited May 7, 2013 by Judopunch

[Cleesus]

Went back to using a latron or braton. It's just much more effective, no point in using a HEK anymore.

Me too, the Hek just isnt that same anymore. No point in using it over and Braton or Paris or Boltor since the range is still short.

[CloudPies]

It is when you compare it to other shotguns.

To change it so that the description is in comparison to other shotguns, yes. You took the words right out of my mouth! Here is a cookie! 

Edited May 7, 2013 by CloudPies

[Judopunch]

To change it so that the description is in comparison to other shotguns, yes. You took the words right out of my mouth! Here is a cookie! 

Also not suggested in the OP.

 

Neither are meaningful numbers showing 'medium range' damage across a spectrum. For all we know 7 damage per pellet all hitting at whatever range is the best damage in the game at that range.

 

Edit: Im not trying to ride your &#!, but his post has no basis for changing anything because there is no baseline comparison. How much damage does a Bratton do at the same range with the same mods? Is it more or less per round fired? How many rounds does it take to catch up? What if 'medium range' is the point just before the first steep drop-off and close is up until it stops doing full damage. 

 

Based on the information provided by the OP we dont even know if its better or worse, let alone to what degree, than other weapons of the same class. There is no grounds anywhere for any action because there is not a proper comparison! The only thing this post has is great numbers on damage fall off. But they dont have anything to compare to so we have no way of knowing if its efficient, because we have not a baseline for efficiency.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Judopunch

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Based on your picture, I would say 20m is already a very good range for a shotgun in a video game.

 

If they buffed the Hek to 49m, you might as well change it description to sniper rifle.

 

Note: I'm using video game's yardstick for measurement of distance, not real life.

[CloudPies]

Also not suggested in the OP.

 

Neither are meaningful numbers showing 'medium range' damage across a spectrum. For all we know 7 damage per pellet all hitting at whatever range is the best damage in the game at that range.

 

No, you're right, I bet the OP wouldn't be giving you a cookie...

 

I think your reading comprehension and example isn't taking into account the TITLE of the thread. While not as specific as my suggestion, do in fact propose a change to the description. While I understand your point of view, that there needs to be a reasonable range in which a shotgun is rendered not so effective, I'm not sure what you're arguing about with me any more...

[Judopunch]

No, you're right, I bet the OP wouldn't be giving you a cookie...

 

I think your reading comprehension and example isn't taking into account the TITLE of the thread. While not as specific as my suggestion, do in fact propose a change to the description. While I understand your point of view, that there needs to be a reasonable range in which a shotgun is rendered not so effective, I'm not sure what you're arguing about with me any more...

Check two posts up, I added some in the 'edit' that i made. Its frustrating for me because so many people have strong opinions and calls to action, but absolutely no basis or foundation for the change.

 

 

Also not suggested in the OP.

 

Neither are meaningful numbers showing 'medium range' damage across a spectrum. For all we know 7 damage per pellet all hitting at whatever range is the best damage in the game at that range.

 

Edit: Im not trying to ride your &#!, but his post has no basis for changing anything because there is no baseline comparison. How much damage does a Bratton do at the same range with the same mods? Is it more or less per round fired? How many rounds does it take to catch up? What if 'medium range' is the point just before the first steep drop-off and close is up until it stops doing full damage. 

 

Based on the information provided by the OP we dont even know if its better or worse, let alone to what degree, than other weapons of the same class. There is no grounds anywhere for any action because there is not a proper comparison! The only thing this post has is great numbers on damage fall off. But they dont have anything to compare to so we have no way of knowing if its efficient, because we have not a baseline for efficiency.

 

Edited May 7, 2013 by Judopunch