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Math On Why The Synoid Gammacor Is Massively Nerfed


CheckYourSix
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Many people don't seem to understand the math here.

Let us go with base damage numbers for comparison.

Old Synoid:

210 base damage, 2x fire rate, reload speed of 2 seconds, 75 magazine capacity, and 375 ammo capacity. Not going to take in headshot or critical or resistances for dps at this point as the comparison between the two for that hasn't changed in raw numbers, but it will effect effective dps as I will point out later.

210 * 2 = 420 burst damage per second. 2 rounds per second means continuous firing with a 75 round magazine of 37.5 and a half seconds. Reload speed adds on to that dps equation because reloading means zero dps for the 2 seconds of reloading before being able to fire again. To figure that out, take the total damage done during the 37.5 seconds of firing and divide by the extra 2 seconds.

(210 * 2 * 37.5) / 39.5 = 398.73 damage in 39.5 seconds sustained dps. With 375 ammo capacity the user can sustain that damage for 6 full magazines of 75 ammo. That is 235 seconds of using the weapon from 450 rounds to 0. That is a whole lot of time to use the weapon before being empty.

The new synoid sustained dps is a decent chunk less sustain dps than the old despite the "burst" being the same. Here is the new numbers for the new synoid.

28 base damage, 15x fire rate, reload speed of 2 seconds, 150 magazine capacity, 450 ammo capacity.

28 * 15 = 420 burst dps. This is the same as the old gammacor numbers. The problem isn't the burst exactly but the sustain. Here is the numbers for that.

15 rounds fired per second will go through 150 round magazine in 10 seconds. So using the same formula as above for sustain dps we get.

(28 * 15 * 10) / 12 = 350 sustained dps over the 12 second span of firing through 1 magazine load and then adding 2 seconds of reload. Basically a 15% dps drop over 1 magazine worth of sustain dps. The problem is multiplied for dps when adding in total ammo capacity though which is 150 + 450 = 600 / 150 = 4. This is 2 whole magazines less of ammo to use. Which means the new gammacor will run dry of ammo from full in 48 seconds.

So for comparison now lets look at the sustained over time frame.

Old = 398.73 sustained dps over 235 seconds
New = 350 sustained dps over 48 seconds

If no ammo for the new gammacor is found during or after that 48 seconds, to extrapolate the comparison out to 235 seconds the means the sustained dps for the new gammacor in comparison to the old is really

(350 * 48) / 235 = 71.49

Yep, that's 71.49 sustained dps when extrapolated out to 235 seconds for the new gammacor numbers if no ammo is found.

Now to the heart of it, how much ammo CAN be reasonably found in 48 seconds of firing versus 235 seconds of firing? With the old gammacor numbers it was fairly easy to find ammo in 235 seconds to always be at or near full ammo capacity. Which means the old gammacor could effectively fire indefinitely with the sustain dps it has. The new gammacor can find ammo to stay effectively firing in 48 seconds except when one factors in mods. Why? The problem of finding ammo to continue to fire indefinitely is exacerbated when factoring in mods that add dps based on fire rate. To maximize dps on the gammacor, most people took fire rate enhancement mods. Gunslinger, Lethal Torrent, and Anemic Agility. Those added 72%, 60%, and 90% fire rate respectively per maxed out mod. What does that do to the base numbers of both guns? Well let me show it. EDIT previous math had stacking multiplicative and additive multiplicative to the base as it really calculates.

Fire rate for old gammacor with maxed fire rate mods goes from 2 -> 2 + (2 * 1.72 - 2) + (2 * 1.6 - 2) + (2 * 1.9 -2) = 6.44
Fire rate for new gammacor with maxed fire rate mods goes from 15 -> 15 + (15 * 1.72 - 15) + (2 * 1.6 - 2) + (2 * 1.9 - 2) = 48.3

What does that mean? It means the old gammacor would take 11.65 seconds to empty a magazine from full. So the dps would go up but the ammo burn rate would as well on both. The new gammacor burns through a magazine in 150 / 34.8 = 3.11 seconds. These are the new sustain dps numbers factoring in fire rate mods. The .85 in the formula below is because Anemic Agility reduces base damage by 15% when maxed.

Old -> ((210 * .85) * 6.44 * 11.65) / 13.65 = 981.11 sustained dps which could be sustain over 6 reloads for 80 (79.9) seconds of continuous fire counting reload time.

New -> ((28 * 85) * 48.3 * 3.11) / 5.11 = 699.62 sustained dps that can be sustained over 4 reloads for 18.44 continuous fire counting reload time.

Just the difference from 981 to 700 is about a 30% dps reduction over 15% previously before mods. Also, the ability to find ammo during 23 seconds of shooting is far less than 80 seconds to keep up shooting. In fact, won't happen without ammo mods of some sort or ammo restore items. So that actually makes the effective new gammacor dps over the same 80 time frame when accounting for fire rate mods and not finding ammo to be at 161.46 dps.

Seriously 161 sustained dps with an item that already has 3 mods added to it over a 80 second time frame is pure junk!!! EVERY OTHER WEAPON DOES BETTER IN THAT SAME 80 SECOND TIME SPAN! This isn't hyperbole as the math numbers do not lie.

 

For comparison The Lato with the same 3 max rank mods has a sustained dps of 210 and it an effective dps as well over the entire time frame due to not having to run out of ammo during any given length of time. 210 effective sustained dps from Lato > 164 effective sustained dps from Synoid.

Now this isn't even taking into account truly effective dps which counts in crits, resistance damage modification, elemental damage, and most importantly headshot damage. Headshot damage is usually 2x damage. With a 100% accurate weapon it is fairly easy to land headshots on targets. With the fast pace of combat in Warframe, players with the old gammacor could aim at the general direction of an enemies "headshot" area and at least be guaranteed to do base damage with a good chance to find that sweet spot to do additional "headshot" damage. The ability to hold and burn with the gammacor allowed that previously. This is no more. You have to now take time to aim for the headshot, which slows down dps, or just hit the general area in the split second you have ammo for and hope you hit the head. There is no zeroing in on the headshot region of the target. So effective DPS when factoring in headshot damage is massively nerfed due to how little time the new gammacor has to fire before running out of ammo in the magazine and being forced to reload. This is especially a problem with high hitpoint enemies. More so with late time frame survival void missions where damage falls off due to enemy armor and hp scaling.

Which then leads to another problem. Over burn on targets. With the old gammacor it was easy to sweep a mob of enemies to kill many of them all at once, especially since the sweep would include some headshot damage shots on the group. With the new gammacor that is not possible. A sweep will not kill a mob of enemies at all as the ammo put on each target will be over burned to that target as it fires to damn fast.

The whole "nerf" this patch effectively renders this weapon ineffective at all. Especially when factoring in fire rate mods.

 

 

Adding an update to reflect warframe build new dps calcs. Also my own experience since trying out the new SG.

 

I have an SG that I forma'd up 6 times to fit in the following build.

 

http://warframe-builder.com/Secondary_Weapons/Builder/Synoid_Gammacor/t_30_33302222_193-5-5-195-0-5-200-6-5-202-2-5-204-4-10-206-7-5-209-1-5-404-3-5_195-6-209-6-202-6-404-9-204-7-193-6-200-5-206-6/en/3-0-55

 

Since I don't have a primed heated charge, this is basically the best dps build I could do for this weapon. It takes 6 forma to do this and if I was going to put in a primed heated charge (if I ever get one) would have taken a 7th forma.

 

Unfortunately this build will make me burn through everything I have in that 18 seconds as the math shows above. Even with a Nekros and a Greedy Mag in the group, there was no way to get ammo fast enough on T4S or T4D missions to keep up. You burn through your ammo on 2-5 targets and then are completely out. Which means no dps for a long time with that gun. So the effective dps of the gun is in the toilet. Even when I tried switching out mods to the following configuration:

 

http://warframe-builder.com/Secondary_Weapons/Builder/Synoid_Gammacor/t_30_33302222_193-5-5-195-0-5-202-2-5-204-4-10-206-7-5-209-1-5-210-3-5-408-6-5_195-6-209-6-202-6-210-9-204-7-193-6-408-11-206-6/en/3-0-55

 

it didn't make much of a difference in turns of effective sustainable dps. The ammo consumption is just far to high to use this weapon anymore on high end content. The fire rate drops down to 18.6 instead of 48.3, but with the lesser magazine count drop from 6 to 4, you still burn and run out of ammo. Not to mention the lesser dps means you aren't bursting for as much or taking down targets effectively any more either. So the effective sustain dps is still in the toilet with this build.

Edited by CheckYourSix
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Ammo mutation ? Plus the Sycore is still pretty useful. I don't see why there is such an outcry....other than the fact you now have to be careful and AIM. At Least they didn't nerf the damage, something to be happy about.

 

Inb4 megathread

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Too........much...............math.........

 

o.o I havent used my gammacor yet since the nerf (mainly because of farming chroma, still waiting for my profile pic to update here >.>) But overall I would have preffered a slight nerf to damage and increasing its ammo consumption slightly while shortening its clip to like 40-50. Would IMO be more balanced in that way. Ah well might as well bring out the old brakk/marelock/teslos akbolto's if I wanna do crap tons of damage that sustain themselves without killing all ammo supply.

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Very informative OP, I don't know about anyone else but I'm so sick of blowing a potato and 5 forma on a weapon I genuinely like, and its not such a hunk of junk so it would be a waste to forma and potatoes, just to have it absolutely nuclear nerfed into the ground 3 days later. Swear this must be the 5th or 6th time this crap has happened, I don't know why I keep coming back every 6 -8 months at this point, same crap happens every time, so sick of wasting blueprints and plat because a few people QQ because they took an obviously endgame, and hard to acquire weapon with multiple forma and max mods into a lvl 15 mission and cry like a baby that its "overpowered please nerf". Its the same thing as taking a Hind-D helicopter and unleashing hell on an anthill and say "Man, this things overpowered!". 

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Ammo mutation ? Plus the Sycore is still pretty useful. I don't see why there is such an outcry....other than the fact you now have to be careful and AIM. At Least they didn't nerf the damage, something to be happy about.

Inb4 megathread

If you have to use ammo mutation to get a gun to function, it's a crap gun.

Rakta Ballistca and Vaykor Marelok are now superior weapons.

Main reason I used Synoid Gammacor so much was because I didn't have to reload every 3 seconds. This game is so god damn reload heavy.

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It's just an increase in ammo consumption. Treat it like an automatic handheld SMG and you'll feel better about it.

 

At least the Synoid Gammacor has no travel time, no recoil, and has perfect accuracy. It's rare to find all three of these qualities on any handheld SMG in the game.

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The damage on my Synoid Gammacor's damage was changed. After polarizing it 3 time to fit all the mods the build was around 8000 dam. Now the same build is only 1209.6 dam. My base Gammacor with no polarizing and still empty slots is beating with 1523.2. I'ld like all my forma back.

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you do realize, that the Burst and Sustained Damage Output of Synoid Gammacor previously - was almost the same number, right?

which isn't supposed to happen.

so now Sustained is lower, which is the way that every other Weapon in the game works.

pick up Ammo once sometimes, or stop shooting sometimes.

Edit:

i don't know how to math

please learn to math. the amount of Damage while you're shooting is exactly the same as it was before. Edited by taiiat
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Ammo mutation ? Plus the Sycore is still pretty useful. I don't see why there is such an outcry....other than the fact you now have to be careful and AIM. At Least they didn't nerf the damage, something to be happy about.

 

Inb4 megathread

 

Person that didn't read. The effective DPS was nerfed by 99%. It is literally now the worst effective dps weapon in the game. It is not balanced at all. They didn't nerf it into balance with other weapons. They nerfed it into a spitwad compared to even the Lato. It is horrible for effective dps.

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Person that didn't read. The effective DPS was nerfed by 99%. It is literally now the worst effective dps weapon in the game. It is not balanced at all. They didn't nerf it into balance with other weapons. They nerfed it into a spitwad compared to even the Lato. It is horrible for effective dps.

Worse than Lato? Over-reaction much?

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you do realize, that the Burst and Sustained Damage Output of Synoid Gammacor previously - was almost the same number, right?

which isn't supposed to happen.

so now Sustained is lower, which is the way that every other Weapon in the game works.

pick up Ammo once sometimes, or stop shooting sometimes.

 

 

Another person that fails to read. Look at where I get into effective dps number comparisons especially when factoring in fire rate mods. The effective dps of the old gammacor numbers with only fire rate mods was 1460 dps that could be continually sustained over 53 seconds and indefinitely as finding ammo within that time frame from fallen enemies was doable. The effective dps of the new gammacor with the same fire rate mods is 79 dps. Not 1460 but 79 floor if no ammo is found during the a full burn within 15 seconds. Some will be, but not enough to continuously fire for 53 seconds like the old gammacor could.

Worse than Lato? Over-reaction much?

 

Did you not read how I explain that?

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The gun still works on high level enemies...so I'm not sure what the problem is.

The same problem as when Trinity was unable to make an entire team immortal. People want to be able to walk up to a lvl 100 Corrupted Bombard and kill it in a second without risk to themselves.

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Another person that fails to read. Look at where I get into effective dps number comparisons especially when factoring in fire rate mods. The effective dps of the old gammacor numbers with only fire rate mods was 1460 dps that could be continually sustained over 53 seconds and indefinitely as finding ammo within that time frame from fallen enemies was doable. The effective dps of the new gammacor with the same fire rate mods is 79 dps. Not 1460 but 79 floor if no ammo is found during the a full burn within 15 seconds. Some will be, but not enough to continuously fire for 53 seconds like the old gammacor could.

 

Did you not read how I explain that?

I can currently kill anything in the game except maybe high level t4 enemies with a single mag, that is way more than I could ask for with a pistol.

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The same problem as when Trinity was unable to make an entire team immortal. People want to be able to walk up to a lvl 100 Corrupted Bombard and kill it in a second without risk to themselves.

 

No, I want a balanced weapon. If the intent of the nerf was to bring about a 15% sustained damage nerf, then dropping the base damage from 210 to 190 would have done that while only decreasing the effective sustained dps by 15% as well.

 

Instead the sustained dps during the duration of continuous fire is actually reduced by up to 40% when factoring in fire rate mods, and the effective sustain dps has been nerfed by up to 99%.

 

The numbers do not lie. The weapon is completely gutted from it's previous level of use.

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Another person that fails to read.

no, you're just calculating your math wrong.

Weapons are not to be used as something that you keep shooting with at all times just incase an Enemy walks in front of it.

you're grasping at straws. there is no need to fire a Weapon permanently. calculating hypothetical Sustained Damage where Ammunition doesn't exist and the Enemy has infinite Health is pretty pointless.

there is Ammunition, and whatever you're shooting at doesn't have Infinite Health.

whatever it is will die in a fraction of a second just like before, which means you can stop firing in a fraction of a second, just like before.

you can use up your Ammunition for any Weapon very easily if we use your incorrect logic.

take any of your Weapons in the game, and start firing when the Mission starts, don't stop for any reason until the Mission is over.

good job.

Edit:

Then dropping the base damage from 210 to 190 would have done that while only decreasing the effective sustained dps by 15% as well.

wow, you are very bad at math.

if it's Damage was retained at 190, congratulations, you just multiplied the Effectiveness of the Weapon by 6.7857x of what it was originally. meaning Sustained Damage would go up obnoxiously because of the Damage.

so in other words, you're grasping at straws to try and get the easiest to use & lowest TTK Weapon in the game several times multiplied just incase nobody else catches your math faults.

Edited by taiiat
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I just ran some calcs, and if you assume that you fire continuously for 1 hr, you get no ammo, and your enemies have infinite health, then all weapons effectively have zero dps. 

 

DE why you nerf

 

But seriously, you did a good job explaining how increased fire rate with the same mag size and reload time converts into a sustained damage nerf, but the idea that because you have a quarter (or whatever) of the effective ammo then the dps is also quartered is ludicrous.

Edited by ArbitUHM
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I just ran some calcs, and if you assume that you fire continuously for 1 hr, you get no ammo, and your enemies have infinite health, then all weapons effectively have zero dps. 

 

DE why you nerf

 

But seriously, you did a good job explaining how increased fire rate with the same mag size and reload time converts into a sustained damage nerf, but the idea that because you have a quarter (or whatever) of the effective ammo than the dps is also quartered is ludicrous.

 

 

Here is the problem as it is by effective dps with ammo. With the new synoid changes, you over burn targets due to higher fire rate. Which means that more ammo is spent killing each unit than needed. Which effectively means less kills per magazine. Less kills means less chance of ammo drops compared to more kills. Couple that with how fast the new synoid can burn through ALL it's ammo due to having 2 whole magazines worth of less ammo compared to previously means the chance of finding ammo from the fewer kills made in the time frame you can shoot the gun is exacerbated.

 

This is expecially true when it comes to late T4 missions. Where you'll spend an entire magazine almost killing 1 high hitpoint target. Which means reloading and then using a second magazine to kill the target. That effectively means using two magazines to kill a high hitpoint target. With only 4 magazines to use that means killing 2 high hitpoint targets in late T4 missions. You might get lucky and have both kills drop a pistol ammo each. Giving you 40 more ammo that you'll burn through in less than a second killing nothing with by then?

 

You are the one with the hyperbole here when it comes to extrapolating ammo drops within a time frame and effective use of a weapon.

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My point was that we can discuss the effective use of a weapon in the context of ammo efficiency, but dps is a bad statistic to assess it. Do you really think the weapon is less effective than a Lato? How effective do you think that Lato would be against an enemy that soaks up two SG magazines?

 

Also, I'm betting if I stack every possible fire rate mod on an Embolist or Grakata I can make those weapons look worse than a Lato if I factor total ammo capacity into dps calculations. You don't stack fire rate mods on a bullet hose. Maybe if you change up the SG build, you wont come up with dps calcs that are worse than the worst weapon in the game.

Edited by ArbitUHM
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