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Math On Why The Synoid Gammacor Is Massively Nerfed


CheckYourSix
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My point was that we can discuss the effective use of a weapon in the context of ammo efficiency, but dps is a bad statistic to assess it. Do you really think the weapon is less effective than a Lato? How effective do you think that Lato would be against an enemy that soaks up two SG magazines?

 

Also, I'm betting if I stack every possible fire rate mod on an Embolist or Grakata I can make those weapons look worse than a Lato if I factor total ammo capacity into dps calculations. You don't stack fire rate mods on a bullet hose. Maybe if you change up the SG build, you wont come up with dps calcs that are worse than the worst weapon in the game.

 

The lato is junk for 40+ minutes in a T4 survival of 40+ waves in a T4 defense. Absolute junk. I wouldn't use it and no one else would either. Same thing can NOW be said for the Synoid Gammacor as well as it is effectively WORSE than the Lato over all.

 

You seem to have a comprehension problem going on. The Synoid Gammacor was an effective weapon, one of a few select really, that could be used to farm for gear in the void that requires players to have really good gear if they don't want to blow through keys due to ridiculously scaling of enemies.

 

Was the old Synoid Gammacor overkill for blewing up Grinneer on Earth or Jupiter? Damn skipping it was. I could use a Lato just as effectively there to mow through the content. But the void is the end game and where lesser equipment falls off. With 220 possible weapons in the game, the vast majority of them are garbage for end game content. Like about 200 out of that 220. Which means only a select few min/max combinations of guns, mods, and warframes can be used effectively in the end game content of Warframe. The old Synoid was once one of those weapons. It is no longer one of those.

 

I'm just hoping now DE nerfs every other end game weapon/mod into the ground so the void can no longer effectively be done with anything. They stated they wanted to nuke the void and I guess that is one way to do it.

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First thing first: Rate of fire ONLY affects DPS, but not your ammo economy. No surprise there.

 

That said, even I, who thought it was too OP before, thought nerf was a bit too much. It has the same DPS (while firing, is what I mean) as before, but the ammo economy is worse than even the REGULAR Gammacor... That's just not right. If I'd propose something, I'd say these number would be better:

 

* 5 RoF

* 65-ish damage

* Similar or slightly bigger magsize than the regular Gammacor

* Same amount of spare ammo as the regular Gammacor

 

^ Then it'd feel like a decent upgrade from the regular one, not such a massive upgrade (pre-nerf version) or like a semi-DOWNgrade (current version).

 

Considering how beamweapons work (with their limited range and such and current horrible delayed damage mechanic), they ALL really ought to have a better ammo economy (thus slower RoF) than regular automatic weapons. Anywhere from 3 RoF (a number I'd put on the Quanta) to a max somwhere at 5 - 7 sounds good. But 15?? That's just too stupidly much. Ever wondered why Glaxion was shunned so fast before (and STILL is, mostly)? Yeah, because of the stupidly bad ammo economy (due to way too high RoF).

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The lato is junk for 40+ minutes in a T4 survival of 40+ waves in a T4 defense. Absolute junk. I wouldn't use it and no one else would either. Same thing can NOW be said for the Synoid Gammacor as well as it is effectively WORSE than the Lato over all.

 

I'm just wondering if you're actually insane?

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I'm just wondering if you're actually insane?

Just wondering why you keep posting after having been burned already by another poster who shows clearly why you have no idea what the hell you are talking about in regards to this.without actually understanding how the game plays.

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What this really means to me: "Damnit, guess I can't sell the Gammacor for easy plats."

 

The Rakta Ballistica is selling very well now as many are using it as an alternative. Vaykor Marelok is also an okay alternative. There is still the Amprex, Boltor Prime, Soma Prime, and Paris Prime which basically now round out the effective weapons one can use for 40+ minutes of anything in a T4 mission.

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Just wondering why you keep posting after having been burned already by another poster who shows clearly why you have no idea what the hell you are talking about in regards to this. Now go back to class and let the adults discuss this and then you can beg mommy to use the credit card again when the next prime access comes out so you can look cool because you bought your access to everything without actually understanding how the game plays.

 

That other poster didn't burn anyone. 

 

It's cute that you can't muster a better argument than insults, though.

 

The Synoid is not worse than the Lato. Your calculations are meaningless because they do not take the actual damage of the gun into consideration. The Lato stops killing enemies halfway through the star chart, the Synoid is still killing in T4. 

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That other poster didn't burn anyone.

It's cute that you can't muster a better argument than insults, though.

The Synoid is not worse than the Lato. Your calculations are meaningless because they do not take the actual damage of the gun into consideration. The Lato stops killing enemies halfway through the star chart, the Synoid is still killing in T4.

Well the arugment I muster is hard math numbers as well as gameplay experience and all you can muster from the get go is insults since you have a comprehension problem and don't understand math. On top of that, everything in game you get is something you bought and are terrible at playing the warframe as shown by another poster by the stats on your profile

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Yeah your "hard math numbers" involve multiplying the new SG sustained dps by the number of seconds it can fire before running out of ammo, dividing by the number of seconds the old SG could fire before running out of ammo, then comparing that number to the sustained dps of a Lato with infinite ammo. If you don't see how that is not a legit analysis, then well...

 

I'm just wondering if you're actually insane?

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Yeah your "hard math numbers" involve multiplying the new SG sustained dps by the number of seconds it can fire before running out of ammo, dividing by the number of seconds the old SG could fire before running out of ammo, then comparing that number to the sustained dps of a Lato with infinite ammo. If you don't see how that is not a legit analysis, then well...

 

Because the old gammacor was ammo efficient meaning you could effectively find enough ammo from the kills you made while continuously firing to maintain that continuous fire rate. A Lato is the same way. You can continue to fire a Lato non stop while making kills and still find enough ammo to do so from your kills.

 

You CANNOT do that with the new synoid gammacor anymore at all. Especially in late T4 mission runs. It's impossible to do so. How much ammo can be found? Don't know but it's not enough to continuously sustain a continuous fire rate to maintain close to that theoretical max sustain dps it has.That why I state effective sustain dps. On an Ancient Eximus in T4 survival 40+ minute in the new gammacor will kill with using 2 full magazines and you may get a single 20 round drop from it. The old gammacor wouldn't even use a full magazine to kill 3 of them. If you can't not understand what that does to effective dps then you are brain dead.

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Well, from my own play testing. It goes to crap after it needs more than 1/10 of a second to kill the NPC. Simply burns far too much ammo to use it on things that would need a second of fire to actually kill. Ammo mutation will fix nothing on a weapon that burns as much ammo as this weapon does. It's now a low-mid-range weapon just like Twin vipers and all the other ammo hogs.

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Well the arugment I muster is hard math numbers as well as gameplay experience and all you can muster from the get go is insults since you have a comprehension problem and don't understand math. On top of that, everything in game you get is something you bought and are terrible at playing the warframe as shown by another poster by the stats on your profile.

 

Since all your own arguments have been nothing but drivel and insults from the get go and hard numbers haven't swayed you from your troll agenda, I may as well have a much fun insulting you back.

 

I just now noticed that other poster bring up my account. Ad Hominem attacks are exciting, but also meaningless. I've spent about 5 dollars on this game, I think, and this is my second account. His wonderful, wonderful string of insults proved nothing, as usual.

 

Though actually, I did quite like his post. He pointed out an important piece of the puzzle that I don't think I often consider: Void drop tables are totally borked. In a way, it's confirmed one of the things I've always insisted, that artificial stat scaling is bad for this game. So I'm going to do a total 180 here. I know this isn't something internet people do often, but congrats, you've done it. For the current state of the game, this nerf is bad. In an ideal situation, without considering anything other than weapon numbers, it works. But when taking into account the full picture, void drops, infinite scaling, all that, you're right. This was not great. That doesn't mean I don't agree with the principle of it, though. This game needs to become a game where weapons can actually be balanced, and we're not stuck in a pit of power creep to chase increasingly elusive rewards. Infinite scaling needs to go, and void tables need a serious look. Those are both things I've been saying for a long time. 

 

Basically, here's the short version; In a vacuum, this nerf is appropriate. We don't exist in a vacuum though. Before major balance changes can be made, we need to change the structure of the game. So sure, I guess I sort of agree with you. You're using ridiculous hyperbole to prove a point, but the point is valid.

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Essentially...new and old SGs does similiar damage but to acheive that with the new version....one must have ammo.

 

So if you run out of ammo (and you will on higher level mobs) you do zero dps.

 

Not an option.

 

SG is now a mediocre mid tier weapon at best. Meh.

 

p.s. regular gram is now better than the upgraded one...how does that make sense? Incoming nerf!

Edited by fizbit
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I just now noticed that other poster bring up my account. Ad Hominem attacks are exciting, but also meaningless. I've spent about 5 dollars on this game, I think, and this is my second account. His wonderful, wonderful string of insults proved nothing, as usual.

 

Though actually, I did quite like his post. He pointed out an important piece of the puzzle that I don't think I often consider: Void drop tables are totally borked. In a way, it's confirmed one of the things I've always insisted, that artificial stat scaling is bad for this game. So I'm going to do a total 180 here. I know this isn't something internet people do often, but congrats, you've done it. For the current state of the game, this nerf is bad. In an ideal situation, without considering anything other than weapon numbers, it works. But when taking into account the full picture, void drops, infinite scaling, all that, you're right. This was not great. That doesn't mean I don't agree with the principle of it, though. This game needs to become a game where weapons can actually be balanced, and we're not stuck in a pit of power creep to chase increasingly elusive rewards. Infinite scaling needs to go, and void tables need a serious look. Those are both things I've been saying for a long time. 

 

Basically, here's the short version; In a vacuum, this nerf is appropriate. We don't exist in a vacuum though. Before major balance changes can be made, we need to change the structure of the game. So sure, I guess I sort of agree with you. You're using ridiculous hyperbole to prove a point, but the point is valid.

 

 

That is the point!

 

If you are advocating to bring every weapon in the game to an effective sustained dps of 12K or less when fully modded then great, but the game needs to be balanced around that because currently it is not. I could care less if the synoid is now a 12K effective sustained dps weapon so long as it was overall still an effective weapon. It is not. There is a very small pool of effective high end content weapons/mods/warframe abilities in this game to use and everything else is worthless. Just as you stated earlier when pointing out no one brings a Lato into a T4 survival mission and expects to use it especially 40+ minutes into the mission. Well no crap. The point is, this change basically does the same thing effectively to the synoid gammacor. Where previously it was one of the few usable weapons in that end game scenario, now it is not. The numbers I've pointed out illustrates why it is no longer effective to use over other weapons.

Edited by CheckYourSix
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That is the point!

 

If you are advocating to bring every weapon in the game to an effective sustained dps of 12K or less when fully modded then great, but the game needs to be balanced around that because currently it is not. I could care less if the synoid is now a 12K effective sustained dps weapon so long as it was overall still an effective weapon. It is not. There is a very small pool of effective high end content weapons/mods/warframe abilities in this game to use and everything else is worthless. Just as you stated earlier when pointing out no one brings a Lato into a T4 survival mission and expects to use it especially 40+ minutes into the mission. Well no crap. The point is, this change basically does the same thing effectively to the synoid gammacor. Where previously it was one of the few usable weapons in that end game scenario, now it is not. The numbers I've pointed out illustrates why it is no longer effective to use over other weapons.

 

Now, I'd argue that it's still an effective weapon because of its extremely high burst potential, but I see what you're saying.

 

And as I've said, the problem is infinite scaling. If that didn't exist, we wouldn't be having any of these problems.

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TL;DR

 then your opinion has no weight in this thread.

 

On Topic:

the fire rate needs to be balanced to 9 rounds per second at base and damage adjusted to match the 420 burst DPS, the magazine needs to be set to 200, and the reserves need to be boosted to 600 rounds. I'm "okay" with this adjustment for now, but the sustained damage needs to be brought back higher in the near future. the weapon is in a difficult spot, as its now fighting against the brakk for burst damage/sustained damage, when it WAS in the middle of the Brakk and Marelok.

 

I still dont see the point in nerfing the Synoid.

 

we had the brakk at 70k burst DPS for close range

synoid at 45-50k burst for mid range

and the marelok at 30-35k burst for long range.

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Now, I'd argue that it's still an effective weapon because of its extremely high burst potential, but I see what you're saying.

 

And as I've said, the problem is infinite scaling. If that didn't exist, we wouldn't be having any of these problems.

 

Burst doesn't matter! Otherwise we'd all run around with Brakks all this time. It has the highest burst in the game and barely used. Why? The sustain and effective sustain isn't near as good as other weapons. Who cares if I overkill my targets with every shot when I can't shoot at another target before I die?

 

Who cares if the gammacor can effectively kill a few high level enemies while it has ammo because it will run out of ammo doing so leaving you without a weapon that can be used.

 

It's effective sustained dps that matters and the guns with the highest get used and those without are regulated to "fun" modes of play or mastery rank fodder.

 

The synoid gammacor is not mastery rank fodder. It no longer has the effective sustained dps needed to be used in any high end game content at all. There are much better weapons than it now. Look at the trade channel and look at all the people trying to buy a Rakta Ballisca or Vaykor Marelok and you might begin to understand why.

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Burst doesn't matter! Otherwise we'd all run around with Brakks all this time. It has the highest burst in the game and barely used. Why? The sustain and effective sustain isn't near as good as other weapons. Who cares if I overkill my targets with every shot when I can't shoot at another target before I die?

 

Who cares if the gammacor can effectively kill a few high level enemies while it has ammo because it will run out of ammo doing so leaving you without a weapon that can be used.

 

It's effective sustained dps that matters and the guns with the highest get used and those without are regulated to "fun" modes of play or mastery rank fodder.

 

The synoid gammacor is not mastery rank fodder. It no longer has the effective sustained dps needed to be used in any high end game content at all. There are much better weapons than it now. Look at the trade channel and look at all the people trying to buy a Rakta Ballisca or Vaykor Marelok and you might begin to understand why.

 

I see Brakks pretty often. Hell, I use the Boar Prime. I know all about sucky sustained DPS. Sustain isn't the only thing that matters.

 

I'll say it again: I agree with your point, though I don't agree with the rhetoric. 

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Ammo mutation ? Plus the Sycore is still pretty useful. I don't see why there is such an outcry....other than the fact you now have to be careful and AIM. At Least they didn't nerf the damage, something to be happy about.

 

Inb4 megathread

Technically the damage was nerfed...

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I see Brakks pretty often. Hell, I use the Boar Prime. I know all about sucky sustained DPS. Sustain isn't the only thing that matters.

 

I'll say it again: I agree with your point, though I don't agree with the rhetoric. 

 

No you don't see the point. Take any other level progression system game out there. If there is equipment progression there is always a "best" in slot item as well. Maybe a game has a bit more flair with a few different items that compete for a best in slot. Great for those games. The point being that it takes a best in item to tackle the hardest game content with any game. That hasn't changed nor will ever change in a level progression based game. That is the defining quality/characteristic of such games. One doesn't bring their starting club in D&D when taking on a dragon they need their +6 vorpal sword of bunny beheading!

 

The point I'm making is warframe has several weapons that are feasible for end game content. It is a small pool, but no one brings the lato to the end game because it is the equivalent of the starting newbie club in an RPG. It's a starting item that is used as a stepping stone to better items. The Synoid Gammacor up until this patch was the equivalent of the +6 vorpal sword of bunny slaying! or maybe mongoose slaying! oh whatever. Who cares. Point being it was an end game weapon that competed with other end game weapons. Maybe in many ways out edged a few of the other endgame weapons a bit for popularity for various reasons. However, the nerf has decimated it's usability. It went from +6 vorpal bunny slaying status to newbie wood club status. It was over nerfed and is now effectively garbage that will not be used by any player in high end game content that isn't being stubborn after the patch or being just as silly as a person bringing a lato into a T4 survival run and hoping to go 60 minutes.

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No you don't see the point. Take any other level progression system game out there. If there is equipment progression there is always a "best" in slot item as well. Maybe a game has a bit more flair with a few different items that compete for a best in slot. Great for those games. The point being that it takes a best in item to tackle the hardest game content with any game. That hasn't changed nor will ever change in a level progression based game. That is the defining quality/characteristic of such games. One doesn't bring their starting club in D&D when taking on a dragon they need their +6 vorpal sword of bunny beheading!

 

Warframe is just as much TPS as it is RPG, so balance needs to be handled differently. 

 

In a pure RPG, it's accepted that there will be a "best item". It's usually the goal of the progression system in that game. But in shooters, you generally want to have a wide range of items that are all equally good, with progression leading to sidegrades catering to various playstyles. Warframe sits somewhere between the two, but things like old Acrid or Synoid Gammacor tip it too far away from shooter and into RPG. 

 

We rely on skill just as much as we rely on stats, and game balance needs to accommodate that.

 

Yeah, the Synoid was nerfed a bit too hard. It deserved a nerf, but not to this extent. 

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The Synoid Gammacor had well over twice the DPS of the Boltor Prime with absolutely no downsides other than a range cap that was actually not that bad and could be easily fixed. Now there's actually a reason to use a different weapon instead. I simply don't understand how anyone could possibly think that this nerf was bad. I hope the Synoid will come to fill the role that the Twin Wraith vipers did, where it provides extremely high DPS for an extremely limited time. The TWV didn't have good ammo economy or high sustained, but they were still awesome.

 

"Fans are whining, arrogant little dip***** who will never, EVER be grateful for ANYTHING you do, and the second you shut out their miserable cries, the happier you'll be." -Zero Punctuation

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Warframe is just as much TPS as it is RPG, so balance needs to be handled differently. 

 

In a pure RPG, it's accepted that there will be a "best item". It's usually the goal of the progression system in that game. But in shooters, you generally want to have a wide range of items that are all equally good, with progression leading to sidegrades catering to various playstyles. Warframe sits somewhere between the two, but things like old Acrid or Synoid Gammacor tip it too far away from shooter and into RPG. 

 

We rely on skill just as much as we rely on stats, and game balance needs to accommodate that.

 

Yeah, the Synoid was nerfed a bit too hard. It deserved a nerf, but not to this extent. 

 

 

That what I was proving with the math. Had they wanted a simple 15% dps nerf then taking the max damage from 210 to 190 would have been fine. Or if they wanted to nerf the ammo economy a bit then taking the fire rate from 2 to 4 or 6 with a debuff to the damage per shot would have accomplished the same thing. It would have been a nice incremental nerf to the weapon. Instead the gun isn't worth ever using in any of the end game content at all when there are far better weapons that greatly out perform the new nerfed version.

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That what I was proving with the math. Had they wanted a simple 15% dps nerf then taking the max damage from 210 to 190 would have been fine. Or if they wanted to nerf the ammo economy a bit then taking the fire rate from 2 to 4 or 6 with a debuff to the damage per shot would have accomplished the same thing. It would have been a nice incremental nerf to the weapon. 

 

This is the part I agree with.

 

They also reversed the roles for the Synoid and the regular Gammacor. Originally, the vanilla was the burst gun and the Synoid was the sustained gun. Now, a buff and a nerf later, those have switched, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

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