Lets Nerf The Nerf On Synoid Gammacor

[Heidrek]

If Synoid Gammacor get's nerfed, let's nerf the vaykor Marelok, the telos akbolto, Rakta Ballistica soma prime, boltor Prime, hell there They're OP as hell, and ALL AT THE PRICE OF 20 PLAT.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Heidrek

[Bobtm]

Snipped it down, but the whole thing is relevant.

The problem with ammo being a balancing mechanism is this game is not all about extermination mission with a fixed number of NPCs.

I pretty much couldn't agree more.

 

If Synoid Gammacor get's nerfed, let's nerf the vaykor Marelok, the telos akbolto, Rakta Ballistica soma prime, boltor Prime, hell there They're OP as hell, and ALL AT THE PRICE OF 20 PLAT.

There's nothing good to come of kneejerk doomsday ideology here, so why go this course?  I specifically covered uptime in my above post if you'd have noted, and these guns have a more reasonable uptime than what the SG had prior.  Especially so when looking at its damage and other comparative factors.

 

Nerf doesn't mean useless.  It's why I'm trying to suggest alternate changes that can keep the SG in a state that its users can enjoy.  Acting in the way you're doing won't solve anything.  Constructive thoughts are the proper route here.

[Heidrek]

That's just nonsensical entirely.  Saying a developer has to do it is silly at the start, and saying that no Forma is allowed yet they need to reach the one-hour mark in a Survival (I'm assuming you mean T4 even though you didn't specify) when...

 

Well Forma is a progression tool.  An hour into T4S isn't meant to be a baseline gameplay point players reach without effort through progression and a combination of mods or other tools.  So the test/challenge you're putting forth exists in a flawed place in every concievable way.

T4s became the baseline because of power creeping weapons. If you think that no can do it I have to argue with that against vaykor marelok.

Well If we're talking about progress, 6-8 forma can get any weapon through survival. Also The gammacor has 2 polarities built in so you dont even need one to be good. Not to mention the catalyst and Forma used to get to the highest rank. 

And hey to make things fair. Why don't we just the vaykor marelok while we're at it. It's amazing. <-- Note I'm sarcastic. 

 

[Davoodoo]

I could bring just my vaykor marelok and still survive, heck I don't even need a mellee weapon. 

You can do it without resorting to using buffs, aoe cc and nukes??

 

If you say that perma invis isnt p42w i wont even bother arguing(though you break your own rules), as long as enemy is harmless i can actually do it on these terms with synoid.

[Heidrek]

Snipped it down, but the whole thing is relevant.

I pretty much couldn't agree more.

 

There's nothing good to come of kneejerk doomsday ideology here, so why go this course?  I specifically covered uptime in my above post if you'd have noted, and these guns have a more reasonable uptime than what the SG had prior.  Especially so when looking at its damage and other comparative factors.

 

Nerf doesn't mean useless.  It's why I'm trying to suggest alternate changes that can keep the SG in a state that its users can enjoy.  Acting in the way you're doing won't solve anything.  Constructive thoughts are the proper route here.

I agree with the ammo problem(hey at least it's not wraith twin vipers), but I want a fix. If people are arguing that it's fine as it is. They're gonna have to have at least feel the weapon in endgame stuff,minus raids, rather than making a 5 minute video about it's dmg.

EDIT: needed parenthesis 

Edited March 29, 2015 by Heidrek

[Heidrek]

You can do it without resorting to using buffs, aoe cc and nukes??

 

If you say that perma invis isnt p42w i wont even bother arguing(though you break your own rules), as long as enemy is harmless i can actually do it on these terms with synoid.

Of course I'm getting buffed and got that CC. Vaykor gives me a lot of health and armor, and blast procs everything in a room. As for my frame, I played a valkyr, I need to run in and kill that nullifier, if I dont wanna die. Also, I usually kill a stray bombard, and trigger the blast proc to knock the nullifier down, kill him and run away EDIT: or zipline my way out.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Heidrek

[(XBOX)CaptainRemo]

I read this whole thread and I think I agree with the reduction of the nerf. A weapon is useless if it has no ammo to be used. It doesn't matter how strong the Synoid is if it is on your hip not being used right? I think a straight up damage nerf would have been better. I don't use weapons that run out of ammo too fast, especially secondaries. Makes it very hard to justify when to use them over something else.

 

Also, I don't understand why just the synoid got a nerf when there are weapons that were close equals. Now it sounds like the synoid is closer to the back of the pack when we think about syndicate weapons.

 

Nerfing just one weapon takes some brass. There is going to be a lot of unhappy people afterward, especially if it was a top tier weapon. I think it would be better if DE threw out a few different nerfs for us to play with and then lets use decide what kind of SG we want. Leave it to the players, no?

[SquirmyBurrito]

While crit weapons get x4 multiplier on headshot while non crit ones get "only" x2 dmg they also have 2 additional slots filled by elemental mods making up for that difference, then secondaries have 220% dmg increase versus primaries 330% but 180% multishot bonus vs 90% on primaries.

 

Synoid actually does more dmg per ammo used than soma.

 

Then soma actually isnt any easier to use, unless you know exactly how many bullets you use your dps will suffer greatly(its already lower than synoid) or you will overtap. Discipline affects both weapons.

Then its a problem only when youre oneshotting mobs and theres really no real way to run out of ammo at that phase.

 

Speed trigger and vile accel are also a thing and ppl use them on soma, shred gives you advantage over any secondary but from what i talked to ppl really few use it.

As side note once you put shred its usually better to aim at center of mass to get additional punch throughs which makes headshot argument pretty void.

 

The 2 additional elemental mod argument falls flat when referring to the Synoid Gammacor where a pistol ammo mutation mod is a requirement.

 

The Soma is far easier to use as it has infinite range.

 

Gunslinger and Anemic whatever are a thing and people use those on the Synoid Gammacor sometimes, and the second-secondary multishot mod comes with an inherent firerate increase.

 

I used to use shred on my Soma in place of other firerate mods because of the punchthrough. I no longer use my Soma since the Soma Prime is a thing (that I haven't gotten around to acquiring yet). Better in what way? Outside close-range, the difference in head-level between enemies standing even remotely near each other isn't significant enough to make headshots not worth attempting. Especially when facing Grineer or Corpus. In the Void and when facing infested it will vary.

[SquirmyBurrito]

That's just nonsensical entirely.  Saying a developer has to do it is silly at the start, and saying that no Forma is allowed yet they need to reach the one-hour mark in a Survival (I'm assuming you mean T4 even though you didn't specify) when...

 

I don't agree with the underlined statement as I do feel the best way to get a developer to understand is to sit them down and have them play through the level ranges that a top-tier weapon is expected to be able to face given its stats. I do agree with the no-forma thing being pretty dumb, but at the same time I can't help but think a Dev would just give themselves maxed mods, add polarities, and then, should they manage to complete the challenge, not understand the amount of work that would normally go into being able to complete a run like that. This is unsubstantiated of course, but it is what I truly believe to be the case.

[Bobtm]

I don't agree with the underlined statement as I do feel the best way to get a developer to understand is to sit them down and have them play through the level ranges that a top-tier weapon is expected to be able to face given its stats. I do agree with the no-forma thing being pretty dumb, but at the same time I can't help but think a Dev would just give themselves maxed mods, add polarities, and then, should they manage to complete the challenge, not understand the amount of work that would normally go into being able to complete a run like that. This is unsubstantiated of course, but it is what I truly believe to be the case.

 

I get where you're coming from for sure, my issue with the developer thing is that they're not always the best at actually being successful in a game.  This next part is of course a generalization, but it's common to see developers not spending a great deal of time playing their own game through normal means.  As noted all generalizations will have clear and obvious exceptions, but I don't agree with the notion that a test/challenge like that is only appropriate if a developer is doing it.  I do agree with the part underlined for sure however.  Though if memory serves Glen puts a fair bit of time into accomplishing game tasks through normal means.  There are likely other devs who do just the same for sure and can pull off endgame stuff right alongside other players.

 

Back to the point though the devs aren't special in the regard of actually playing a game so long as dev tools aren't being used to grant them an unfair advantage.  They're no different than any other player, so issuing a challenge like that doesn't really hold any weight to it.  Basically I'd say that, forgoing the Forma part, that challenge would be more aptly applied to any player.  Saying "devs only" just sounds like a way to try and prove a point through the unlikelihood of a developer just showing up and throwing their personal time at doing just that.  Whereas issuing that challenge to all players will invite a load of people to step up to the plate.

[SquirmyBurrito]

I get where you're coming from for sure, my issue with the developer thing is that they're not always the best at actually being successful in a game.  This next part is of course a generalization, but it's common to see developers not spending a great deal of time playing their own game through normal means.  As noted all generalizations will have clear and obvious exceptions, but I don't agree with the notion that a test/challenge like that is only appropriate if a developer is doing it.  I do agree with the part underlined for sure however.  Though if memory serves Glen puts a fair bit of time into accomplishing game tasks through normal means.  There are likely other devs who do just the same for sure and can pull off endgame stuff right alongside other players.

 

Back to the point though the devs aren't special in the regard of actually playing a game so long as dev tools aren't being used to grant them an unfair advantage.  They're no different than any other player, so issuing a challenge like that doesn't really hold any weight to it.  Basically I'd say that, forgoing the Forma part, that challenge would be more aptly applied to any player.  Saying "devs only" just sounds like a way to try and prove a point through the unlikelihood of a developer just showing up and throwing their personal time at doing just that.  Whereas issuing that challenge to all players will invite a load of people to step up to the plate.

 

The thing is, players attempting the challenge doesn't really accomplish much (regardless of the whether or not they succeed). At the end of the day it is the devs' perception of the game that really matters and if they don't truly understand the difficulty/amount of work/etc that goes into completing any given task, their judgement can be thrown off. If the developers responsible for gameplay balance have never played the game at the very edge of their balancing scheme (I think they said anything beyond level 80 isn't factored in) how do they really know how well top-tier weapons behave in their element?

[LazyKnight]

I don't agree with the underlined statement as I do feel the best way to get a developer to understand is to sit them down and have them play through the level ranges that a top-tier weapon is expected to be able to face given its stats. 

DE_Steve (or was it Scott? I forgot) comment in either the last Developer stream, or the one prior to that, the he was thinking of ammo 2.0, but he kind of shrugs it off as a someday thing or meh.

 

I know they know there is an ammo problem, and I am sure they know that the high ammo usage weapons fall-off rapidly. It is something where they make a weapon like Kohmak despite knowing that it's ammo is a real problem. Ammo pads are a band-aid, but it would be nice if DE made it so all these cool looking or conceptional interesting weapons were actually viable.

Edited March 30, 2015 by LazyKnight

[SquirmyBurrito]

DE_Steve (or was it Scott? I forgot) comment in either the last Developer stream, or the one prior to that, the he was thinking of ammo 2.0, but he kind of shrugs it off as a someday thing or meh.

 

I know they know there is an ammo problem, and I am sure they know that the high ammo usage weapons fall-off rapidly. It is something where they make a weapon like Kohmak despite knowing that it's ammo is a real problem. Ammo pads are a band-aid, but it would be nice if DE made it so all these cool looking or conceptional interesting weapons were actually viable.

 

I haven't watched a devstream in a long time (I work fridays) so I had no idea. Thanks for the info, I have my fingers crossed that ammo will get an overhaul sometime this year.

[cyrus106]

I noticed you started getting pretty low near the end, when enemy levels were finally starting to get close to 30. Which is pretty much exactly what the others were talking about. As enemy levels increase and TTK increases, the Synoid Gammacor's usability tanks. Either way, thanks for taking the time out of your day to create and upload these videos, I know from experience just how irritating it can be to have go through the trouble of creating a video for a thread just to have people pick at the flaws. Believe me, I know.

No problem, Just trying to aid the discussion. I can see that many players have valid points to make about the issue, so now I'm just lurking in the thread

[Benore]

i don't understand why he relies too much on his sidearm, unless ofcourse his primary and melee sucks balls.

 

Before it was nerfed, the Synoid was substantially better than every primary for close and medium range fights.

 

It needed to be nerfed.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Before it was nerfed, the Synoid was substantially better than every primary for close and medium range fights.

 

It needed to be nerfed.

 

That is and was true of far more secondaries than just the Synoid Gammacor.

[Deathman_Kenshi]

Before it was nerfed, the Synoid was substantially better than every primary for close and medium range fights.

 

It needed to be nerfed.

Or primaries should be primaries and get buffed a bit ? :)

[NocturneOfSolace]

Let me tell you why the post nerf Synoid Gammacor is still superior to the Boltor Prime, and why all claims of overnerfing absolutely cannot be justified.

 

Here's a max DPS Boltor Prime build: http://goo.gl/Wcacim

 

Burst DPS: 39799

Sustained DPS: 22613

 

Here's a Synoid Gammacor build with Primed Pistol Ammo Mutation to make up for the ammo efficiency: http://warframe-builder.com/Secondary_Weapons/Builder/Synoid_Gammacor/t_30_22234030_193-1-5-196-4-5-204-0-10-206-2-5-209-5-5-404-7-5-487-6-10-489-3-10_204-7-193-6-206-6-489-7-196-6-209-11-487-8-404-9/en/3-0-55/

 

Burst DPS: 43893

Sustained DPS: 29262

 

A post nerf Synoid Gammacor with Primed Pistol Ammo Mutation still has higher DPS than a maxed Boltor Prime, the best primary weapon in the game. Even if Ammo Mutation doesn't fix the Synoid's ammo problems, the Boltor Prime has ammo problems too, especially with Vile Acceleration. Every argument saying the Synoid was overnerfed is utterly invalid.

your BP build is garbage

[xlraistlx]

your BP build is garbage

[HandsomeSorcerer]

"Let me tell you why the post nerf Synoid Gammacor is still superior to the Boltor Prime, and why all claims of overnerfing absolutely cannot be justified

 

 

Here's a max DPS Boltor Prime build: http://goo.gl/Wcacim

 

Burst DPS: 39799

Sustained DPS: 22613

 

Here's a Synoid Gammacor build with Primed Pistol Ammo Mutation to make up for the ammo efficiency: http://warframe-buil...04-9/en/3-0-55/

 

Burst DPS: 43893

Sustained DPS: 29262

 

A post nerf Synoid Gammacor with Primed Pistol Ammo Mutation still has higher DPS than a maxed Boltor Prime, the best primary weapon in the game. Even if Ammo Mutation doesn't fix the Synoid's ammo problems, the Boltor Prime has ammo problems too, especially with Vile Acceleration. Every argument saying the Synoid was overnerfed is utterly invalid.

"

 

You know what, just play the game. I just played a mission with a primary as Boltor P, corrosive max damage.

And a sgammacor build. Needless to say, the sgammacor sucks.

 

Killing Alad V takes ages with the sgamamcor. Something in you theory does not add up. If I can kill off enemies fater with a BP, that means the Sgammacor is weaker.

 

ANd any argument that says otherwist, goes in conflict with my first hand experience. That means, your claim is for me, completely invalid.

 

And please, FFS, stop using DPS as an argument. Just put a @(*()&#036; firerrate mod, and get trillions of DPS, while you run out of ammo faster.

[NocturneOfSolace]

 

your BP build is garbage

 

Try and act smart all you want, but I know what I'm talking about, it's not all about burst DPS, vile acceleration results in vastly reduced control over your magazine clip and ammo reserves, when piercing caliber would have resulted in far better dps

 

Edited March 30, 2015 by NocturneOfSolace

[xlraistlx]

Try and act smart all you want, but I know what I'm talking about, it's not all about burst DPS, vile acceleration results in vastly reduced control over your magazine clip and ammo reserves, when piercing caliber would have resulted in far better dps

You didn't even got the why was the reply added.

[NocturneOfSolace]

You didn't even got the why was the reply added.

A facepalm is pretty self-evident mate

[Mesyra]

I would like to see it use just a touch less ammo.

 

5.5-6.0 more ammo consumption than the prenerf gammacor would be better.

[Heidrek]

Who would use the Synoid Gammacor over the vaykor marelok/rakta ballistica?

Edited March 31, 2015 by Heidrek