Shotguns: Remove Damage Falloff Over Distance.

[Sloan441]

There's this thing called terminal ballistics, and, yes, a tiny lead ball launched at relatively high speed at the muzzle slows down considerably at a rather short range.

 

Physics and all that.

 

The real advantage of shotguns is ammunition flexibility, which has nothing to do with this game. They are inferior to rifles in about every way. They only exist to land a few hits on fast moving targets more easily (bird hunting, basically) or to use exotic ammunition (bean bags, door breaching, etc.).

 

Slugs and the like are a slightly different matter, but again it comes down to ammunition flexibility. Your quail gun can be repurposed to becoming a piss poor rifle with just an ammunition change. Then there's paradox rounds, but it still comes down to just repurposing an existing weapon just because you can (matters of economy or legalistic foolishness).

[Lord_of_Time]

How about we make the damage falloff not pewter out at a specific range but instead be a gradual decline like after 10m per 0.1m travelled will result in a 1% damage reduction per shot? But give them a boost to damage the closer your target is, so if its within 10m per 1m closer to you the shots damage is amplified by 15%?

 

The damage falloff would be gradual so we wouldn't have a sudden damage drop which wouldn't make sense logically, but since shotguns are meant for close quarters combat(both irl and in game). I myself support the damage drop of somewhat because I don't want to see people using tightspread shotguns(ie. hek,charged dragkoon, brakk) as pseudo snipers, especially when both snipers and shotguns are in a kind of limbo concerning damage.

 

Just my 2 cents. In summary make shotguns not good at long range because thats not what they're intended for but if somebody does try to use it long range don't give them a sudden and unrealistic damage reduction, whilst boosting damage the closer you due to warframes magic momentum.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Lord_of_Time

[superbot34]

Sorry i do not agree with this. However, i would agree to having the damage penalty range extended, so you lose less damage over a longer distance. the current range of when shotguns start to lose damage is really pathetic, as if the shotguns are being powered by really weak compressed air and just plomp out of the gun. 

 

for weapons like the drakgoon, kohm, and kohmek, dropoff makes more sense as they are shooting shrapnel/clumps of cooled plasma that would have a large effect of gravity. 

[(PSN)LK-GriM]

Projectiles gradually lose speed/slow down due to wind resistance and gravity. Thank DE you don't have to aim 5ft above an enemies head just to hit them at 30-40m.

Edit: please don't bring up shrapnel firing or similar "shotguns".

Edited March 27, 2015 by (PS4)LK-GriM

[Rhiss]

Projectiles gradually lose speed/slow down due to wind resistance and gravity. Thank DE you don't have to aim 5ft above an enemies head just to hit them at 30-40m.

 

that would only be the case if you tossed pellets by hand lol in reality you would see no drop at 30m and spread would only be about 1m

[(PSN)LK-GriM]

that would only be the case if you tossed pellets by hand lol in reality you would see no drop at 30m and spread would only be about 1m

You really have no idea what you're talking about. I hunt all year long, I'll just leave it at that.

[IfritKajiTora]

shotguns have already less damage at distance becasue not all bullets hits the enemies, so deleting fall of coudl be a nice buff for shotguns. Because right now shotguns are weak

[Rhiss]

You really have no idea what you're talking about. I hunt all year long, I'll just leave it at that.

then you should know better than what you said

[(PSN)LK-GriM]

Edit: wasting my time debating with the uneducated.

Edited March 28, 2015 by (PS4)LK-GriM

[Sloan441]

Most of you have no clue what you're talking about.

 

Shotgun pellets have abysmal energy retention. Even 000 buckshot falls off considerably by 25 yds. It's totally ineffective at 100, both for lack of energy and dispersion of the relatively few pellets this loading has.

 

Most of you need to think more and post less.

[DrBorris]

Or... make them OP at close range, use damage falloff as their balancing.

[DireMoose]

Hi, I think all this talk of ballistics IRL is really, really cool, but this is a game with ninjas. In space. With almost magical powers. Don't justify with real world logic, focus on the balance of the actual game. I use the Hek on a regular basis and I'd adore the removal of damage falloff because believe me, the spread balances it. Sometimes it feels like rolling dice with the spread at some ranges, either you hit most or least, but right now it feels like "most" is about the same damage as "least". Remove damage falloff, it's too hard a restriction. I main a squishy frame and it's always high risk medium reward late game when I run in with the shotgun.

[Pacheon]

I would like to see a shotgun being able to work as they used to be.

As I remember the "Flak Cannon", my favorite weapon from Unreal Tournament - Drakgoon was familiar, but not as good as the Flak Cannon that I remember (and still use, while playing UT3 :P).

[BulletsforTeeth]

Only thing I can think of being problematic is the Phage, as it is counted as a shotgun last I checked...

[fatpig84]

Most of you have no clue what you're talking about.

 

Shotgun pellets have abysmal energy retention. Even 000 buckshot falls off considerably by 25 yds. It's totally ineffective at 100, both for lack of energy and dispersion of the relatively few pellets this loading has.

 

Most of you need to think more and post less.

 

It is a game with ninja space magic.

By logic the boltor bolts should drop off after a few dozen meters and fail to hurt anything after that.

 

Yes I have fired nailguns that are meant to punch through wood.

They won't fly that far either.

Edited March 29, 2015 by fatpig84

[Sloan441]

Main tank guns are predominately smoothbore now. They fire what are essentially nails as kinetic penetrators. They retain energy quite well. It's a matter of ballistics: a dart can be quite good ballistically.  

 

Shotguns are piss poor weapons at range. Simple as that. The devs have emphasized (and not by much) this feature to separate them from rifles. Some of the ingame shotguns suffer more from this than others, though I suspect that's more of a matter of pattern density. Nevertheless, shotgun pellets are ballistically inefficient and do suffer from rapid energy falloff.  

[Zerkev]

Support.

[inappropriatename5818]

 

Shotguns are &!$$ poor weapons at range. Simple as that. 

 

Yes they are, because of spread. They are no less deadly 20 meters away than they are point blank. A rifle bullet will lose velocity, just further on and if rifles don't have to obey physics, why do shotguns have to?   

Because they are so OP they need it? I don't think so. Only "shotguns" that are worth using are Phage and Kohm but even those aren't great, I'd rather take a rifle.

[Sloan441]

Actually, they are--less deadly, that is.  

 

I'm going to beat this drum until it sinks in.

 

Tiny little lead spheres are have lousy ballistic efficiency. They lose energy really quickly (and tiny steel spheres are worse). They can do a lot of damage at close range because there's a lot of them and they haven't lost too much energy. By 35 yds, even the heaviest shot (000) has very significant falloff and lighter shot becomes basically ineffectual. Combined with spread, you have a short ranged weapon.

 

Rifles typically use spitzer bullets and these are very ballistically efficient. At game ranges, there would be little practical different between point blank range and 100 yds. Even out to 300, most modern service rifle bullets are still packing enough energy to get the job done. Shot doesn't.

[DireMoose]

Actually, they are--less deadly, that is.  

 

I'm going to beat this drum until it sinks in.

 

Tiny little lead spheres are have lousy ballistic efficiency. They lose energy really quickly (and tiny steel spheres are worse). They can do a lot of damage at close range because there's a lot of them and they haven't lost too much energy. By 35 yds, even the heaviest shot (000) has very significant falloff and lighter shot becomes basically ineffectual. Combined with spread, you have a short ranged weapon.

 

Rifles typically use spitzer bullets and these are very ballistically efficient. At game ranges, there would be little practical different between point blank range and 100 yds. Even out to 300, most modern service rifle bullets are still packing enough energy to get the job done. Shot doesn't.

And I'M going to beat THIS drum until it sinks in. This is a game with Ninjas in space (sometimes literally) who wield weapons that pack the power of a ballistic missile sometimes. You cannot pull the "Reality Card" when this game gives that concept a hardy F U. Please focus on the balance of the game not the logic of it. I gave up the very moment I read Frost's bio.

[inappropriatename5818]

And I'M going to beat THIS drum until it sinks in. This is a game with Ninjas in space (sometimes literally) who wield weapons that pack the power of a ballistic missile sometimes. You cannot pull the "Reality Card" when this game gives that concept a hardy F U. Please focus on the balance of the game not the logic of it. I gave up the very moment I read Frost's bio.

 

Exactly. Maybe I shouldn't compare real life to a game where you summon tentacles from walls and open wormholes to travel so you can materialize daggers out of thin air to impale your enemies.   

 

But the fact of the matter is, shotguns s*ck, they need a buff and easiest thing to do would be removing falloff damage. Several reasons:   

 

-less numbers for the game to crunch   

-easier to do this than balance all shotguns individually  

-it's the main reason why shotguns are considered weak. most shotguns are very powerfull point blank, but this is warframe, going point blank is generally not a good idea, specially at the level where shotguns are considered weak.

[RafaelFuchs]

Exactly. Maybe I shouldn't compare real life to a game where you summon tentacles from walls and open wormholes to travel so you can materialize daggers out of thin air to impale your enemies.   

 

But the fact of the matter is, shotguns s*ck, they need a buff and easiest thing to do would be removing falloff damage. Several reasons:   

 

-less numbers for the game to crunch   

-easier to do this than balance all shotguns individually  

-it's the main reason why shotguns are considered weak. most shotguns are very powerfull point blank, but this is warframe, going point blank is generally not a good idea, specially at the level where shotguns are considered weak.

i'd agree. if devs were so worried about sweeping rooms, they should look at the boltor P or soma (soma P). i can sweep a room, as long as i have punchthrough, up to level 30-40 enemies. with the boar P i can sweep a room up to level 5-10 enemies. that's a drastic shift in power from a sweeping style shotgun to a LMG.

[superbot34]

Most of you have no clue what you're talking about.

 

Shotgun pellets have abysmal energy retention. Even 000 buckshot falls off considerably by 25 yds. It's totally ineffective at 100, both for lack of energy and dispersion of the relatively few pellets this loading has.

 

Most of you need to think more and post less.

or maybe you need to stop putting real world logic into a science fiction video game? shotgun pellets can go as far as they want, its a game. 

[Sloan441]

Hey, you all are the ones going on about shot retaining energy at ridiculous ranges and hitting multiple targets. That isn't how shotguns work. Period.

 

It's either a shotgun or it isn't. What you all are going on about isn't.

 

Call it a flechette gun that shoots DU hypervelocity airfoils and we'll talk.

 

Until then, it shoots little lead balls that can't retain energy past spitting distance and spreads like hell at same.

[Rhiss]

 

no gun in the world retains its full energy over distance, we are talking about the game