Many Warframes Don't Have Pvp Friendy Abilities

[Mastikator2]

Ash

Chroma

Limbo

Loki

Mesa

Mirage

Nekros

Nova

Nyx

Oberon

Saryn

Trinity

Vauban

I highlited Chroma because he's already in PVP and none of his abilities are any good there.

 

These are all warframes that have at least one ability that needs to be addressed, they're either completely useless or utterly overpowering for PVP. The long term goal is to encapsulate all of Warframe, so these frames need to have their abilities looked at.

 

I mean, take Ash.

Ash has

Shuriken, a high damage homing attack that takes no skill to kill anyone without knowing about them.

Blade Storm auto-kills everyone.

 

I don't need to go on, all of these frames have something that needs to be heavily altered to be allowed in PVP.

 

And I don't have the answers, it's just too much. So I call upon the community to suggest PVP specific changes that would make all of these warframes fun, balanced and interesting in PVP.

[Rakshal]

Some frames will need completely new powers for PvP IMO.

[Orbister]

Chroma doesn't have pvp abilities? what?...  vex armor.

[AdunSaveMe]

Chroma doesn't have pvp abilities? what?...  vex armor.

TTK is too low for vex armour to do its best.

[Mastikator2]

Chroma doesn't have pvp abilities? what?...  vex armor.

75 energy for a meh ability.

Or 25 for Slash Dash, Shock, Rhino Charge, Pull. Freeze

 

Yeah

[chofranc]

With spectral scream and a fire/toxin chroma it can active the status chance and the enemie can get killed overtime and its funny when your enemie kill you and then he get killed by the fire or the toxin status :).

Edited March 29, 2015 by chofranc

[Mastikator2]

With spectral scream and a fire/toxin chroma it can active the status chance and the enemie can get killed overtime.

Consider that it has lower DPS than basically any weapon AND weaker range than anything that isn't melee AND restricts your movement heavily. Only once has it given me a kill, and only a kill AFTER I already died.

 

That's bad. Like really really bad. Not just waste of energy bad. Suicidal bad.

[Nighttide77]

the augment for Chroma's first is also really powerful.  Put on a poison energy type and make sure to wait at least a second for a charge up and you insta-knockout a player with damage direct to health.

[Nighttide77]

I'm sure all the frames will get a revision.  2 of the 3 maps are small enough that if a Mesa with her 4th stood in the right place, they'd cover the whole map with the aimbot.  I'd imagine Mesa will get a massive damage reduction and range reduction to the 4th power...something like a range of 15m like the other frames with equivalent damage of Excal's 4th, or maybe half that.

[Nighttide77]

Oh, speaking of Chroma's Elemental Ward...what exactly does it do in PvP?  I've used it, but I can barely see any influence on enemies or allies.

[AgentSkye]

It's already been demonstrated that the basic mechanics of powers can, will, and have been changed to fit PvP 2.0. Some may need to be changed more than others, of course, and a few will probably remain useless, but that's mostly the ones that are already useless for combat in PvE. Heck, depending on the map and game mode, some of those may even have some use.

 

Some powers will have to have rather different effects on Tenno than on Corpus, Grineer, etc. But this has already been explored somewhat in PvP 1.0. Like Nyx's Mind Control and Chaos being rather like a hit from a Ye Olde Ancient Disrupter, for example, and certain powers that normally lift and immobilize instead applying a major slow effect.

 

PvP 1.0, though, generally only had changes like that when it was a choice between that or the ability doing nothing at all. The new PvP 2.0 design involves a greater willingness to modify the existing powers to fit. That's a very good thing.

 

Ash's Blade Storm is tricky, I'll admit, but there's quite a few ways of handling it so that it's no more overpowered than the average ult. And Shuriken almost certainly will NOT be overpowered. We don't have different types of physical damage in PvP 2.0, we just have damage. And we don't have bleed procs, or, in fact, any status effects at all. That means Shuriken is just... a shuriken. You throw it, it seeks, deals some damage. How much damage? We don't know. But we do know that it won't be any PvE number. It will be adjusted, balanced against other frames' powers. Freeze? It's an icicle. You throw it, it seeks, deals some damage. Sounds familiar. How about Pull? You do an animation and, if the target is within the cone (which is short range and actually quite narrow), it takes damage. Doesn't even have a dodgeable projectile. It just hits. Is that overpowered? Nope. It's been balanced. And, yes, Shuriken is quite dodgeable, I assure you.

 

I'm not saying everything is balanced perfectly right now, or that the powers will be balanced right when they're introduced. Some may be overpowered for a time, then underpowered, then overpowered until finally they find their proper place. But from what we've seen so far of PvP 2.0, they will find their proper place.

Edited March 29, 2015 by AgentSkye

[oinkah]

Actually, Ash wouldn't be too bad if his powers were balanced. Shuriken needs to do less damage, no bleed and have less homing capabilities. Bladestorm is no different than other ults, could use line of sight nerf. His invisibility is short and teleport needs to lose stagger.

 

Saryn might work as well. Molt would be useless against humans, but with augment it might have some worth.

Edited March 29, 2015 by oinkah

[rockscl]

chroma has the most useless kit in the current stat pf pvp imo, i play chroma just for fun, sometimes his ult actually kills people

[Hueminator]

While some of these frames are hard to balance for pvp, but future frame and weapons will be balance for pvp (at least that is what DE said)

 

 

And I don't have the answers, it's just too much. So I call upon the community to suggest PVP specific changes that would make all of these warframes fun, balanced and interesting in PVP.

Ember

 

#1 Decrease damage to be weaker than frost freeze, but causes burn (so total damage is more)

#2 Keep as it is (stun)

#3 Reduce damage and knockdown radius (otherwise you can knock everyone down the cliff)

#4 Reduce Range and Damage, so you pretty much only burn things ~10m-13m around you, giving people chance to run and kill.

 

Nerkos

 

#1 Tune down damage

#2 Turn fear to a stun (like mag) but with wider range and/or longer stun

#3 Err corpse explosion (like melee mod) + guarantee HP orb

#4 Like Effingy but you summon a Nekros specter instead

 

I don't see Banshee on the list

Edited March 30, 2015 by Hueminator

[.Talia.]

I hope they do a good job balancing broken stuff like Bladestorm, Peacemaker, Banish and Rift Walk, Turbulence, Link, Bastille and Tesla, and others... Or else it will be the Dark Sector Conflicts all over again.

Edited March 29, 2015 by RexSol

[AgentSkye]

While some of these frames are hard to balance for pvp, but future frame and weapons will be balance for pvp (at least that is what DE said)

Yes,  although to clarify, that probably doesn't mean that being designed for PvP will affect their PvE use much--just that the rebalancing them for PvP and modifying their powers for use in PvP will already have been taken into account during their design, and that they will be usable in PvP as soon as they are released.

 

Now... Limbo's interesting to think about. I wonder how they'll handle the whole Rift Plane thing. If PvE is any indication, many powers will reach across planes, so a Limbo won't be completely immune while Rift Walking. Also, can't be used to complete objectives, because someone in the rift plane cannot interact with objectives even in PvE. Any Cephalons will be dropped just like a datamass. Any consoles won't be hackable, etc. And it works both ways. A Limbo Rift Walking won't be able to use his weapons to damage his enemies. A Limbo using Rift Walk to make himself nearly invulnerable will also, as a side effect, make himself nearly useless. So it shouldn't be overpowered, but it's also not worthless. It allows him to escape to recover, but it's also not guaranteed because there are ways around it using powers. Additionally, it allows him to avoid being outnumbered in combat by Rift Walking, then Banishing a chosen enemy to fight one on one. And of course, Banishing an enemy will have to be made so that it doesn't knock Tenno down, do much damage to said Tenno, if any damage at all. The damage will have to be tweaked or removed. And then Rift Surge also doesn't seem like it needs major adjustment, to me. To make use of it, a Limbo would have to cast Rift Walk (15 energy), Banish (25), and then Rift Surge itself (50 energy) for a total of 3 casts and 90 energy. Without Rift Surge, and with a Banish that deals only a small amount of damage, or no damage at all, there's not much to give Limbo any reliable way of winning the 1v1 that he is able to force on enemies, especially given his rather unimpressive shields, and lack of other powers to use against them--while Limbo's enemy still retains their powers and is free to use them on him. Therefore, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being able to significantly increase the damage Limbo deals to his enemy by using Rift Surge, especially with the high energy cost and complexity of this tactic. The exact amount of the damage increase may need to be tweaked, of course.

I... I'm not sure what to say about Cataclysm, though. But the way I see it, not much needs to be done for Limbo. The only problem I see is that, in objective based game modes, he could use Banish alone as a Win button in a 1v1, putting the two players in separate planes but allowing Limbo to interact with objectives unmolested. But... this is all generally designed for team play anyway, so, while this could be a problem occasionally, it's not going to be a common one. 1v1s happen, but there's no way for the Limbo to intentionally end up in one, so it's not overly exploitable. And, again, many powers can reach across planes. Although... that would require energy. And as it is now, a Banished enemy wouldn't be able to pick up energy. And if it were made so that people in the Rift Plane could pick up energy, then that would make Rift Walk more exploitable, since Limbo would be able to Rift Walk and be nearly invulnerable while gathering energy. Hmmmmm.

 

Loki's Decoy, ideally, should have two appearances: One like the PvE decoy, to be shown to Loki's allies, and one exactly like the caster, to be shown to Loki's enemies. If that can't be managed easily, though, you could just have the one that's identical to the caster. Behaviorally, the Decoy need not be changed significantly if at all. It won't distract most players for very long, but it could be enhanced by making the Decoy capable of appearing to actually shoot enemy Tenno, rather than just making pew pew motions and sounds. By this, I mean shoot at them with 0-damage rounds that do nothing other than trigger the "You are taking damage from this direction" HUD prompt. Much like Hek's body doubles before his makeover! Although without the bleed procs...

Loki's Invisibility probably doesn't need to change a whole lot. Maybe some visual effect tweaking to find the right balance: Hard, but not impossible to see and track. And, obviously, no perfect invisibility via black energy. In Solar Rail Conflicts, this was achieved by forcing a red energy color to be displayed for Loki's enemies, but this isn't the only solution. Duration could also be tweaked.

The question for Loki's Switch Teleport is: stun or no stun? I think it needs a small stun to be worth it, since, otherwise, the target will be disorientated only ever so slightly more than the Loki himself, and only because the Loki would be expecting the switch and the enemy wouldn't. Not much of a difference, and so not much would be gained by its use. The duration of the stun just needs to be fine tuned so that it's enough to be useful, not enough to be OP.

As usual, the issue is the ult. Raaaadial Disarm. I seem to recall something about it ending up like Nyx's Chaos in PvP 1.0, where it would Disrupt enemies, removing their energy, confusing their HUD... don't remember if it took their shields away or not. But it could be kinda like that. Or it could actually jam guns (temporarily!), but that would be more effort as it would involve an entirely new effect rather than repurposing an existing one. Which doesn't necessarily mean, by itself, that it shouldn't happen--but if another solution can be thought of that is just as good, but less effort? Path of least resistance. Besides, do we really need more incentive to spam melee instead of shooting things?

 

Will examine more frames later.

[Hueminator]

Loki's Decoy, ideally, should have two appearances: One like the PvE decoy, to be shown to Loki's allies, and one exactly like the caster, to be shown to Loki's enemies. If that can't be managed easily, though, you could just have the one that's identical to the caster. Behaviorally, the Decoy need not be changed significantly if at all. It won't distract most players for very long, but it could be enhanced by making the Decoy capable of appearing to actually shoot enemy Tenno, rather than just making pew pew motions and sounds. By this, I mean shoot at them with 0-damage rounds that do nothing other than trigger the "You are taking damage from this direction" HUD prompt. Much like Hek's body doubles before his makeover! Although without the bleed procs...

 

Loki's Invisibility probably doesn't need to change a whole lot. Maybe some visual effect tweaking to find the right balance: Hard, but not impossible to see and track. And, obviously, no perfect invisibility via black energy. In Solar Rail Conflicts, this was achieved by forcing a red energy color to be displayed for Loki's enemies, but this isn't the only solution. Duration could also be tweaked.

The question for Loki's Switch Teleport is: stun or no stun? I think it needs a small stun to be worth it, since, otherwise, the target will be disorientated only ever so slightly more than the Loki himself, and only because the Loki would be expecting the switch and the enemy wouldn't. Not much of a difference, and so not much would be gained by its use. The duration of the stun just needs to be fine tuned so that it's enough to be useful, not enough to be OP.

As usual, the issue is the ult. Raaaadial Disarm. I seem to recall something about it ending up like Nyx's Chaos in PvP 1.0, where it would Disrupt enemies, removing their energy, confusing their HUD... don't remember if it took their shields away or not. But it could be kinda like that. Or it could actually jam guns (temporarily!), but that would be more effort as it would involve an entirely new effect rather than repurposing an existing one. Which doesn't necessarily mean, by itself, that it shouldn't happen--but if another solution can be thought of that is just as good, but less effort? Path of least resistance. Besides, do we really need more incentive to spam melee instead of shooting things?

 

Will examine more frames later.

Right now I think invisibility is not working as intended due to you still getting the flag on top of your head.  I heard this happen to Excal super jump.  A duration nerf to the skill is good imo.

 

Switch teleport def need a brief stun, it would serve as a best way to catch flag stealer imo.

 

With the addition of Grineer Drak master I think Radial Disarm actually take away your weapon is possible.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Hueminator

[zerogear5]

I agree most frames cannot get away with their abilities in pvp but chroma has one overwhelming advantage over every single frame in pvp he can status effect you with his first and really do any status effect. getting the jump on anyone with his first ability will horribly disable anyone if used right. I do agree his other abilities need a buff or small change but his first is amazing if used right even better if you team up with someone.

Edited March 30, 2015 by zerogear5

[oinkah]

Loki's Decoy, ideally, should have two appearances: One like the PvE decoy, to be shown to Loki's allies, and one exactly like the caster, to be shown to Loki's enemies. If that can't be managed easily, though, you could just have the one that's identical to the caster. Behaviorally, the Decoy need not be changed significantly if at all. It won't distract most players for very long, but it could be enhanced by making the Decoy capable of appearing to actually shoot enemy Tenno, rather than just making pew pew motions and sounds. By this, I mean shoot at them with 0-damage rounds that do nothing other than trigger the "You are taking damage from this direction" HUD prompt. Much like Hek's body doubles before his makeover! Although without the bleed procs...

Loki's Invisibility probably doesn't need to change a whole lot. Maybe some visual effect tweaking to find the right balance: Hard, but not impossible to see and track. And, obviously, no perfect invisibility via black energy. In Solar Rail Conflicts, this was achieved by forcing a red energy color to be displayed for Loki's enemies, but this isn't the only solution. Duration could also be tweaked.

The question for Loki's Switch Teleport is: stun or no stun? I think it needs a small stun to be worth it, since, otherwise, the target will be disorientated only ever so slightly more than the Loki himself, and only because the Loki would be expecting the switch and the enemy wouldn't. Not much of a difference, and so not much would be gained by its use. The duration of the stun just needs to be fine tuned so that it's enough to be useful, not enough to be OP.

 

The problem of Decoy is that any person who played game more than once will instantly recognize Loki standing still and will ignore it. That ruse will be useful for less than a second. Crafty Lokis might then start pretending to be decoys by standing with Lex out, but even then they are stationary target with low health, too risky. If decoys were allowed to move like specters they would still be noticed, because competent players move very differently from specters. Lastly, if decoys were allowed to deal damage, they would become mini sentries of Warframe and nobody likes those. There is just no way to make Decoy work.

Switch Teleport is the reason why Grineer Commanders are so aggravating. Stay away from PvP! Please!

 

 

With the addition of Grineer Drak master I think Radial Disarm actually take away your weapon is possible.

 

Dropping disarmed weapons is a nice twist, but if Rhino Stomp has taught us anything, it's that utility ults are vastly inferior to damage ones.

[AgentSkye]

The problem of Decoy is that any person who played game more than once will instantly recognize Loki standing still and will ignore it. That ruse will be useful for less than a second. Crafty Lokis might then start pretending to be decoys by standing with Lex out, but even then they are stationary target with low health, too risky. If decoys were allowed to move like specters they would still be noticed, because competent players move very differently from specters. Lastly, if decoys were allowed to deal damage, they would become mini sentries of Warframe and nobody likes those. There is just no way to make Decoy work.

 

You're actually the first person to mention the idea of Decoys dealing real damage, but it's not a bad idea. There's no reason that it would be as you say, because there's no reason why it has to be a choice between dealing no damage at all (as normal) or dealing so much damage that it becomes a real threat. There is a middle ground: Deal just enough damage to distract from the real threat. Seriously, it would be distracting. Doesn't have to do much damage at all. But what I was actually saying, and what I specifically suggested, was a Decoy that does not deal damage, but does trigger the HUD reacting as if you're taking damage from the Decoy. Exactly like what Hek's old body doubles did. They shot you, HUD told you that you were taking damage from it, but you actually took none. The only problem was that, though they did 0 damage, they still had status chance and could inflict a Bleed proc for, like, 1 damage per tick. Decoy wouldn't have that. But now I'm just repeating myself. Anyway, dealing a small (very small, tiny) amount of damage would be even better. If you're familiar with a Decoy, you can just ignore even the HUD telling you you're taking damage, because you know you're really not. ...although if the Decoy is not on screen, you may do a quick check to make sure it's the Decoy. And if you try to ignore it, this could result in you ignoring real damage from the same direction. And if you're not aware of the Decoy beforehand, it's just as distracting as real damage would be unless you take the time to check whether your health and shield numbers are actually lowering when the HUD tells you you took damage. And you're never going to do that unless you are expecting a Decoy, and even if you do do that, even that is a distraction. And also not a very good idea because it means that, if it turns out to be real damage, then... for the time it takes you to make the comparison between the two parts of your HUD, you are not avoiding said damage or retaliating. And if you do try to avoid damage or turn to retaliate, the Decoy has successfully manipulated you. And if the Decoy does deal damage--again, very small, tiny damage, not a real threat, but damage--then no matter how hard you try to ignore it, the Decoy is applying pressure. You will know that you are taking damage. Real damage that contributes ever so slightly to your death. But, yeah, you're right that they'd need to move like Specters. And you're also right that it won't distract most players for long. I actually said that too. But the point is, with these changes, it's certainly not going to be useless. Say you round a corner and you see two Lokis. One of them is a Decoy. Except, in this situation, you don't have the luxury of taking a full second or more to determine which one is a Decoy, which would often be necessary because not all players are competent players that will be moving differently from a Specter, and even the competent players will not always be in positions that are immediately (like, in a tiny fraction of a second) apparent as player-specific movements. And as you already said, clever tricksters could pretend to be Decoys themselves, which would be a lot easier and a whole lot less risky if the Decoys move like Specters, as you suggested. So as you round this corner, you see two Lokis, and you may well have absolutely no way of determining which one is the Decoy in less than half a second, so your chances of starting out by attacking the right Loki... somewhere around 50/50. And if you do take the half-second to two seconds required to make that judgment properly, you're quite simply doing it wrong. That is a very long time in combat. So, by combining your own ideas instead of leaving them entirely separate, Decoy is useful. Is it a great power? No, probably not. It's certainly not overpowered. But it is undeniably useful if used right, and if used wrong it is only use-impaired instead of useless. Let's not forget, Loki can also Switch Teleport with his Decoy.

 

Sorry for giant wall of text. Oh, speaking of Switch Teleport:

 

 

Switch Teleport is the reason why Grineer Commanders are so aggravating. Stay away from PvP! Please!

 

Did you know that the Grineer Commanders actually have a stun twice as long as Loki's? Therefore, a Loki in PvP without any adjustment to Switch Teleport would only be half as aggravating as a Grineer Commander. And I already said that the duration of the stun would have to be fine tuned so that it's useful without being OP. If it had no stun, it would be completely worthless in the vast majority of situations, and only very slightly not-worthless in certain, very specific, exceptional situations.

 

 

Additionally, I forgot to mention in my previous post that Cephalons need to be exempt from Invisibilty, so that an invisible Loki carrying a Cephalon is made obvious by the fact that the Cephalon he's carrying is decidely not invisible.

Edited March 30, 2015 by AgentSkye

[Ronyn]

...... frames have something that needs to be heavily altered to be allowed in PVP.

Obviously. That's the whole reason that DE started out with just a few frames and is taking their time adding more.

[rockscl]

The problem of Decoy is that any person who played game more than once will instantly recognize Loki standing still and will ignore it. 

 i would make decoy mimic the original in the Z and Y axis, but with reflected movement on X axis, like this the dude can effectively split the attention with a proper decoy, also the decoy should blink close to the original if it gets stuck too far from its caster

Edited March 30, 2015 by rockscl

[Aggh]

Consider that it has lower DPS than basically any weapon AND weaker range than anything that isn't melee AND restricts your movement heavily. Only once has it given me a kill, and only a kill AFTER I already died.

 

That's bad. Like really really bad. Not just waste of energy bad. Suicidal bad.

On the other hand, freeze damage spectral scream is kind of broken.

[Hueminator]

The problem of Decoy is that any person who played game more than once will instantly recognize Loki standing still and will ignore it. That ruse will be useful for less than a second. Crafty Lokis might then start pretending to be decoys by standing with Lex out, but even then they are stationary target with low health, too risky. If decoys were allowed to move like specters they would still be noticed, because competent players move very differently from specters. Lastly, if decoys were allowed to deal damage, they would become mini sentries of Warframe and nobody likes those. There is just no way to make Decoy work.

Switch Teleport is the reason why Grineer Commanders are so aggravating. Stay away from PvP! Please!

 

 

 

Dropping disarmed weapons is a nice twist, but if Rhino Stomp has taught us anything, it's that utility ults are vastly inferior to damage ones.

If we have bigger maps I would think that decoy are very useful.

 

What makes Switch Teleport Stun different from Excal Stun/Mag Pull etc? Switch teleport would pretty much do the same in a 1 v 1 situation.

 

Compare to damage skills, utilities seems inferior simply they pretty much have the same range.  Imo we should buff range of CC skills (like 1.5x range of damage one).  Beside who knows if damage skills get nerf later in the future.

 

Edited March 31, 2015 by Hueminator

[Cleesus]

Chromas first actually is pretty useable, not the best but I have gotten a good amount of kills with it. The 2&3 skills are useless tho. Not enough health/shields to get any real use out of them especially considering the energy cost