Enemy Damage, How It's Delivered, And Creating Counterplay

[NinthAria]

High level enemies do a lot of damage. So do players. Power creep is something Warframe has struggled with, and continues to struggle with, a great deal. On both ends, players and enemies; damage dealt and damage taken. I want to say that up front, because while power creep is not what I'm going to go into here, it is a factor in any discussion about enemy damage, and probably one worth keeping in mind as we consider some of this. Warframe is a game with a lot of moving parts to consider - enemy level, player level, loadout choice, mod selection, etc. - all of which combined can make balancing a tricky act.

 

What I do want to talk about is how enemies deal damage, what sorts of counterplay options exist (or don't exist), what healthy combinations of those two things look like, and some (in my opinion) glaring examples of enemies that need tweaking in either direction. First, though, the basic premise on which I'll be operating here:

 

Counterplay options should directly correlate to damage dealt.

 

This is a fundamental axiom of healthy game design. In a nutshell, what this means is that the more dangerous an attack is, the more room there should be to counter, avoid, negate, or otherwise minimize its effects. As an example, consider our (un)friend the Corpus Shockwave Moa and its namesake attack: it only triggers in close range, there's a clear wind-up, and the shockwave travels in a slow, clearly-defined path along the ground, allowing players time to employ a variety of counters (killing the moa, blocking, jumping over it, etc.). This is healthy damage delivery - a somewhat ironic term, I know, but bear with me here.

 

The hypothetical opposite would be an omniscient enemy with infinite range, pinpoint accuracy, high damage, and near-instant reaction time; an aimbot, in essence. There is no counterplay here: if you appear in its line of sight, you die instantly. Needless to say, such an enemy would be incredibly frustrating to face. I mention this only for the sake of posterity as a counter-example to the above; thankfully, neither the Corpus, Grineer, Infested, nor likely even the Sentients have produced such a creature.

 

That all said, there are some clear examples in-game of where the relationship between damage and counterplay options is off - usually in favor of the former, but not always - a few of which I would like to go into presently. As a reminder, the goal here is not necessarily to decrease enemy damage, but rather to reward players for their tactical decisions and positioning skills by making high-damage attacks avoidable somehow.

 

The Grineer Seeker

Anyone who's been to Ceres knows the immense power of the high-level Grineer Seeker, for whatever rounds they've loaded in their Kraken pistols cause damage that can be terrifying indeed. This rings doubly true for players with low- or mid-ranked health, armor, or shield mods, and for squishier frames with or without such mods. The Seeker's double-shot hitscan pistol, combined with their solid accuracy, decent rate of fire, and slightly higher-than-average armor makes them a deadly enemy if not found and neutralized quickly.

 

In this case, however, a ready solution is available in the form of a related enemy: the Latchers that they deploy. Latchers do significantly less damage than the Seeker's normal shots, have a long delay before their damage is applied, and can be shrugged off by rolling or dodging after they've latched on, often negating their damage entirely. Therefore, my suggestion is this: decrease the Seeker's per-shot damage, but drastically increase the Latcher's explosion damage. (Optionally, also increase the Latcher's explosion radius and/or timer speed and/or blast status chance; all increase its overall threat level, but in different ways.) This shifts more of the Seeker's power to an avenue that players can outplay, and as an added bonus gives the Seeker a clear aesthetic niche in the Grineer army as a unit that can flush Tenno out of cover with their Latchers.

 

The Grineer Ballista

While among the less glaring examples of unhealthy damage delivery, the Ballista warrants a mention for reasons similar to the Seeker: high-damage, high-accuracy hitscan weaponry with no clear tells or warnings. While some counterplay already exists to a degree after the recent changes to how accuracy is calculated (read: getting in a Ballista's face will make it hard for her to shoot you), the Ballista can be a frustrating enemy if the player is unaware there was one in the fight. To that end, my suggestion is simple: keep the Ballista's damage the same, but add a targeting laser in the vein of Ven'kra Tel. This gives the player some warning that they're being targeted and should get to cover (or, if they're feeling bold, trace the laser to its source and shoot first), without diminishing the Ballista's strengths as a sniper unit.

 

The Corpus Sniper Crewman

Everything I said about the Ballista, except applied to the Sniper Crewman. That said, a minor tweak to the suggested fix, in the name of preserving some aesthetic difference between the Sniper Crewman and his Grineer counterpart: rather than a targeting laser, make the charging sound of the Lanka clearly audible. If possible, allow only the targeted player to hear it; if that can't be done, just make it audible to everyone in the Sniper Crewman's room. This alerts the player to the fact that they're being targeted (potentially), but unlike the Ballista, doesn't give away the enemy's exact position - a fitting defense for a Corpus sniper, who lacks the heavy armor of a Grineer unit.

 

As an aside, there's perhaps an argument to be made for giving both sniper units a full reimagining to make them more like actual snipers and less like regular units who happen to have sniper rifles - giving them spawn points in high perches with more fixed positioning, for instance - but that's a little beyond the scope of this discussion, and no doubt a harder fix to implement. Something to consider for DE in the future though.

 

The Grineer Hellion

Victims of Hellion missile barrages know well their power. With high total damage, fast flight speed, homing capabilities, and a chance for blast status, Hellions are no joke when they take to the air. Now, it's worth noting that the Hellion already has very high mobility working in its favor, so a more simple solution (such as a straight nerf to its missile damage, or removing the missiles entirely) may not be unwarranted. That said, if we're keen on preserving the Hellion's identity as a mid-tier Grineer threat, what I would suggest is this: reduce the missile count of the first volley and remove the status chance, but increase the missile count and restore the status chance of subsequent volleys. The Hellion's main frustration comes from its ability to take to the air and deal significant damage (often compounded by the knockdown chance) before the player has adequate time to respond. By reducing the threat of the initial volley and increasing the threat of subsequent ones, the player is given a warning shot of sorts: either get to cover, shoot the Hellion down, or get ready for some serious hurt.

 

The Grineer Bombard/Napalm

I'm lumping these two big guys together because the problem I take issue with is shared between both: specifically, the explosions from their projectiles disregard line of sight/effect. This creates something of a trap for players not in the know; logically speaking, the thing you'd want to do against a heavy is take cover - and, indeed, this holds up well in almost the entire rest of the game. But most cover isn't thick enough to distance the player completely from a Bombard/Napalm blast AoE, even if the projectile hits the opposite side. My suggestion here is simple: make the projectile explosions require line of effect to the player. The damage itself is fine, as are the theoretical counterplay options; players just need to be adequately rewarded (and shielded) for taking the logical approach.

 

The Corpus Shockwave Moa

This is a rare instance where an enemy with healthy damage delivery is actually not threatening enough. As an enemy that dies easily, on top of being required to first run into close range and perform a long wind-up to produce a fairly slow-moving attack, the Shockwave Moa could stand to be made more menacing. As mentioned previously, the shockwave attack already strikes a good balance between threat and counterplay options; what it needs more than anything is a chance to deliver it. To that end, I suggest this: increase the Shockwave Moa's health and shields dramatically. Not dying in a single shot would give the Shockwave Moa a chance to potentially get in and deliver a shockwave before being dismantled and, as another aesthetic bonus, cements its role as a damage-soaking Corpus front-liner that focuses more on crowd control, leaving the raw damage to the Fusion and Railgun Moas instead.

 

 

There's perhaps more examples to be cited on this topic, but I'm having trouble coming up with any, and this post is growing verbose enough as it is, so I'll just call it here. Curious to hear others' thoughts on the matter.

Edited April 3, 2015 by NinthAria

[WhisperByte]

Good post.

What do you think would be a non-rng counterplay to Grineer Commander switch teleport?

 

Also Hellion rockets ignore cover just like Bombard/Napalm attacks. It's just that their blast radius is slightly smaller so sometimes cover does help

Edited April 3, 2015 by WhisperByte

[Sasquatchias]

Good post.

What do you think would be a non-rng counterplay to Grineer Commander switch teleport?

 

I'd suggest the following things for that - 

 

1. Grineer Commander must have direct LoS on a player to use their ability.

 

2. Have a 2-3 second "charge time" on the ability along with a visual indicator to give players some warning.

 

3. Have the stun only happen when doing "special" movements, such as sliding, coptering, jumping, wallruns, etc...(Walking, Crouching, Aiming, Melee'ing will not cause the stun.)

[Fifield]

Wonderful post.  I think DE have mostly got this right but you've identified some shortcomings and clarified this issue brilliantly.

[NinthAria]

Truthfully, I hadn't thought about the Grineer Commander at all. They're rare enough that I tend to forget they even exist. In any case, if I'm being honest, I'd rather see the Commander's Switch Teleport removed outright (or moved to a new unit) and replaced with something more thematically appropriate; teleportation seems like a weird power for a Grineer unit to have (particularly one that doesn't seem to have access to Orokin technologies like Vor does), and given the Commander's relatively low firepower, teleporting himself away from his allies and into the enemy lines seems like a tactical decision ill suited to anyone with the title of "commander." Some sort of group defensive buff would be more appropriate, I think, though I confess I'm dry on specific ideas that don't tread on the toes of other existing units.

 

That said, if we're intent on preserving the Switch Teleport (which would be much easier in the short term), there's a few things I'd do. In this case, I think it's prudent to focus more on reacting to the teleport, not strictly avoiding it. Since Switch Teleport doesn't do any damage on its own and comes at an opportunity cost to the Commander (by putting him at range and thus reducing his accuracy), I think it's safe to give him the benefit of making it unavoidable, assuming he gets the cast off.

 

Firstly, remove or reduce the aftercast stun. From a gameplay standpoint, Switch Teleport can already be extremely threatening just by virtue of forcing the player into an unfavorable position, and from an aesthetic standpoint, it feels really off that highly trained Tenno warriors would stop and look around in confusion for a few seconds before getting back to more urgent things, like not getting shot at. (Also the animation does really weird things with certain frames as they stretch to fit the animation skeleton, but that's neither here nor there.) Bear in mind that the player him-/herself is already experiencing that confusion; let them be the ones to flail about for a few seconds and get their bearings. Forcing it on the character as well just leads to player frustration, as they're stuck getting shot while they wait for the animation to finish.

 

Secondly, give the Commander a weapon appropriate to his strategy and title. This is more of an aesthetic change than anything, so consider it mostly optional. If this is a high-ranking guy who's willing to trade positions with an enemy and throw himself into their lines, he should be equipped with more than just a basic Grakata. Something like a Kohm(ak) would be more thematically appropriate if we're sticking with firearms. Or, if we wanted to take a step further and make him a full-on, all-in melee heavy, a Jat Kittag, Atterax, or Ripkas could be good choices as well. Either case would also lend a bit more counterplay to his actual damage, particularly for the Switch Teleport target, as he would have to be close to the player to be a threat.

 

Also optionally, as has been mentioned already, give the player a visual cue 1-2 seconds before the effect triggers. I confess I'm fond of Switch Teleport being a surprise twist that the Commander can spring on a player, so if there is some kind of advance cue for it, it shouldn't be too long. It also, I think, should serve purely as an advance warning, and nothing more; as mentioned previously with as rare as Grineer Commanders are, I'm inclined to say the Switch Teleport cast should be guaranteed once he gets a bead on the player, with the above caveats to allow for more freedom of reaction, so as to allow the Commander a chance to shake things up.

Edited April 3, 2015 by NinthAria

[NinthAria]

It occurs to me now that I've slept that I forgot to give the Nullifier Crewman a brief mention. I don't think any significant change is warranted here, since unlike the Sniper Crewman the Nullifier is easy to spot, but for the sake of consistency he should probably be given the same treatment as the Sniper Crewman, since they use the same weapon and do similarly high damage.

[zoboso]

Agree with what is in OP.

 

Grineer Commanders should disable powers instead of stun, because the stun was implemented due to players nuking after being warped. we lose our powers either way so no change there just more counterplay by moving and shooting

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I'm going to offer some enemies I'd suggest fixing myself, besides the ones you've mentioned in the OP:

 

Corrupted Bombards: Someone decided that the normal Bombard rockets weren't challenging enough to avoid, despite the large blast radius, so they created the Corrupted Bombard. The problem is the Bombard's rockets have an unbelievable homing ability. Combined with tiny size and a huge blast radius, it often feels like game over if you walk into a room of them. The fix would be to make the homing ability more like the normal Bombard's. Also, they pose increased threat to melee players because they fire rockets without any fear of death, so for this reason they should have a forward strike that takes a second, but knocks players down in the vicinity (like a Rhino Charge). This will allow them to defend at close range without the need for the unavoidable (for melee/shotgun/close range players) blasts coming from an inch away.

 

Toxic Eximus: They can (and I've seen them do it multiple times) wipe an entire squad just by spawning too close to everyone. There's no avoidance for their attacks besides running, which is highly counter-intuitive to Defense, Mobile Defense, Interception, and other objective game modes. In addition, those attacks do tons of direct to health damage. This unit should simply not exist. If for some reason it must stay, it should leave a trail of poison in its wake whenever it moves, instead of the death aura it currently offers.

 

Toxic Crawler: If you've only used guns, you probably won't notice these. But they are awful for melee only play, as they leave a poison cloud on death, something melee players can't avoid. In addition, they're small and easy not to notice, especially considering that they look exactly the same as any other crawler besides the color. These shouldn't be crawlers--they should be larger, more easily noticeable, more visibly unique Infested.

 

Butcher: The only thing that allows Butchers to hit people is bad spawning mechanics. Butchers should be loud, distinctly sounding melee enemies (to alleviate those stealth spawn killers) that have something else in their benefit: either greatly increased speed, higher health, or a lunge attack that allows them to close on targets. As it is right now, their only purpose is to die.

[shut]

I love everything about this.

One thing, though:

 

 

The Corpus Sniper Crewman

Everything I said about the Ballista, except applied to the Sniper Crewman. That said, a minor tweak to the suggested fix, in the name of preserving some aesthetic difference between the Sniper Crewman and his Grineer counterpart: rather than a targeting laser, make the charging sound of the Lanka clearly audible.

 

It occurs to me now that I've slept that I forgot to give the Nullifier Crewman a brief mention. I don't think any significant change is warranted here, since unlike the Sniper Crewman the Nullifier is easy to spot, but for the sake of consistency he should probably be given the same treatment as the Sniper Crewman, since they use the same weapon and do similarly high damage.

 

 

I think it would be really cool for Nullifiers to get a no-splash variant of the Opticor. So when they're charging up a shot, players can easily see where they're aiming and take appropriate action (or, once they get used to the timing of the attack, use timed dodges for risky but more rewarding counterattacks).

Damage stays the same, of course.

[NinthAria]

I'm going to offer some enemies I'd suggest fixing myself, besides the ones you've mentioned in the OP:

 

Corrupted Bombards: Someone decided that the normal Bombard rockets weren't challenging enough to avoid, despite the large blast radius, so they created the Corrupted Bombard. The problem is the Bombard's rockets have an unbelievable homing ability. Combined with tiny size and a huge blast radius, it often feels like game over if you walk into a room of them. The fix would be to make the homing ability more like the normal Bombard's. Also, they pose increased threat to melee players because they fire rockets without any fear of death, so for this reason they should have a forward strike that takes a second, but knocks players down in the vicinity (like a Rhino Charge). This will allow them to defend at close range without the need for the unavoidable (for melee/shotgun/close range players) blasts coming from an inch away.

 

Toxic Eximus: They can (and I've seen them do it multiple times) wipe an entire squad just by spawning too close to everyone. There's no avoidance for their attacks besides running, which is highly counter-intuitive to Defense, Mobile Defense, Interception, and other objective game modes. In addition, those attacks do tons of direct to health damage. This unit should simply not exist. If for some reason it must stay, it should leave a trail of poison in its wake whenever it moves, instead of the death aura it currently offers.

 

Toxic Crawler: If you've only used guns, you probably won't notice these. But they are awful for melee only play, as they leave a poison cloud on death, something melee players can't avoid. In addition, they're small and easy not to notice, especially considering that they look exactly the same as any other crawler besides the color. These shouldn't be crawlers--they should be larger, more easily noticeable, more visibly unique Infested.

 

Butcher: The only thing that allows Butchers to hit people is bad spawning mechanics. Butchers should be loud, distinctly sounding melee enemies (to alleviate those stealth spawn killers) that have something else in their benefit: either greatly increased speed, higher health, or a lunge attack that allows them to close on targets. As it is right now, their only purpose is to die.

 

I didn't mention this because I figured it'd be obvious, but everything I said about the Bombard is worth applying to the Corrupted Bombard as well. That said, the Corrupted Bombard likely does merit some further tweaking, as A) it appears in the Void, where there's significantly less cover compared to Grineer tilesets, and B) unlike its regular counterpart, the Corrupted Bombard only spawns at high levels (T3 and T4 missions), meaning its damage can be tuned with the assumption that players are bringing equipment appropriate to the challenge.

 

I had thought about mentioning the radial blast employed by Grineer heavies of all types, as it's long been a source of annoyance for me, but I felt there were more pressing issues to be discussed. A short delay before the radial blast lands would be nice, as it's definitely a dangerous ability, but it is extremely predictable (they drop what they're doing and cast it if you come near), and thus can be baited or simply blocked outright by clever melee players. I could take or leave it, personally.

 

Re: Toxic Ancients: not sure if you were referring to the ancient or the eximus (or both), so I'll address both. I don't think either unit needs to be removed entirely, but I can see some places where changes ought to be made. The Toxic Ancient's AoE poison exhalation definitely needs a longer, more clear wind-up to justify the damage it deals. Given that melee is often one of the more effective methods of dealing with Infested, the speed and sheer power of their PBAoE attack makes it kind of a trap, often killing players who close into melee before they even realize what's happening. Having a clear indicator that they need to dodge out of melee, and affording them some time to actually do so, would go a long way here.

 

The eximus poison aura I think is less of a concern, but I'll agree that a change of some kind is in order; perhaps in place of the DoT aura, instead allow them to spawn clouds that inflict viral status a la Gas Infested Hives. This preserves much of their threat, since viral status is among the most dangerous effects in the game when used on players, and also meshes better with the Infested battle aesthetic of spraying toxic hazards all over the place.

 

Toxic Crawlers I think are mostly fine. That said, you're right in that melee players have trouble avoiding taking at least some damage from their toxic cloud on death - which, since it bypasses shields, can add up over the course of a mission. That in mind, I'd suggest one of two changes: either A) add a short delay between the crawler's death and the cloud spawning, allowing astute players an opportunity to reposition, or B) allow melee kills to cancel the toxic cloud entirely, similar to how Volatile Runners won't explode when killed by melee attacks.

 

Butchers I think are also okay for the most part, as their high damage is balanced out by their fragility and melee range requirement. That said, I do think they (and maybe Powerfists too) should have different voice-overs and audio than regular Grineer troops; currently they sound identical to Lancers, Troopers, etc., but tactically speaking they're much more important to know about, since a sneak attack from a Butcher (or Powerfist) can be extremely deadly. I'd still rank them fairly low on the list, however.

 

I think it would be really cool for Nullifiers to get a no-splash variant of the Opticor. So when they're charging up a shot, players can easily see where they're aiming and take appropriate action (or, once they get used to the timing of the attack, use timed dodges for risky but more rewarding counterattacks).

Damage stays the same, of course.

 

Functionally speaking I don't think this would matter much, but from an aesthetic standpoint I think it would be a good change. The Nullifier is more of a front-line Corpus unit that's always out in the open, so a heavy weapon like the Opticor makes more sense than a Lanka. Truthfully I think the Corpus could use more heavies anyway, so I approve.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I didn't mention this because I figured it'd be obvious, but everything I said about the Bombard is worth applying to the Corrupted Bombard as well. That said, the Corrupted Bombard likely does merit some further tweaking, as A) it appears in the Void, where there's significantly less cover compared to Grineer tilesets, and B) unlike its regular counterpart, the Corrupted Bombard only spawns at high levels (T3 and T4 missions), meaning its damage can be tuned with the assumption that players are bringing equipment appropriate to the challenge.

 

I had thought about mentioning the radial blast employed by Grineer heavies of all types, as it's long been a source of annoyance for me, but I felt there were more pressing issues to be discussed. A short delay before the radial blast lands would be nice, as it's definitely a dangerous ability, but it is extremely predictable (they drop what they're doing and cast it if you come near), and thus can be baited or simply blocked outright by clever melee players. I could take or leave it, personally.

 

Re: Toxic Ancients: not sure if you were referring to the ancient or the eximus (or both), so I'll address both. I don't think either unit needs to be removed entirely, but I can see some places where changes ought to be made. The Toxic Ancient's AoE poison exhalation definitely needs a longer, more clear wind-up to justify the damage it deals. Given that melee is often one of the more effective methods of dealing with Infested, the speed and sheer power of their PBAoE attack makes it kind of a trap, often killing players who close into melee before they even realize what's happening. Having a clear indicator that they need to dodge out of melee, and affording them some time to actually do so, would go a long way here.

 

The eximus poison aura I think is less of a concern, but I'll agree that a change of some kind is in order; perhaps in place of the DoT aura, instead allow them to spawn clouds that inflict viral status a la Gas Infested Hives. This preserves much of their threat, since viral status is among the most dangerous effects in the game when used on players, and also meshes better with the Infested battle aesthetic of spraying toxic hazards all over the place.

 

Some clarification:

 

Corrupted Bombard: I operated under the assumption that everything I mentioned went in addition to everything you did. This doesn't change the fact that the Corrupted rockets are much harder to avoid than the normal ones, capable of doing complete 180s and following players through abilities like Ripline that should be able to shake them. By mentioning the blasts, I meant the rockets firing straight into the ground if you get too close (which is unavoidable with melee). My only issues with the heavy knockdowns are that you can't jump to avoid them, and that they take priority over ragdolls and CC.

 

Toxic Eximus: I didn't mean the Ancient. I think the Eximi only go unnoticed because they're rare, but rarity doesn't excuse their attack which can kill most frames with anything under max Vitality at level 40 unless they constantly roll (and can kill some frames despite one or either of these things happening). The aura ignores cover, LoS, is instant, exists over the entire life of the eximi, and seems to have a status chance/second of about 30% or so, all of these penalties only because the player came within 40 meters of the wrong spot at the wrong time. One of these spawning more than a tile away can quickly kill anyone who's too far to run and yet too close to fight, and that's at normal levels. Past level 60 or so, it's game over no matter what you do.