Stealth And Ai System Broken Beyond Belief

[Lord_Xenon]

Can we also bring up ospreys breaking stealth? If an osprey sees the player or 'hears' the player, it will alert all spawned corpus units, even if the osprey itself does not target the player or is near other units. Now with the new spawning mechanics allowing ospreys stuck in world, its actually impossile to do stealth as all corpus units will be permanently aware of players as long as stuck osprey is alive, which cannot be reached since it is outside the world border.

 

Lastly something I've been wondering ever since closed beta and probably asked about back then: Why don't security cameras trigger lockdowns and ship alarms but windows do?

 

What the rollers are for Grineer, are the Ospreys for Corpus... oh wait! They have Moas too! Without a OS melee hit attack(spin/slam/normal hit) they are next to impossible to stealthkill. -.-

 

Why Window make a lockdown? Because they break! And if they break, they enable a vacuum which isn't useful for all - so an emergency lockdown(to prevent losing air) is triggered. Same mechanic as having no oxigen in survival. And it would be even worse if those cameras would trigger the alarm as they are hard to kill without making noise.

 

I recorded the sentinel bug shot on stealthkills. Anyone know to upload a video? Because in Gifs, there are no sound - which is one thing to register the bugged sentinel shot on stealthkills.

 

Here are some pictures to describe it:

 

Normal Stealthkill:

 

 

Sentinel shot on Stealthkill:

 

 

You see the sparks of the impact of my sentinel's shotgun?

 

And to see it was really a Stealthkill:

 

 

High damage + Stealthkillmodifier.

[MokutoBunshi]

What the rollers are for Grineer, are the Ospreys for Corpus... oh wait! They have Moas too! Without a OS melee hit attack(spin/slam/normal hit) they are next to impossible to stealthkill. -.-

 

Why Window make a lockdown? Because they break! And if they break, they enable a vacuum which isn't useful for all - so an emergency lockdown(to prevent losing air) is triggered. Same mechanic as having no oxigen in survival. And it would be even worse if those cameras would trigger the alarm as they are hard to kill without making noise.

 

I recorded the sentinel bug shot on stealthkills. Anyone know to upload a video? Because in Gifs, there are no sound - which is one thing to register the bugged sentinel shot on stealthkills.

 

Here are some pictures to describe it:

 

Normal Stealthkill:

 

 

Sentinel shot on Stealthkill:

 

 

You see the sparks of the impact of my sentinel's shotgun?

 

And to see it was really a Stealthkill:

 

 

High damage + Stealthkillmodifier.

If you just use YouTube (if you have a youtube account or a google account) You can upload the video there. Once you do, copy the address of the video you uploaded when playing it from the address bar and paste it here and it will play for everyone else. Its just that simple.

 

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[Handstamp]

Why Window make a lockdown? Because they break! And if they break, they enable a vacuum which isn't useful for all - so an emergency lockdown(to prevent losing air) is triggered. Same mechanic as having no oxigen in survival. And it would be even worse if those cameras would trigger the alarm as they are hard to kill without making noise.

 

Well the point of the cameras iis to avoid their sight. I would understand if it was the old notracer camera, but now you can see its line of sight and cameras themselves move extremely slow, they should trigger ships alarms when they can see you for say, a consecutive duration of at least half a second.

 

If you are running stealth and windows are broken, the doors shouldn't lock down. Logically this doesn't make sense as the ship then leaks until the windows are manually activated, and it locks all ai into their own rooms with no ability to disable it. Gameplay wise this is completely broken as it doesn't pose much of a hazard to the player themself because how hard it is to break a window and how little damage pure space exposure does, and how enemies can be 'slow broiled'. For example, the player can draw a bunch of enemies, even a kill marker into a window room and break the windows from outside the room slowly killing everything inside with no chance of retaliation. You would imagine that ai would be able to disengage their own locks to pursue the player.

 

This can be fixed either by allowing ai to unlock their own doors when necessary or creating a window cover timer, where the doors lock down until the window cover automatically descends, then the doors release. It never was much of a hazard and its pain/disastrous for stealth runs during mission changes/opposing faction incursions {couhgbombardscough}

[Lord_Xenon]

Well the point of the cameras iis to avoid their sight. I would understand if it was the old notracer camera, but now you can see its line of sight and cameras themselves move extremely slow, they should trigger ships alarms when they can see you for say, a consecutive duration of at least half a second.

 

If you are running stealth and windows are broken, the doors shouldn't lock down. Logically this doesn't make sense as the ship then leaks until the windows are manually activated, and it locks all ai into their own rooms with no ability to disable it. Gameplay wise this is completely broken as it doesn't pose much of a hazard to the player themself because how hard it is to break a window and how little damage pure space exposure does, and how enemies can be 'slow broiled'. For example, the player can draw a bunch of enemies, even a kill marker into a window room and break the windows from outside the room slowly killing everything inside with no chance of retaliation. You would imagine that ai would be able to disengage their own locks to pursue the player.

 

This can be fixed either by allowing ai to unlock their own doors when necessary or creating a window cover timer, where the doors lock down until the window cover automatically descends, then the doors release. It never was much of a hazard and its pain/disastrous for stealth runs during mission changes/opposing faction incursions {couhgbombardscough}

 

I think the LoS of the cameras are broken. And no hurting Stealth even more is not useful at all. I don't know if turrets' shots cause noise, but this is one of the 'don't be seen'. Another thing: Why Sensor bars in Grineer tilesets don't trigger alarms? They are a pass-through triggering.

 

To the lockdown: Then you must be something very weak if you think to lock down enemies in the vacuum room. It's annoying for normal players, as out of a big room triggered, lock ALL doors. So you can't move until you hack a console. And the alarm is triggered too - very useful for stealth! And waiting 2h for lvl 20 mobs to die from it... not worth or?

 

 

 

Recorded two things: ~15m if you move to one enemy to see you and ~13m(maybe it's a reaction time thing for this mismatch) if an enemy move to you while you are standing.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Lord_Xenon

[Mama_Sasha]

Check out this ''majestic'' programming that i discovered, and apparently, DE either lied about fixing this, or they underestimated this problem. Enemies will respawn in your line of sight. This Gif does not lie.

 

Edited August 29, 2015 by Cebius

[VoidWraith]

Right now stealth is very mediocre. How sound works with stealth is also a bit weird as well.

When you do a stealth finisher and kill your target, the target dies yelling sometimes, but doesn't seem to alert other enemies, which is a good thing, but also, so out of place.

[MokutoBunshi]

Check out this ''majestic'' programming that i discovered, and apparently, DE either lied about fixing this, or they underestimated this problem. Enemies will respawn in your line of sight. This Gif does not lie.

 

 

Maybe this problem has something to do with the program not identifying what you see down your sights as whats in your sight.

 

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[SoanoS]

Maybe this problem has something to do with the program not identifying what you see down your sights as whats in your sight.

 

]\'[

 

Might explain the enemies spawning in plain sight. They can just pop out of thin air right in front of you. Because the code no longer can figure out what you are looking at. Enemies should spawn behind crates and out of sight in general, not 2 meters in front of you. :p

[Handstamp]

Here's a screenshot of AI who are technically not alert, yet are hiding behind cover because they heard my sobek in thee neighboring room. I've waited about 10 minutes before I killed the first one {you can see the affinity mult timer}, and they never broke cover.

 

http://i.imgur.com/fpSsNlq.png

[Mama_Sasha]

Here's a screenshot of AI who are technically not alert, yet are hiding behind cover because they heard my sobek in thee neighboring room. I've waited about 10 minutes before I killed the first one {you can see the affinity mult timer}, and they never broke cover.

 

http://i.imgur.com/fpSsNlq.png

Oh i seen these from time to time. I went on and added this information to the front page. Thanks for the screenshot too!

[MokutoBunshi]

I have over 5500pictures of waframe on my pc (don't start taking them, it'll become a habit).

Lemme see if I can find any other weirdnesses (it is too a word).

 

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[MokutoBunshi]

I mean 500 pictures @_@.

 

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[MokutoBunshi]

I know this is slightly off topic but here is a pic tat I was looking for and never had a place to post.

 

 

That is a grinner warden eximus... and no matter how many times you come here, she always starts, still, in that room.

 

 

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Edited August 30, 2015 by MokutoBunshi

[Macframe]

Maybe this problem has something to do with the program not identifying what you see down your sights as whats in your sight.

 

]\'[

 

 

Might explain the enemies spawning in plain sight. They can just pop out of thin air right in front of you. Because the code no longer can figure out what you are looking at. Enemies should spawn behind crates and out of sight in general, not 2 meters in front of you. :p

 

Either the LoS spawning fix is completely broken or the code is not taking "far" distance into consideration.

 

To DE, to make it believable, enemies should only come from tiles/rooms no players are in. If a player already cleared a tile/room, all new enemy reinforcements should always come from other areas that can be hidden from LoS. If you want to make them spawning in the open that's susceptible to LoS, do some efforts than the cheap instant respawning. See Borderlands, they shoot pods in outdoor area to insert mobs in, actually Warframe already has similar idea in invasion and space tiles, so you already have usable art assets, use them, and teleport device to insert mobs in... I mean anything to make it more believable and interesting than now. For Grineer, it makes more sense that they shoot pods or dropshipping in outdoor tiles, and use some kind of one-way elevator or door in indoor tiles, teleport or materialize with visual fx is more suitable for Corpus.

[motorfirebox]

Either the LoS spawning fix is completely broken or the code is not taking "far" distance into consideration.

 

To DE, to make it believable, enemies should only come from tiles/rooms no players are in. If a player already cleared a tile/room, all new enemy reinforcements should always come from other areas that can be hidden from LoS. If you want to make them spawning in the open that's susceptible to LoS, do some efforts than the cheap instant respawning. See Borderlands, they shoot pods in outdoor area to insert mobs in, actually Warframe already has similar idea in invasion and space tiles, so you already have usable art assets, use them, and teleport device to insert mobs in... I mean anything to make it more believable and interesting than now. For Grineer, it makes more sense that they shoot pods or dropshipping in outdoor tiles, and use some kind of one-way elevator or door in indoor tiles, teleport or materialize with visual fx is more suitable for Corpus.

They really ought to have spawn areas with doors that only unlock when a new spawn is ready to enter the play area. If a player runs in there while the door is open, that's fine—the door stays unlocked and that spawn room stops spawning. You just have to make sure there are more than 4 spawn areas available on any map (preferably 10+), that way the players can't shut all of them down.

 

And beyond that, honestly, we just need enemies who do more than sit around and wait for Tenno to show up.

[MokutoBunshi]

They really ought to have spawn areas with doors that only unlock when a new spawn is ready to enter the play area. If a player runs in there while the door is open, that's fine—the door stays unlocked and that spawn room stops spawning. You just have to make sure there are more than 4 spawn areas available on any map (preferably 10+), that way the players can't shut all of them down.

 

And beyond that, honestly, we just need enemies who do more than sit around and wait for Tenno to show up.

From what I can tell from my experience with the earth tile set on defense. If you don't want an enemy to spawn somewhere all you have to do is look directly at that door and if nothing else the spawn will be stalled. So maybe it doesn't take true distance into account? Because if they still came from the high up rooms while I was looking, that would still be believable. The doors are closed!

 

Also, there are at least 4 entrances (4 openings plus 2 zip line ones) for 6 entry points roughly, so with only 4 players to stop the spawns by entering the rooms. 10 spawn areas seems accurate.

 

 

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[Lord_Xenon]

Okay the mission I have done was very extrem. Run Capture Syndicat - left noone alive and non was it for minutes, but as soon as I extract the capture target, two full groups of enemies spawn direct to me ~15m or 20m only away in LoS! Not that this matter for my mission, but this was just... Then at the end - I cleared a room in a dead end another enemy pop up on my minimap - OS him got stealthbonus - minimap show again a red dot next to me - only 3m! away behind me not being alerted(he doesn't come out of the dead end room because yeah cleared) and walking like he was on patrol. Very strange.

[Lord_Xenon]

While maybe not important at all, but it seem that Capturetargets next to always know that you are coming in close range. Additionally, after you extract your capture target the whole level is always alerted(with NO alarm sound/no possibilty to hack a console to lower the alarmstatus). Not a big problem, but again a strike against stealthy play.

[ZoMbi656]

Yes, spawn system is still broken, don't know what they are fixed, but game still spawn enemies right on my position or near me when I'm looking... it is even more terrible with this "idiotic" AI...

 

To DE, to make it believable, enemies should only come from tiles/rooms no players are in. If a player already cleared a tile/room, all new enemy reinforcements should always come from other areas that can be hidden from LoS. If you want to make them spawning in the open that's susceptible to LoS, do some efforts than the cheap instant respawning. See Borderlands, they shoot pods in outdoor area to insert mobs in, actually Warframe already has similar idea in invasion and space tiles, so you already have usable art assets, use them, and teleport device to insert mobs in... I mean anything to make it more believable and interesting than now. For Grineer, it makes more sense that they shoot pods or dropshipping in outdoor tiles, and use some kind of one-way elevator or door in indoor tiles, teleport or materialize with visual fx is more suitable for Corpus.

 

Yes, that is right.

[DaftMeat]

+1

Oh how I hate Syndicate "helpers" when trying to stealth solo mark hunting missions...

[MokutoBunshi]

+1

Oh how I hate Syndicate "helpers" when trying to stealth solo mark hunting missions...

Its funny though, most of the time....actually I have never seen the enemy alerted by a pet kubro or a syndacate helper.

 

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[Mama_Sasha]

Syndicate helpers during Syndicate missions, they are darn hopeless.

You can push them into a tight corner somewhere, but due to them not registered as a player unit, enemies will spawn near or right beside them and will  alert everyone.

 

I dont know why this changed, but some time ago, Spy missions from syndicates never had any of those helpers, and that was cool and good for stealth  reasons,but now, they added the noisy, potato brained induviduals that has a firerate of a kid with 30 pounds of caffine and a Super Soaker.

 

is DE pushing The Space Pirate theme more? if so then they sould consider re-branding warframe as a Space Pirate simulator.

 

So many things broken, from Ai, to stealth, to simple pathfinding. When we reach to update 30 and all these issues hasnt been fixed yet, i will make a anniversary thread or post or something.

[Mama_Sasha]

Now this one is just sad...

Give the Gif some time to load since its big, lots of frames and im stupid.

As you can see this demonstrates how pathetic the respawn system works.

If you stand on a specific platform or area that can affect your line of sight, kill an enemy, turn away and turn back, a new enemy takes its place. As You can see, you can repeat as many as you like, giving you the ability to farm EXP adn Standings.

 

But hey, this wont be fixed anyways so, you guys might as well use this to rank up your stuff. This was done on

a Grineer asteroid base in one of the Spy vaults. Jsut make sure that the weapon you want to level up is strong enough to kill them to get stealth bonus and is silent.

[ZoMbi656]

Yes, quite often I use it (the grineers asteroid is best, but other are "good" too), with silent weapon and stealth bonus you can get planty xp, and receive the maximum rank for a couple missions (at least something good), even without xp booster.

 

Edited October 14, 2015 by ZoMbi656

[MokutoBunshi]

Now this one is just sad...

Give the Gif some time to load since its big, lots of frames and im stupid.

As you can see this demonstrates how pathetic the respawn system works.

If you stand on a specific platform or area that can affect your line of sight, kill an enemy, turn away and turn back, a new enemy takes its place. As You can see, you can repeat as many as you like, giving you the ability to farm EXP adn Standings.

 

But hey, this wont be fixed anyways so, you guys might as well use this to rank up your stuff. This was done on

a Grineer asteroid base in one of the Spy vaults. Jsut make sure that the weapon you want to level up is strong enough to kill them to get stealth bonus and is silent.

That. Is. Ridiculous. Needs to be on the front page too.

 

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