Pangolin Sword: The Forgotten Sword And It's Bugged Damage

[TheCometCE]

Make the bleed procs from the Pangolin Sword scale on damage dealt.

 

 

If this small change is made, suddenly the Pangolin has a place in late-game it didn't have before, and not through brute force damage output, but through use of combos and AoE slams.

 

For those of you who are unfamiliar with it, the Pangolin sword is a longsword that, similar to the heat sword, has a 100% proc chance on its burst AoEs from jump attacks and the pause combo on Iron Phoenix. It triggers bleed on top of whatever else triggers, but unfortunately, the bleed is currently a set amount of damage that becomes irrelevant as early as level 12 or so.

 

The Heat Sword also suffers this issue with its fire triggers.

 

 

Make the DoTs scale on the damage dealt and weapons like these will take on their own niche, and become MUCH for interesting and fun to use!

[FelisImpurrator]

Interesting idea. I like it. Also, is it just me or do these weapons' AOE effects do damage in a much smaller actual radius than what their animations would indicate?

[Nxai]

The pangolin sword got hit super hard with damage 2.0 It used to be one of the strongest longswords on pure utility. It's also one of my favorites and it makes me super sad that it's only real utility now is so worthless when it has the potential to be great.

[Hixlysss]

There are several status effects, at least...3...that need to have how they calculate reworked. Gas and Toxin only do 50% of your base weapon damage, so if you use something like the soma, which has a base damage of what...10? it does 5 damage over a few seconds. Bleed proc does the same thing. Honestly, the procs need to scale to the damage dealt. If you do a shot that does 10k damage and it procs, it should do a 5k damage over time, rather than just 500 of the base damage of your weapon.

[DeMonkey]

Interesting idea. I like it. Also, is it just me or do these weapons' AOE effects do damage in a much smaller actual radius than what their animations would indicate?

Believe so, easiest to tell with the Ether Swords radiation proc. Reach does seem to affect it though.

[Neo3602]

Sounds good, DE really needs to do another balance pass on older weapons.

[TheCometCE]

Sounds good, DE really needs to do another balance pass on older weapons.

 

It's not even so much a balance issue as it is a broken mechanic issue.

 

I've brought this up a few times in the past, but it had always been buried pretty quickly. Glad to see it actually getting noticed this time around.

[Neo3602]

It's not even so much a balance issue as it is a broken mechanic issue.

 

I've brought this up a few times in the past, but it had always been buried pretty quickly. Glad to see it actually getting noticed this time around.

 

Though one of the side effects of changing how DoTs scale would probably be the return of the Acrid to some of it's former glory.

[Nxai]

I mean, innate DoTs should be just as good if not better than things you mod for though to be honest. I mean the acrid was broken back in the day but honestly if I'm pumping you with 40 different venom darts even if it's all the same venom that's a lot of friggin venom. I'm sorry but your heart is stopping sir. All of the DoTs need to be reworked. Impact procs are more useful than arguably any dot.

[Galuf]

on a more serious note, dots should be more potent than raw damages imho. Gas, Toxin, Slash, all that jazz should be rewarding to use in some situations.

 

Gas is pretty bad imho. I only use it against corpus with my ignis once per month lol because anyway after a cap it's impossible to rush things with it so you go amprex or saryn or whatever.

 

Once uppon a time dots was good stuff in warframe. Imho the game needs more mmoesque mechanics. Statuses have been rly nerfed too in general, it must change imho for once. The "status chance" has imho no impact atm, mb on some rare niche weapons that can stunlock in AoE, else even getting your corro proc doesn't mean much, and even viral doesn't work on everything and doesn't stack anymore. "Good" players you come accross have all their physical weapons with often high tier critstats, S#&$ got boring. It almost feel like the early days when everybody was using charge attack dhs and the coolkids zorens lol.

 

OT Yes Pangolin sword was a very decent weapon and all those strangely poorly coded stats on weapons should get a needed pass. (not a pharaonic task tbh)

Edited May 26, 2015 by Galuf

[Omni_Omega]

I would personally love to see a revisit to all old longswords in the game, Heat Sword, Pangolin, Jaw, Plasma, and Dark Sword all could use some love.

[DrBorris]

Status 2.0 is sorely needed. Many "low class" weapons would be brought up with it.

[FelisImpurrator]

Status 2.0 would also help weapons like the Daikyu. Good times.

 

I'm holding out for some kind of red proc mechanic. And I've posted a suggestion before about status reworks.

 

More directly on-topic, I always loved the look of that sword, but it was just too weak to keep around. Would be nice to have this.

[TheCometCE]

Status 2.0 is sorely needed. Many "low class" weapons would be brought up with it.

 

Us Grakata nerds would love that too, wouldn't mind seeing some way to bias what procs though.

 

When I use the Miter without elements, I expect to trigger a bleed on the charged shot, not a depressing impact proc from a SAW BLADE :P

[RealPandemonium]

There are several status effects, at least...3...that need to have how they calculate reworked. Gas and Toxin only do 50% of your base weapon damage, so if you use something like the soma, which has a base damage of what...10? it does 5 damage over a few seconds. Bleed proc does the same thing. Honestly, the procs need to scale to the damage dealt. If you do a shot that does 10k damage and it procs, it should do a 5k damage over time, rather than just 500 of the base damage of your weapon.

Some clarifications: 

 

Base damage includes bonuses from base damage mods like Serration, Heavy Caliber, Hornet Strike, Pressure Point, etc.  Elemental damage bonuses are not included.

 

Also, Gas procs deal 50% of base damage as an instance of Toxin damage that itself has a 100% status chance, effectively dealing 25% of base damage as Toxin damage 9 times in 8 seconds on top of the initial 50% instance.  

 

That said, your best damage potential will come from weapons that can crit/red crit, as their damage will be compounded tremendously on headshots.  Headshots cause x2 damage normally, x4 damage on a critical, x8 damage on a red crit, and status damage derived from headshots recieves its own x2 multiplier.  In the best case, your proc damage will be based on base damage x16, which is a lot of damage.  In particular, Slash procs boosted in the above manner will often out-damage the shot that procced them against high level Grineer, despite being based on base damage, because Slash procs ignore armor.  Dread is especially good for this.

 

 

Us Grakata nerds would love that too, wouldn't mind seeing some way to bias what procs though.

 

When I use the Miter without elements, I expect to trigger a bleed on the charged shot, not a depressing impact proc from a SAW BLADE :P

 Physical procs seem to be rigged to occur 50% of the time, and elementals the other 50%.  Which proc occurs from each pool is indeed biased according to the ratio of the damage types.  

 

For example, a weapon whose physical damage is composed of 90% Slash should have a 90% chance to proc Slash if it procs physically, which is always if there are no elements equipped.  If elemental damage is present in any amount, the chance for a Slash proc goes from 90% to 45%, as there is now only a 50% chance to proc physically.  Thus, if you want to proc Slash often, you should take elements off of your weapon whenever possible, though this will hurt their damage per shot considerably (the newer IPS event mods help with this, though.)

 

On the other hand, elemental procs will only occur 50% of the time even if the vast majority of inflicted damage is elemental.  Thus, when elemental procs are desirable, it is best to use a weapon with base elemental damage, as there will be no physical damage types crowding the proc pool.

 

 

Update: Physical procs are weighted 4x as much in the proc pool.  Thanks, Pythadragon, for testing!  The advice portion of the post remains accurate nonetheless.  

 

Edited May 28, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Pythadragon]

 

 Physical procs seem to be rigged to occur 50% of the time, and elementals the other 50%.  Which proc occurs from each pool is indeed biased according to the ratio of the damage types.  

 

For example, a weapon whose physical damage is composed of 90% Slash should have a 90% chance to proc Slash if it procs physically, which is always if there are no elements equipped.  If elemental damage is present in any amount, the chance for a Slash proc goes from 90% to 45%, as there is now only a 50% chance to proc physically.  Thus, if you want to proc Slash often, you should take elements off of your weapon whenever possible, though this will hurt their damage per shot considerably (the newer IPS event mods help with this, though.)

 

On the other hand, elemental procs will only occur 50% of the time even if the vast majority of inflicted damage is elemental.  Thus, when elemental procs are desirable, it is best to use a weapon with base elemental damage, as there will be no physical damage types crowding the proc pool.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/458261-a-question-about-ips-weapon-status-proc/?p=5103344

 

See above.

 

I tested this in a controlled experiment. Proc chance is an normal distribution proportional to damage % with IPS having 4x bias.

 

If your weapon is 90% slash/10% puncture/slash with +100% element (say, toxin)

It would look something like:

 

90 slash damage

5 puncture damage

5 impact damage

100 toxin damage

 

You would have

 

4*100 = 400

100 = 100

 

400 + 100 = 500

 

400/500 = 80% physical proc

100/500 = 20% elemental proc

 

Of the 80% physical proc, 90% is slash/10% other physical

0.8*0.9 = 0.72 slash

0.8*0.1 = 0.8 puncture/impact

 

thus the final distribution is:

72% slash

8% puncture/impact

20% toxin

 

Please provide data to support your conclusion re: 50/50 rigged chance.

 

I do not believe it to be correct. I have seen this assumption floating around for way too long and have never seen it substantiated. Therefore I tested it myself and found otherwise.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Pythadragon

[RealPandemonium]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/458261-a-question-about-ips-weapon-status-proc/?p=5103344

 

See above.

 

I tested this in a controlled experiment. Proc chance is an normal distribution proportional to damage % with IPS having 4x bias.

 

If your weapon is 90% slash/10% puncture/slash with +100% element (say, toxin)

It would look something like:

 

90 slash damage

5 puncture damage

5 impact damage

100 toxin damage

 

You would have

 

4*100 = 400

100 = 100

 

400 + 100 = 500

 

400/500 = 80% physical proc

100/500 = 20% elemental proc

 

Of the 80% physical proc, 90% is slash/10% other physical

0.8*0.9 = 0.72 slash

0.8*0.1 = 0.8 puncture/impact

 

thus the final distribution is:

72% slash

8% puncture/impact

20% toxin

 

Please provide data to support your conclusion re: 50/50 rigged chance.

 

I do not believe it to be correct. I have seen this assumption floating around for way too long and have never seen it substantiated. Therefore I tested it myself and found otherwise.

This makes a lot more sense than the 50% conjecture number floating around.  Thanks for your testing.  Have you updated the wiki?  I will update my posts to reflect your findings.  

[FelisImpurrator]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/458261-a-question-about-ips-weapon-status-proc/?p=5103344

 

*snip for length*

Wow. That... is interesting. And again, explains Daikyu and a lot of other stat weapons.

[Pythadragon]

This makes a lot more sense than the 50% conjecture number floating around.  Thanks for your testing.  Have you updated the wiki?  I will update my posts to reflect your findings.  

 

I don't deal with the wiki nor have I actually seen the section of the wiki that states the 50% conjecture..

 

If you know where it is (or where the current conjecture is), please link to it and/or update it if necessary!

 

Thanks

Edited May 28, 2015 by Pythadragon

[RealPandemonium]

I don't deal with the wiki nor have I actually seen the section of the wiki that states the 50% conjecture..

 

If you know where it is (or where the current conjecture is), please link to it and/or update it if necessary!

 

Thanks

Wiki has been edited.  The wording isn't as graceful as I would like it to be, but I'm not sure how to put it more concisely while retaining clarity.  Take a look here and feel free to edit: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Status_Effect#Notes

 

Thanks again for your research.