Snipers, What Could Be Done To Make Them Stand Out? (General Ideas And I Have 2!)

[Eruend]

Alright, I'm dedicating this thread to constructive criticism and suggestions on how the snipers could be improved. In the hopes that it might even lessen the burden of the dev. teams working on them. First off, I will point out my observations on why I think snipers aren't working out atm. The separation will mark where I actually propose something that may or may not help! :D

 

Well, we all know that snipers are generally shafted in this game. And sadly, it's mostly due to the very features that make this game appealing to highly mobile wall jumping ninjas. Namely, obstacles.

 

It goes without saying that long range weapons benefit from unobstructed views to key points from a (or several) defensive position(s). However, most of this game is spent running at 100mph through hallways, with the occasional expanse that is crossed in 0.2 seconds to reach the objective. That, or you just play the turret in defense missions which for the most part, have enemies engage you at mid range at best.

 

Another considerable weakness to snipers in this game is the fact that, unless they are modded to do otherwise, they will basicly be limited to one kill per bullet, severely limiting their actual usefulness in actual combat due to their slow fireing rate and low ammo capacity in a game that is basicly pitting you against constant swarms of enemies.

 

The final weakness is actually its greatest strength. The damage output per shot. It is extremely strong per shot. Uselessly so at that, seeing as most full auto weapons can crank out enough damage to take out targets in one to three bullets all the way up to end game content. The value of a sniper's damage is only shown in extreme situations that are not regularly an issue, such as trying to go for wave 200 in defense missions. While not a weakness per say, it is a wasted resource and I feel that the high damage output these guns have is actually making people think that it justifies that snipers would not need improvements in the way said damage is delivered.

 

 

________________________________________________________________

 

 

Now, I actually have two ideas that I believe would make snipers very appealing! One of which being innate long distance punch through. I'll just set an exagerated number as an example, but lets say 10 meters. Basically, a line of enemies will crumble to a sniper shot, making each bullet actually worth it. This would also allow snipers a great amount of freedom when confronted with obstacles or tight areas as the sniper could simply shoot through them to hit their target, as is currently done with punch through mods. This alone should really be implemented IMO.

 

The second idea is more of a cool factor idea and though it would definitely help in actually making the sniper reliable, it might also make it kinda broken. This idea being to allow the user to see enemies through the walls while aiming down the sight. (the outlines can simply be those used by the codex scanners). In PVE, the impact of such a feature would likely be that snipers could come closer to the kill streaks of mid-ranged weaponry and actually offer support to the team by taking out ranged threats whereas the strong zoom would still keep them awkward in close and mid range combat. This would effectively elliminate the handicap of having to fight through corridors and tight spaces. The one part where this feature may be problematic, would be in PvP for obvious reasons. I've yet to actually think of a proper way to balance this other then disabling the feature in that setting.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Eruend

[Wingdude100]

First suggestion: What do you mean by "crumble" you mean stumble? Ragdoll?

 

Second Suggestion: I think a good way to implement this is by allowing sniper rifles to see through walls only if they have the PVP exclusive mod that marks enemies on the map, and can only see an enemy if they're marked.

[GeoffFromAccounting]

First suggestion: What do you mean by "crumble" you mean stumble? Ragdoll?

 

Second Suggestion: I think a good way to implement this is by allowing sniper rifles to see through walls only if they have the PVP exclusive mod that marks enemies on the map, and can only see an enemy if they're marked.

 

I think he just means "no longer alive," figure of speech as it were

[SuperWeedy-EGT-]

Especially since Nullifiers came out they are even more obsolete. The low ammo and slow firerate dont justify the amount of damage they output.

Im hoping one day they bring out a gun that is between Latron Prime and Vectis - the ultimate rifle.

[Eruend]

That would be cool, but bringing out more guns won't fix the general issue though.

 

Also, a way to help against negators might be to allow punch through to affect the shield? Even if it's at a reduced rate. I kinda feel like it's silly that you can shoot through several enemies at once, steel plated shields and walls, but an energy field that is depleted by five rounds of a machine gun stops it.

 

If it reduced punch through to 1/4th the distance, the idea I proposed for snipers would make them effective against negators and it would not nessessarilly make guns moded for punch through insta-kill them, though it would help.

 

That, or just let the auto-rifles focus on negators and have snipers aim at other nasties? Both seem like decent options to me.

 

 

Wingdude, Superweedy pretty much nailed it on the first question you asked. As for the second, I don't believe seeing through walls is a good idea in PVP. Ever heard of a game called Perfect Dark for the N64? That **** was broken. The advantage provided by punch through alone will make skilled marksmen shine in PvP. It is already hard enough to take proper cover from an enemy, but when they can guestimate where your head is just by seeing your foot stick out, they can invalidate your cover with punch through. Ofcourse, with the whole "fast ninja" thing this game has going for it, this might also be a baseless worry that I'm having.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Eruend

[Hatzeputt]

It has been said time and again make snipers not rely on crits at all leave that to the bows, give them high but not too high base damage on body shots and let them shine with head shots,in a nutshell give them their own special head shot multiplier! This would make them require skill to get the most out of them and separate them from bows or other crit reliant weapons as far as their mechanics (and modding) are concerned.

They should also have innate punch through of at least 1.2m.

 

As a special feature you could grants snipers and the Daikyu a bubble bypass feature to make them good choices vs Nullifiers and other bubble boys but that would be pure optional. 

Edited May 27, 2015 by Hatzeputt

[Eruend]

Meh... Playing on stats alone is too vague IMO. People will always compare bows to snipers so long as they are both capable of insane damage in a single shot and thus, one will always overshadow the other with simple tweaks being done. This is why I'm proposing a mechanic change instead of just trying to hit the stats.

 

Also, making the gun more complicated to use properly would likely simply make it even less appealing then it already is. Your suggestion is not without merit, but I feel that we should try to make it more fun to use, and generally more accessible before we talk about making it reward skill properly.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Eruend

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

It has been said time and again make snipers not rely on crits at all leave that to the bows, give them high but not too high base damage on body shots and let them shine with head shots,in a nutshell give them their own special head shot multiplier! This would make them require skill to get the most out of them and separate them from bows or other crit reliant weapons as far as their mechanics (and modding) are concerned.

They should also have innate punch through of at least 1.2m.

 

As a special feature you could grants snipers and the Daikyu a bubble bypass feature to make them good choices vs Nullifiers and other bubble boys but that would be pure optional. 

 

Best idea here.

 

The Opticor is currently the best "sniper rifle" in the game because it's accurate and hits hard, without simply being a fatter Latron or Sybaris. Low rate of fire, high damage, not based on crit, but without the hassle of a really ineffective scope overlay. Raw damage won't reach the same numbers as critical hits, but it's also easier to work with hitscan than travel time and arc.

 

Other sniper rifles would not have charge time (Opticor, like Daikyu, is kind of a hybrid bow/sniper) and would have lower crit potential and damage than Opticor, but be able to repeat shots more easily. I don't know if they need a special headshot multiplier, because double damage is pretty solid on it's own, but I guess a special multiplier would depend on how their base damage was buffed.

 

To make them more usable, I would recommend optional scopes (pressing the shoulder-switch button while aiming would toggle between normal OTS aim and scoped aim) and high status chance (maybe 100% impact proc so the sniper shot always staggers an enemy?). Punch through only if modded for, like other rifles.

Edited May 27, 2015 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[Eruend]

I don't know... That suggestion still makes them rather unruly compared to all the other rifles, including Latron(prime). I mean, making the scope optional through the mission does help it in mid range engagements, but fire rate will still be a major issue making it near useless in short range and this doesn't solve any of its long range issues. I'll say that it's an interesting angle to think in though.

 

Got any thoughts on the innate punch through approach? As of yet, I don't see any cons to that.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Eruend

[Naqel]

Alright, I'm dedicating this thread to constructive criticism and suggestions on how the snipers could be improved.

 

Snipers cannot be improved in any reasonable direction.

 

The problem that prevents them from standing out, is that every other weapon in the game can deliver pin-point accurate damage over great distances.

 

To "improve" sniper rifles via buffs, would require such ridiculous amounts of stat and mechanics based additions, that they would cease to be sniper rifles.

To make sniper rifles properly stand out from the crowd, other weapon types would need to have their accuracy reduced(or made less effective at long range in some other way), because you can't make sniper rifles more-than-pinpoint accurate.

 

The problem is that with this community, even the near mention of the n-word causes fits of uncontrolable whining and anger.

Which will, in the end, probably either never see sniper rifles be a viable weapon category, either having them become statistically similar to semi-auto rifles, or mechanically so far from what one would expect from a sniper rifle, that they would not fulfill the sniper fantasy for most players.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Naqel

[Eruend]

Yeah, I feel what you're saying, but even if DE decided to do such a ballsy move, I don't think it would benefit snipers all that much, as what's gimping them isn't only the fact that other guns can be used as effective substitutes for long range engagements, but mostly the game mechanics themselves putting snipers in a difficult position to start with, as I've described in the first post.

 

Also, I completely disagree with it being impossible to fix properly. I know I'm coming back to the punch through idea allot, but I believe that it is one solution that does not stray from what a sniper should do. Ok, sure. Regular snipers don't go through thick walls or multiple targets easily, but regular snipers don't actually hit that much harder then assault rifles in general. The damage the WF snipers do compared to WF assault rifles is akin to comparing an AK-47 to a tank buster. And tank busters do pass through walls and multiple enemies. :p

 

Of course I'm not shooting down the possibility of having other viable solutions, I'm just kinda attached to this one and have yet to see a reason that it would be bad. And I will definitely not acnowlege that there isn't a way to fix snipers.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Eruend

[(PSN)gino1313]

I like the idea of making them a rail gun with insane headshot damage and still powerful body shots. I think they should have a base 2.5x headshot multiplier and crit mods should increase this damage multiplier.

[BrazilianJoe]

My take on Snipers: 

 

Crit damage multiplier mods also mod headshot damage and weak points damage (e.g.: Banshee power). 

E.g. Vital Sense = + 120% damage; headshot = 200% + 120% = 320% damage, or x 3.2

 

Headshot bonus is applied to all bubble bursting in game:

 

- Nullifier Bubbles will have its shrink rate multiplied by it, going beyond what is currently possible with any weapon (even without mods) .

- Eximus Cryo bubbles take damage multiplied by the headshot multiplier.

 

Give them some punch through, 1.2m the average, some more , some less.

[Setsuna_Major]

If damage is an issue, let's bring back armor ignoring damage. Perhaps as a mod exclusive to snipers, or better yet innate with the sniper class themselves.

[Sixty5]

Two things I'd do to buff snipers.

Give them an increased Headshot multiplier (x3 to start with). This rewards accurate shots and lets them scale a bit better with critical damage.

Secondly a new mod:

Phasic Rounds.

Shots bypass 20/40/60/80% of an enemies defenses.

What does that mean? Well shooting at a nullifier through a bubble will result in him still getting hit with 80% of the damage he otherwise would take.

Likewise an enemy with 90% damage reduction would have 80% of it ignored, resulting in the shot dealing 82% damage rather than 10%.

Late game this means snipers become effective tools for taking out dangerous targets, though accuracy becomes much more important

[Eruend]

Oh my god... I'm starting to think that no one here actually read my first post... Nor did they understand the actual problem to snipers. The damage is not the issue.

[(PSN)gino1313]

Give them an increased Headshot multiplier (x3 to start with). This rewards accurate shots and lets them scale a bit better with critical damage.

Secondly a new mod:

Phasic Rounds.

Shots bypass 20/40/60/80% of an enemies defenses.

 

So on a corrupted bombard, you could have its base 50% reduction, then reduced 80%, so you score a net 30% damage buff. And when you use the following build: http://goo.gl/YTCNhR

 

Damage reduction is equal to 300/(300+Armor

 

You get the following armor values for each damage component

Slash: 500x1.5 = 750, 71.428% reduction - 80% = 8.57% damage increase.

Puncture: 500x.85= 425, 58.621% reduction - 80% = 21.37% damage increase.

Else: 500, 62.5% - 80% = 17.5% damage increase.

 

For the flesh you get:

Slash: 25% damage increase

Viral: 75% damage increase

Impact: -25% damage

 

 

So overall we get

Impact: 2055.163(1+.175-.25)=1901.025

Puncture:1799.410(1+.2137)=2183.944

Slash:1285.618(1+.25+.0857)=1717.200

Viral:9252.344(1+.175+.75)=17810.762

 

We add these to get 23612.931 damage. raw. no crits no headshot.

 

Then we add the grinder damage buff and get 30696.810

 

Then for fun lets call it a headshot, and you get the extra 1.8 damage from crit damage mods as well as the 3.0 base for a x4.8 damage increase for a grand total of 147344.689 damage. That is enough to kill a small city. With punch through anything within a line dies. That is unbalance. That is the math you should do before posting.

 

EDIT: this comes off a bit critical, this is super sarcastic even with the huge damage increases from all the proposed buffs you get less damage than any well modded bow with a complete loss of accuracy and a dropoff of usage at range. I would like to see huge damage buffs to the snipers.

Edited May 28, 2015 by (PS4)gino1313

[Eruend]

again, damage is not the issue.

 

"Snipers deal less damage then bows, buff snipers."

 

Snipers get buffed.

 

"Bows do less damage then snipers now. Buff bows"

 

Bows get buffed.

 

"Now snipers are the weaker ones again..."

 

Both weapons get balanced stats

 

"Oh great, now they are both the same. What's the use of having these two separate weapon types?"

 

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

 

 

STATS ALONE DOES NOT FIX THIS ISSUE.

 

They are both weapons that already deal enough damage to one shot almost anything. Your arguments to buffing damage is akin to saying "Yeah, but that other gun oneshots things MORE!" Let that sink in a bit then come back once you understand how ridiculous that actually is.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Eruend

[Sixty5]

So on a corrupted bombard, you could have its base 50% reduction, then reduced 80%, so you score a net 30% damage buff. And when you use the following build: http://goo.gl/YTCNhR

 

Damage reduction is equal to 300/(300+Armor

 

You get the following armor values for each damage component

Slash: 500x1.5 = 750, 71.428% reduction - 80% = 8.57% damage increase.

Puncture: 500x.85= 425, 58.621% reduction - 80% = 21.37% damage increase.

Else: 500, 62.5% - 80% = 17.5% damage increase.

 

For the flesh you get:

Slash: 25% damage increase

Viral: 75% damage increase

Impact: -25% damage

 

 

So overall we get

Impact: 2055.163(1+.175-.25)=1901.025

Puncture:1799.410(1+.2137)=2183.944

Slash:1285.618(1+.25+.0857)=1717.200

Viral:9252.344(1+.175+.75)=17810.762

 

We add these to get 23612.931 damage. raw. no crits no headshot.

 

Then we add the grinder damage buff and get 30696.810

 

Then for fun lets call it a headshot, and you get the extra 1.8 damage from crit damage mods as well as the 3.0 base for a x4.8 damage increase for a grand total of 147344.689 damage. That is enough to kill a small city. With punch through anything within a line dies. That is unbalance. That is the math you should do before posting.

 

EDIT: this comes off a bit critical, this is super sarcastic even with the huge damage increases from all the proposed buffs you get less damage than any well modded bow with a complete loss of accuracy and a dropoff of usage at range. I would like to see huge damage buffs to the snipers.

You read me wrong.

 

by ignore 80% of defenses, I mean in terms of the damage reduction. 50% of damage reduction wouldn't be reduced by 30%, it would be reduces by 40%, so the damage would be a tad higher.

 

The thing is, Sniper need to do a lot of damage, they don't have the crit scaling that bows have (redcrit headshot multipliers get insane), and have the added disadvantage of needing to reload, the buffs I outlined don't really make them overpowered, compared to the high sustained damage output that other guns have

[Naqel]

Of course I'm not shooting down the possibility of having other viable solutions, I'm just kinda attached to this one and have yet to see a reason that it would be bad. And I will definitely not acnowlege that there isn't a way to fix snipers.

 

Perhaps not quite "viable", in that DE don't have the balls to do anything this radical(nor the brains to do anything this smart), but a solution to the issue could come from replacing critical hits as a random roll, with critical hits as "bonus damage on striking a specific location".

 

Critical hits as a random chance exist to compensate for the player being unable to apply their manual dexterity to actions in RPG's.

In warframe, we can with great reliability direct our shots to the heads or other weakspots of our enemies.

 

Were the random crits entirely replaced with a variable bonus for striking weakspots(rather than the static one), sniper rifles could potentially have a statistical niche all for themselves.

 

My only worry with this is that some would consider it a good idea to mix the two, throwing any gameplay balance further into the gutter.

[(PSN)gino1313]

by ignore 80% of defenses, I mean in terms of the damage reduction. 50% of damage reduction wouldn't be reduced by 30%, it would be reduces by 40%, so the damage would be a tad higher.

Oh alright I misread. You still get like absolutely no damage and they cannot compete with any bow's red crits. That was with a full heavy calibur, which is kryptonite to a good sniper build. The point is that the values aren't big enough under these conditions, which are hugely increased from the current single shot damage of the most powerful sniper in the game. 

 

I made my calculations assuming it was subtracting 80% from the resistance, so 50% reduction would be changed to a 30% damage buff. So the calculation would have been like 60k from your mod's intended use.

Edited May 28, 2015 by (PS4)gino1313

[Inarticulate]

My thoughts:

Snipers should ignore all enemy bubbles. This includes the Arctic Eximus Snow Globe and Nullifier bubbles. Ignoring Frost's Snow Globe in PvE might be a bit too overpowered, so let's not do that. This effectively differentiates them from bows and cements their role as a one-shot-one-kill weapon that focuses on taking out priority targets.

Snipers should have a zero base critical rate and a 100% critical rate on weak points (including headshots). The weak point critical rate may or may not be moddable.

Snipers should have exclusive AoE mods similar to Thunderbolt. One possible suggestion (for the sake of differentiation) is a mod that slows or stuns enemies in a radius around the bullet's first impact (100% proc rate at maxed rank because snipers need to be reliable).

Edited May 28, 2015 by Inarticulate

[GeneralArmchair]

Two things I'd do to buff snipers.

Give them an increased Headshot multiplier (x3 to start with). This rewards accurate shots and lets them scale a bit better with critical damage.

Secondly a new mod:

Phasic Rounds.

Shots bypass 20/40/60/80% of an enemies defenses.

What does that mean? Well shooting at a nullifier through a bubble will result in him still getting hit with 80% of the damage he otherwise would take.

Likewise an enemy with 90% damage reduction would have 80% of it ignored, resulting in the shot dealing 82% damage rather than 10%.

Late game this means snipers become effective tools for taking out dangerous targets, though accuracy becomes much more important

sniper rifles are already in a bad place. We don't need gimmick mods eating into the upgrade real estate. It would be far better to simply grant sniper rifles that defense bypass as an innate trait to the weapons (like how the Lanka innately has punch through)

Assault rifles like the soma are far more appealing than snipers on paper. We really need to stack the deck with a ton of innate bonuses to give people a reason to opt to bring the sniper rifle over an assault rifle.

[Pythadragon]

Give all Sniper rifles:

-innate punchthrough

-increased ammo drop amounts

-increased damage for being farther away from the target

-Increased headshot multipliers

[Thaumatos]

Oh my god... I'm starting to think that no one here actually read my first post... Nor did they understand the actual problem to snipers. The damage is not the issue.

Join the club of people who want their ideas heard on the Warframe feedback forum.

 

50% of the people just contradict you because they hate change, the other 50% try to argue a point you haven't even made.

 

Sniper rifles need to be given situations where they can be useful.  Everything is too close in Warframe and the stuff that's worth killing usually favors DPS over burst damage.  Those are the two main things they have going against them right now.