Rhino Vs Ember: Durability Analysis

[w00tm0ng3r]

With the recent nerf to Iron Skin I've seen a disturbing amount of comments that make it abundantly clear this community does not understand how subtractive mods work. I'm here to clear up this misunderstanding.

 

First off, damage reduction is subtractive not additive like +health or + damage. Unlike additive mods, subtractive mods experience INCREASING marginal utility as the value increases. It should be obvious that +2% damage is twice as good as +1% damage, while going from +99% damage to +100% is significantly less impressive. Subtractive mods are the opposite: -99% damage taken is twice as good as -98% damage taken because it is the difference between taking 1% damage and taking 2% damage. On the other hand, going from 100% damage taken (-0%) to 99% damage taken (-1%) is unimpressive.

 

In the context of our discussion, this means that the gulf between 80% and 91% damage reduction looks more like a canyon than the pothole it first appears to be. Overheat is not 11% better than iron skin. Overheat is not 11/80 = 13.75% better than iron skin. Overheat is 122% better than iron skin. It is the difference between taking 9% damage and taking 20% damage.

 

The monstrous performance gap between overheat and iron skin more than closes Ember's base stat deficiency. Rhino has 50% more shields than Ember. However, with both their defensive steroids up, Ember comes out on top with 48% more effective shields than Rhino (3333.33 vs 2250). Nominally, overheat brings Ember to absolute parity with Rhino on health, being as much better than iron skin as Rhino's 150 armor is better than Ember's 10 armor. However, the stacking between armor and damage reduction seems to be borked in my testing. In practice, Rhino takes 11% health damage while Ember takes about 7% (note: with perfect stacking they should both be taking 8% damage), and they both have equivalent health pools. This means Ember has 57% more effective health than Rhino (~1429 vs ~910). 

 

Tl;dr: With both their defensive steroids up, and Ember has greater uptime now that Iron skin only lasts 13 seconds without continuity (equal duration and cost, but Ember has 450 energy to Rhino's 300), Ember effectively has 48% more shields and 57% more health than Rhino.

[MetalGerbil]

good think ember also has a skill that holds targets in the air.

i also like how she has a mobility skill that gets her around.

isnt ember great!

[draconic74]

good think ember also has a skill that holds targets in the air.

i also like how she has a mobility skill that gets her around.

isnt ember great!

 

Rhino's "ult" is irrelevant now thanks to that same effect being on a normal skill on the new guy. Seems to last longer and have higher range too. It is also a bit annoying that his ult is the same as his third skill, with the higher cost being made up by the slow-fall. And his first is just a minor slash dash. Invincibility made up for it. No uber-tanking, no use. You can get his other traits elsewhere.

Edited May 19, 2013 by draconic74

[Worira]

good think ember also has a skill that holds targets in the air.

i also like how she has a mobility skill that gets her around.

isnt ember great!

 

The mage is half again as durable as the tank. No amount of sophistry is going to make that any less obviously broken.

[Nicocat]

The mage is half again as durable as the tank. No amount of sophistry is going to make that any less obviously broken.

Don't forget, Ember incinerates everything trying to kill her while tanking.

[ADDpillz]

ember blows

 

she has two attacks that do exactly the same thing. 

 

They could have completely removed iron skin and I would still consider Rhino better than ember.

 

Rhino charge is a spammable instakill aoe move

2 AOE Crowd control techniques 

iron skin is really just the icing on the cake. 

 

Ember need a drastic buff. I think she is the weakest warframe. 

Edited May 19, 2013 by ADDpillz

[gopher]

ember blows

she has two attacks that do exactly the same thing.

They could have completely removed iron skin and I would still consider Rhino better than ember.

Rhino charge is a spammable instakill aoe move

2 AOE Crowd control techniques

iron skin is really just the icing on the cake.

Ember need a drastic buff. I think she is the weakest warframe.

Wrong. All wrong.

Rhino charge doesn't one hit kill anything past the first few planets, after that it just does low damage and lightly pushes enemies.

Also, ember's ring of fire can stunlock anything more effectively than radial blast or rhino stomp right now.

It's a real problem when a caster frame is can be a better tank than the tank.

Edited May 19, 2013 by gopher

[jmbgacy]

Why does everyone keep thinking of this game in terms of RPG's / traditional roles?

Rhino isn't "the tank" he's "the Rhino"
Ember isn't "the mage" or "the caster" she's "the Ember"

Am I saying that readjustments don't need to be made / feedback doesn't need to be given? No. Just saying people should stop thinking of the frames so rigidly... This is a high mobility game... the best tank is the one getting out of the way of the damage.

Has it not occurred to people that maybe after consideration DE would prefer you stick and move rather than smash your head into every wall?

Edited May 19, 2013 by jmbgacy

[JerryMouse13]

I really hope a Mod or Rebecca can bring this to the attention of the Devs.

[Lagoon7]

Why does everyone keep thinking of this game in terms of RPG's / traditional roles?

Rhino isn't "the tank" he's "the Rhino"

Ember isn't "the mage" or "the caster" she's "the Ember"

Am I saying that readjustments don't need to be made / feedback doesn't need to be given? No. Just saying people should stop thinking of the frames so rigidly... This is a high mobility game... the best tank is the one getting out of the way of the damage.

Has it not occurred to people that maybe after consideration DE would prefer you stick and move rather than smash your head into every wall?

Because those names represent the playstyle the character's skills and stats enforce. If you are playing a character with a high mana (energy in warframe's case) pool, tons of very effective damage spells, and low base survivability, you are playing a nuker character (aka: wizard/mage). You can call it whatever the hell you want, but those characters are designed around that playstyle.

 

So it doesn't matter if you call it "glass cannon", if its has insanely high base survivability, skills geared towards survivability, drawing aggro, and crowd control... your playing a tank.

 

In other words, ember's skills and stats support a mage type playstyle. Whereas rhino's skills and stats support a tank type playstyle. The problem here is that the mage's melee range AoE nuke (which has tacked on survivability, as most close range over-time mage spells tend to have in many games, such as flame shields and stuff) makes the mage a better tank then the actual tank character, as well as killing stuff.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Lagoon7

[goozilla]

Why does everyone keep thinking of this game in terms of RPG's / traditional roles?

Rhino isn't "the tank" he's "the Rhino"

Ember isn't "the mage" or "the caster" she's "the Ember"

Am I saying that readjustments don't need to be made / feedback doesn't need to be given? No. Just saying people should stop thinking of the frames so rigidly... This is a high mobility game... the best tank is the one getting out of the way of the damage.

Has it not occurred to people that maybe after consideration DE would prefer you stick and move rather than smash your head into every wall?

Then why would you give Rhino the largest bulk in the game? Why would you give him the slowest speed in the game? Why would you give him the smallest energy pool? Why would you give him crowd control and tanking abilities?

 

Oh wait, its because he's a tank. Doi.

[Lagoon7]

Actually, what i think a very productive use of this topic would be is to find out a nice number to nerf ember's flame shield (im calling it that) down to so that with it on she has roughly equal survivability with rhino at 50% dmg reduction. My reasoning for that number is because just being equal in survivability with rhino when using that skill wouldn't make it worth it on any mission level 20~25+, as the risk of going melee range would greatly outweigh the reward.

 

This would make a pretty interesting dynamic with ember where the user would have to choose whether or not to bring survivability mods to complement their flameshield skill depending on how they want to play, and having different playstyles for the same warframe is a good sign of a well designed and fun class.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Lagoon7

[JerryMouse13]

I'd rather see Rhino buffed up to compete at her level than see her nerfed down to ours.

 

The number of nerfs in this game is to damn high!

Edited May 19, 2013 by JerryMouse13

[Worira]

Yeah, Ember doesn't need a nerf.

[goozilla]

Yeah, Ember doesn't need a nerf.

She needed a buff for the longest time. Please tell me that's not sarcasm.

[Worira]

It's not.

[Lagoon7]

I'd rather see Rhino buffed up to compete at her level than see her nerfed down to ours.

 

The number of nerfs in this game is to damn high!

Normally i would agree as buffs are always better then nerfs, but 91% damage reduction is a bit too insane for a mage. In compensation i do hope they buff some of ember's other skills, i sorta feel like she falls behind some of the other caster characters, but i haven't played her enough to form a solid opinion.

 

I also think that 80% DMGR iron skin is fine (but bring back stun/poison immunity), but rhino also needs some buffs to his other kinda pathetic skills.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Lagoon7

[Worira]

It really isn't, though. Numerical damage decreases are not particularly valuable in this game, due to the sheer amount of damage enemies pump out.

[JerryMouse13]

Normally i would agree as buffs are always better then nerfs, but 91% damage reduction is a bit too insane for a mage. In compensation i do hope they buff some of ember's other skills, i sorta feel like she falls behind some of the other caster characters, but i haven't played her enough to form a solid opinion.

 

Consider that is does take a maxed focus mode, it's only 70% otherwise. If Rhino has 90% mitigation without the need for Focus, I would call that fair.

 

Especially considering that most of Ember's skills are DoT, as apposed to simple Nukes. Granting her comparable durability, at increased cost seems like it would work out.

[w00tm0ng3r]

ember blows

 

she has two attacks that do exactly the same thing. 

 

They could have completely removed iron skin and I would still consider Rhino better than ember.

 

Rhino charge is a spammable instakill aoe move

2 AOE Crowd control techniques 

iron skin is really just the icing on the cake. 

 

Ember need a drastic buff. I think she is the weakest warframe. 

 

I actually find the bolded part hilarious, not because it's not true, but because it's even more applicable to Rhino. Two days ago I would've defended Rhino to the death, but even then I had to admit Radial Blast is a complete waste of time and energy. It does half the damage of rhino charge for 3 times the energy and it's CC is bluntly outmatched by any heavy weapon leap slam with North Wind. Compared to rhino stomp it barely costs less energy, it hits half the radius (so 1/4 the area), and again has a lesser CC. It's damage is not even a bad joke so much as a groan-worthy pun, barely two shotting level 15 Grineer. Forget other frames' abilities, radial blast is utterly overshadowed by two abilities in Rhino's OWN kit, and neither of them is iron skin. 

 

On the topic of the ult, the wiki lied. Rhino stomp maxes out at 6 seconds, and continuity doesn't work on it. It'd be a good ability if it actually lasted 11.7 seconds with continuity as the wiki would have us believe. Unfortunately it lasts half of that. If someone with Excalibur would like to run some tests on radial blind, I'd appreciate it. Until that time, going off the wiki, Excalibur has a 12 second blind in a 14 meter radius for 50 energy... so it costs half as much, hits 2/3 the radius, and lasts twice as long as Rhino's ultimate. Nice.

[Lagoon7]

It really isn't, though. Numerical damage decreases are not particularly valuable in this game, due to the sheer amount of damage enemies pump out.

Warframe is a PvE game, balancing for any of the warframes is technically a non-issue. Unlike PvP games where balance is directly integral to the overall experience.

 

The reason why balance between warframes is really important is more based on its impact on the community. If one warframe is much better then the other you will find groups that might not want you there or call you a waste of space simply because you don't use that warframe (rhino is currently suffering the opposite), also there is little incentive to play any other warframe as you are pretty much gimping yourself and your group (once again, rhino is currently suffering the opposite).

 

Ember can work as a 91% DMGR mage/tank, but keeping her at 91% raises the bar for any other characters that specialize in tankiness. In order to maintain his quota as a pure tank, Rhino will have to be far ahead of any non-tank class, and a good bit ahead of tank hybrids in order to be considered a good warframe.

 

Because even if they buff rhino to be the best tank, if he is only a little better then the tank hybrids, he will still be considered a waste of space because the little extra tank isn't worth the increased damage/utility a hybrid can bring to the table (especially considering that rhino's own utility is some of the worst).

 

In order for Rhino to be an acceptable pure tank character, he has to be the better tank then any other non-pure tank by a longshot.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Lagoon7

[Worira]

But Ember is still not a good tank. Damage reduction is not that good. Actual tanks and even off-tanks have methods of entirely preventing damage, not merely reducing the amount of it that gets through. Warframe is fundamentally not balanced around a DPS race.

[JerryMouse13]

But Ember is still not a good tank. Damage reduction is not that good. Actual tanks and even off-tanks have methods of entirely preventing damage, not merely reducing the amount of it that gets through. Warframe is fundamentally not balanced around a DPS race.

 

Reduction of 100 damage down to 9 'is not that good'?

 

....

 

ooookaaaayyyyy...... I guess I'll take your word for it.

[Lagoon7]

But Ember is still not a good tank. Damage reduction is not that good. Actual tanks and even off-tanks have methods of entirely preventing damage, not merely reducing the amount of it that gets through. Warframe is fundamentally not balanced around a DPS race.

Normally i would agree that Damage reduction isn't the single most important thing on tank when it comes to performing their role, CC is pretty much equal with Damage reduction when it comes to tanking.

 

However our pure tank warframe has absolutely terrible CC, so currently the tanking meta (oh god) and the way aggro works is purely based off of whomever can charge in to the fray drawing the most fire and survive the longest. Sadly, ember beats rhino right now, if not is a very close super close second as well as having the benefit of being a nuker type character (whereas rhino has nothing else to his name other then survivability).

 

Honestly, DE has done a rather shoddy job with rhino in retrospective. How he has gone through this many updates without fixing his other completely useless skills is mind boggling, and then they nerf his one useful skill without touching the totally brokenly useless other skills?

 

Sloppy.

 

I am loving your game DE, Warframe is fun, has taken some of my money and will probably take more. But this kind of thing can't happen once you leave beta. You will find people a lot less forgiving of stuff like this once your no longer in beta.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Lagoon7

[VanillaRegal]

Don't forget, Ember incinerates everything trying to kill her while tanking.

Just like Banshee used to do.