[Hydroid] The Worse Ultimate In The Game

[Juebev]

Revamped 8/6/2015 in Light of

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/502088-hydroid-quality-of-life-adjustments/?p=5635620

 

-Removed all Nekros Comments

 

 

Good evening, Tenno

 

I come to you today with a subject I've been meaning to discuss for awhile now, and with frames now getting looked at it  I realize that now is probably the best time to give my opinion on the matter.

 

Before I begin allow me to give some information about myself and where I'm going with this thread. I primarily play solo and I generally complete Tactical Alerts, Events and any other challenges alone unless it's required for me to work with others (or to spice things up) . Hydroid is my most-used frame and I generally use him for everything except farming.

 

With that, let's begin:

Tentacle Swarm and why it's Bad

 

Hydroid has the worse ultimate in the game and I will explain why in one word: inconsistency   

 

Whether you hate certain ability or absolutely love it - there is one thing they all have in common and that's consistency. We can always depend on the ability to accomplish its purpose most of the time. Hydroid Ultimate regardless of how it's modded is hilariously inconsistent and unreliable.

 

According to the Ability description, Hydroid "Summons a creature from the deep to wreak havoc" but in-actuality Hydroid only summons void worms to flail erratically in hopes that it grabs something in whatever spot they feel like popping up. It has been said for a long time now that Tentacle Swarm is basically dumb RNG with a cooldown and this is simply unacceptable. Allow me to provide some rough examples with some unmodded frames:

 

Examples

 

Note: Even though these frames are unmodded, they are consistent and mods easily add on and compliment these powers. Frames such as Nyx,Mesa,Banshee,Ash and Rhino can be on the move and recast their abilities - Chroma who is similar to hydroid can easily recast  and continue moving and has a trade-off for losing his armor. This all works well for a fast-paced game and we can easily examine other the ultimate's and compare them and find that they share this same trait - consistency - because when you press four you know what to expect.

 

 

Hydroid

 

Note: As you can already tell from the gif, Tentacle swarm is inconsistent and derpy. Mods only barely make this power salvageable and even then its situational. Hydroid is not a damage dealer and this isn't about giving him buffs,making Tentacle Swarm Toggle-able or trying to make to make him more viable in situations that depend more on skill than on abilities. Hydroid is summoning a creature and should behave intelligently as such and there are many creative ways this can be reworked.

 

His other abilities, I'm satisfied with though there is a thread with changes satisfactory suggestions as well (except for Tentacle Swarm which needs to be reworked) I will put Hydroids suggestions in Italic from the link below.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/198866-retune-all-the-frames-612-limbo-revisited/

 

Tempest Barrage

-I see no reason why this ability cannot get the "Soul Punch" treatment and be performed without interrupting other actions such as shooting and reloading.

- Tempest Barrage is one-handed and can be recast while active. If overlayed on Undertow, Tempest Barrage can damage foes within the puddle.

 

Tidal Surge

- Fine!

- Tidal Surge collects and continuously pushes enemies caught in it for the remainder of the duration, only releasing and ragdolling them during the Slash portion. Can be cast while Undertow is active to relocate the puddle and all enemies inside.

 

Undertow

-My favorite ability in the game due to its utility

-Fine!

-Undertow removes collision for enemies that wander into the pool. Other abilities may be cast while active.
 

 

My Stance on Farming

 

This subject will inevitably appear and I want to let it be known how I feel and always felt on the matter. To give you an Idea I will say that  but what really bothered me the most is when I was farming Alad and someone told me Pilfering swarm doesn't work on bosses. This is how bad it has gotten.

 

The knee-jerk reaction would be to nerf these Abilities (or add cooldowns something even Scott disagrees with) but that solves nothing because people will always find the most efficient way of doing things, this is a something not exclusive to warframe, it happens in all video games and even in real life. Right now the most played frames are ones that specialize in mass killing or massive quantities of mob drops. I am sympathetic to those who get angry at the current situation however some of them need to realize that others will get confrontational when you tell them play the game differently because right now the game rewards you for bashing your keyboard number keys and not skillful gameplay (this is also due to long tedious RNG farming) however this is an entirely different subject.

 

Hydroid needs his ultimate to be reworked - period. Everything else is secondary.  His Ultimate needs to evolve or at least match its description. Chroma is a perfect example of having a summon, with his ultimate being consistent and reliable.

 

Conclusion

 

The reason I typed this out is because how frustrating Tentacle Swarm is right now along with the current state of the game when it comes to recruiting and loot. I don't really like to do this sort of thing because I know how bad the forums can get and some in the community at times can be extremely hard-headed. But I owe it to my hydroid to at least make an attempt to create this thread even if it is ignored by the community and Devs.

 

I've been waiting a long time for Hydroid to get some attention- seeing Valkyr getting new skins, Excal with new skins and reworks along with Frost,Rhino and even Ember, but seeing Hydroid sink into obscurity only to be used for a loot  is pretty discouraging.

 

I'm not quitting the game mind you but I really want to see Tentacle swarm get the rework it so desperately needs in this year of quality. I know some of you are getting ready to criticize with unproductive short remarks as "Tentacle Swarm is fine" but I can assure you its not and the way it is implemented and being used right now is totally and utterly unacceptable.

 

And if absolutely nothing is done, then so be it.

 

Thanks for reading enjoy the rest of your day.

 

TL:DR

Please Rework Tentacle Swarm from

to this

 

What Tentacle Swarm should be during a T4 Capture:

 

Edited August 22, 2015 by Juebev

[Per_Mortem]

Nice!, I agree poor hydroid has no love. +1

[Xhos]

Please don't remove Desecrate x_x

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I think Tentacles always appear where the player moves the reticle during casting. I can't find any sources to confirm, but that's how it's seemed to me and how I've always used it--and I don't have the problem others seem to with it missing enemies.

[TheGrimCorsair]

Pretty much spot on. I use Hydroid with Narrow-minded and the tentacles are just... even the though the concentration is usually really good (with the odd ceiling crawler), and amazing in a tight hallway, the tentacles are *painfully* unreliable in function. I've had Heavy Gunners and other large units wander through fields of them and not get snagged or knocked down, I've had situations where they come out of the wall and just. Miss. EVERYTHING. It's hands-down the one thing I dislike most about Hydroid.

I really don't mind Tempest Barrage being the way it is, but I'd appreciate an off-hand artillery barrage, too.

 

And yeah, don't get rid of Desecrate, the way it works with Equilibrium and Despoil is a really cool interaction for Nekros, and lets him play way differently than other frames... but the horking for loot effect can walk on it (maybe make Despoil the default and mod for loot find? IDK).

 

I think Tentacles always appear where the player moves the reticle during casting. I can't find any sources to confirm, but that's how it's seemed to me and how I've always used it--and I don't have the problem others seem to with it missing enemies.

 

It's a crapshoot. Always. Which means there exists a possibility for those tentacles to always generate a great pattern or focus. It's just not the way it works in the field for what would seem the wider majority of players. As it stands, changes for consistency, even if not to extreme as proposed by the original poster, would be a huge quality of life improvement for anyone picking up the 'frame.

Edited June 27, 2015 by TheGrimCorsair

[Archwizard]

I absolutely agree that Tentacle Swarm needs more consistency. Change how tentacles spawn, instead of being spawned in random locations in the hopes of an enemy passing by. Improve their targeting if an enemy is near the reticule (I cannot count the number of times I've cast the skill through a doorway, around a corner, under a catwalk, etc. only for the tentacles to spawn on those surfaces), and have tentacles that will be "unused" on-cast form a congruent shape around the targeted location, like a deployable trap. Then make it so every time a tentacle slams down, they perform a (small) radial knockdown, so they can still CC when they have a target gripped.

 

However, as far as Pilfering Swarm...

 

The reward structure for it is conditional, but in a manner that is easily predicted - meaning that you can use it in a particular manner for the intended outcome (namely, "My ultimate must get the killing blow"). Yes, you could just spam Tentacle Swarm on the target... but the fact that it has a durational nature means you won't be doing so to the same extent as Desecrate, and still have opportunities to act while it's active (even if it's entirely likely that you're just going to go back to your puddle; that's your prerogative).

The fact that this condition requires coordination from your allies makes it unlikely to be exploited; nobody wants a loot b&%$h who imposes on your kill count, and some of the enemies with the greatest reward can't be killed by it anyway.

It really just highlights the point I've been making: Everybody wants a Nekros spamming Desecrate in the background because it doesn't cost them anything; few want to be one. Everyone would want to be in the place of the Hydroid; nobody would want one playing for them. The irony is delicious.

 

To be honest, every time I've mentioned "I'm in Pilfering Swarm build" in a group, the other players shrugged and ignored me. It's a perk to them, but not one to fight over - because it requires something from them to pull off: restraint.

Meanwhile, "I'm not in a Desecrate build" leads to angry rants from people who feel entitled to what you offer because "Nekros" is synonymous with "Desecrate". It's not because it's an augment either; you'll get a similar response (albeit more muted by comparison) from people who expect you to be in Greedy Pull or Total Eclipse build.

 

I admit, having any class be as meta as to affect reward structures is an awful idea since it serves as a bandaid fix (in the devs eyes) to grindwalls... but given the choice between having to Desecrate and having to Pilfering Swarm, I'll take Pilfering Swarm.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Archwizard

[AkerTheSpjot]

You sir, are now my hero of the day.

Hydroid was my favorite frame back when I was a n00b. I still like him, but less so now with the rework of Excal and release of Chroma.

But anyway, that said, it's really upset me to know that Hydroid's been getting so little attention as few augments (not that they're bad, but just not enough). DE should focus on reworking Frost for now but hopefully Hydroid will be next to be looked at.

[Racter]

I think Tentacle Swarm should be removed entirely and replaced with a tsunami type thing or some type of flood. Everything from the way the damage is dealt (2k up front then ticking for 100 is ridiculous) to the way they spawn (all over the place, half the time missing all or most of the enemies entirely at default range) is just annoying. On top of that, all the rest of his powers are water (water cannon blasts, wave, puddle) and then you have Tentacle Swarm. I understand giant squids are somewhat thematically appropriate, but a wave seems more fitting and could do the same thing. I don't think water physics were a thing when Hydroid was introduced, but with water tiles coming perhaps this would be more reasonable now.

 

On the other hand, Pilfering Swarm is one of the few things they've done recently that actually reduced the grind. I am 100% in support of it and think if anything more abilities should have that added as a feature. Prior to that, the only time I actually saw Hydroid was puddle parties and maybe once a month in other missions. Granted, he was harder to get back then, but even with Pilfering Swarm and no more beacon farming I'm still the only person I know personally that's willing to use him outside of interception.

 

Outside of the oddities of Tentacle Swarm, I'd like to see Tidal Surge scale off of strength instead of duration, seeing as duration currently increases the speed you move and not the length of time you spend moving. Range would also be more logical, but more range makes Tempest Barrage and Tentacle Swarm less effective and doesn't affect Undertow at all so would be less desirable IMO.

 

Removing Desecrate would make survival as it is now impossible past 30ish minutes, and removing Pilfering Swarm with it would make it impossible period. Again, just as it is now. Not to mention how much worse resource farming would be without them. I do wish they would turn Desecrate into either a channeled aura (so you could play the game while doing your 'job' as Nekros) or at least a toggle (so you can continue to do your 'job' without pressing 3 north of 3000 times an hour).

 

 

 

Meanwhile, "I'm not in a Desecrate build" leads to angry rants from people who feel entitled to what you offer because "Nekros" is synonymous with "Desecrate". It's not because it's an augment either; you'll get a similar response (albeit more muted by comparison) from people who expect you to be in Greedy Pull or Total Eclipse build.

 

To be fair, from a team perspective. Soul Punch does nothing, any CC frame can outdo Terrify, Shadows are as often as not just annoying to have clogging up your screen forever. Desecrate is the only reason you were asked to bring Nekros. It's like asking for a Frost for defense and getting one that's not using a Globe build. I'm not saying you can't build him another way and be effective, but 5 of your 8 mod slots are decided for you if someone is asking you to play Nekros. You can use the other 3 to make a relatively balanced build, or even just run a full on normal Desecrate build. Soul Punch is still just for lulz either way, and Terrify/Shadows can cover you in a pinch if you need them to even with a Desecrate build. In this situation, you were asked to fill the job of creating more loot/air directly when asked to play Nekros, and anything outside of that is a bit rude IMO. However, this is no different than any other situation when you are asked to bring a certain frame. Avalanche spam might be cool, but we want your Snow Globe. Null Star looks and sounds neat, but we asked you here for M Prime. Being invisible is fun, but we need RB spam etc etc. Nekros has Desecrate.

 

If you're using him for something other than survival/farming, it's a bit of an oddity to see but that's a whole different story, run whatever you want!

Edited June 27, 2015 by Racter0325

[Archwizard]

Desecrate is the only reason you were asked to bring Nekros. It's like asking for a Frost for defense and getting one that's not using a Globe build.

Null Star looks and sounds neat, but we asked you here for M Prime. Being invisible is fun, but we need RB spam etc etc.

 

If you're using him for something other than survival/farming, it's a bit of an oddity to see but that's a whole different story, run whatever you want!

 

I'm not talking about matches where I was asked to play Nekros - I understand the frustration of someone being brought into a match in the expectation they'll play a role that only they didn't realize they were.

 

I talk about the ones where I chose to Nekros without prompting - the reason I don't do so often.

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

1) Your comparisons are sith... How can you compare 3 center cast abilities to a targeted ability?  if you had compared Tentacles to Cataclysm or to Tempest Barrage, it would have made more sense.

 

2) You say your Hydroid is unmodded? My Hydroid does that with Stretch or Overextended. It doesnt do that without them.

 

3) Why did you turn off the Hud? Its extremely difficult to see where you targeted it to be cast.

 

4) I'm not disagreeing Hydroid needs tweaks, but seriously, these half arsed testing/comparison attempts, really need to stop.(Talking to the community as a whole).

 

5) The lil bit of "solution" you propose seems interesting.

Ill add this;

Tentacle Swarm should be a toggle on/off skill like Cataclysm. Able to be turned off and resummoned to another location.

Edited June 27, 2015 by (XB1)LordPuck

[Dillon_J]

yea there is a lot of abilities and augs like pilfering that just turn players into tools which completely ruins the game. Especially the recruiting tab.

[Paradoxbomb]

The targeting on Tentacle Swarm is definitely off, I've tried using it in the Void once only to have half the tentacles end up on the ceiling (why is that even possible?) But more importantly the tentacles need to be able to reach out and grab stuff. Right now the bulk of the damage seems to come from lucking out and having them pop up under enemies, after which any new enemies have to walk directly on top of them just to deal damage. Make these thing actually reach out and grab people, give them massive slam attacks and radial swipes that can knock over entire groups, maybe even have them toss enemies around like projectiles at other enemies. This is a freakin' Kraken were summoning here, it should way more impressive than a bunch of pathetic and useless tentacles flailing around aimlessly like a fish (squid) out of water. Also reallocate the damage a bit so that the majority of it doesn't come from the initial cast so the tentacles actually feel worth setting up on the battlefield. I also see no reason why it can't be recasted, especially how sporadic the ability itself is.

 

As for Pilfering Swarm, I believe it should be changed so that the tentacles only need to contribute to damaging the enemies rather than dealing the final blow. The reason for this is that it means that Hydroid's ult is more beneficial to spam against low-level enemies when the player should be able to (encouraged in fact) to use their skills against high-level content. It also doesn't synergize well with teammates, as you basically have to kill-steal to make sure your tentacles are the ones that kill them. If PS was changed so that the tentacles need only damage the enemy, the rest of the team can actually participate in the carnage without compromising the loot acquisition. Not to mention modding for max strength and efficiency is a must with the current system, which means you have to gimp his other skills.

 

 

TL;DR: Tentacle Swarm needs:

-Better spawning

-Tentacles should be able to reach out, grab enemies, perform AoE melee attacks, etc.

-Tentacles themselves should deal more damage as oppose to the initial cast dealing the bulk of the damage

-Should be recastable (removing the previous instance of course)

-Pilfering Swarm should only have to contribute to damaging the enemy, rather than deal the killing blow

-EDIT: Maybe a visual update too, to make them a little more menacing looking?

Edited June 27, 2015 by Paradoxbomb

[Juebev]

-snip-

 

 

I like the concept of Tentacle swarm but the the way it is right now is pretty terrible. As far as desecrate and survival there has been plenty of times I've been able to go way past the 30min mark without a nekros and I've seen others on the forums do the same as such. I understand what you are saying but honestly there shouldn't be an oddity for using Nekros for something other than survival or farming but unfortunately there is. Having any frame only associated and used only for one ability that deals with loot is really bad, hence why I brought up Nekros. Your idea was great and something I've always had in mind but never really talked about in detail, toggle'd Aura sounds better than pressing 3 a million times an hour and that isn't fun at all. I know the whole subject of desecrate is a touchy subject but I really only brought it up as an example on why tentacle swarm is utterly horrible right now.

 

 

-snip-

 

I'm going to to say this has respectfully as I can because I don't think you understand whats going on here and apparently the only guy in this thread that missed the point entirely.

 

This discussion and the point of the gifs are about consistency not what kind of abilities they are. I've been playing Hydroid for a ridiculously long time and I was quite serious when I made this thread and I appreciate it if you don't belittle my efforts saying my experience is "half-arsed". I plainly stated this isn't about making his ability toggle-able nor do I support more  spam for an unreliable ability that can be reworked into something more creative.

 

All of my frames were unmodded when I created those gifs and its pretty obvious where I'm casting those abilities. I'd appreciate it if you kept the hostile tone out of the thread.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Juebev

[Ronyn]

consistency - because when you press four you know what to expect.

 

Hydroid

 

Note: As you can already tell from the gif, Tentacle swarm is inconsistent and derpy. Mods only barely make this power salvageable and even then its situational. Hydroid is not a damage dealer and this isn't about giving him buffs,making Tentacle Swarm Toggle-able or trying to make to make him more viable in situations that depend more on skill than on abilities. Hydroid is summoning a creature and should behave intelligently as such and there are many creative ways this can be reworked.

I agree with all of that except one part. Who said Hydroid is not a damage dealer?

Tenticale swarm would actually be pretty hard hitting if it would just hit the enemies when you use it!

 

 

TL;DR: Tentacle Swarm needs:

-Better spawning

-Tentacles should be able to reach out, grab enemies, perform AoE melee attacks, etc.

-Tentacles themselves should deal more damage as oppose to the initial cast dealing the bulk of the damage

-Should be recastable (removing the previous instance of course)

-Pilfering Swarm should only have to contribute to damaging the enemy, rather than deal the killing blow

-EDIT: Maybe a visual update too, to make them a little more menacing looking?

Also good points.

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

You missed my point. I know you want TS to be better.

I know the targetting is off. Thats why I mentioned TB and Cataclysm. Fire Blast and Sotd are off as well, but you didnt seem to show those as part of your comparison to "bad targetting"....... 

 

This is why I said your comparisons are sith. Maybe if you looked at all aspects, you wouldnt say, to me "Youre the only one in this thread who missed the point"........

 

 

Agreed, maybe sith wasnt the "polite" word to use, but it was the "right" word, to me.

Edited June 27, 2015 by (XB1)LordPuck

[Juebev]

-snip-

 

Again,

This isn't about comparisons its about consistency something others in this thread have notice Tentacle Swarm lacks. Its not nessary for me to show those abilties because Cataclysm and Shadows of the Dead are more consistent than Tentacle swarm, that is the point I'm trying getting across.

 

 I see no reason to repeat myself if you aren't going to take the time to understand whats going on here.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Juebev

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

Again,

This isn't about comparisons its about consistency something others in this thread have notice Tentacle Swarm lacks. Its not nessary for me to show those abilties because Cataclysm and Shadows of the Dead are more consistent than Tentacle swarm, that is the point I'm trying getting across.

 

 I see no reason to repeat myself if you aren't going to take the time to understand whats going on here.

...................

 

 

 

Constitincey-------

You mean being able to target TS where you want instead of random Tentcles.

You mean being able to use other powers while in Undertow.

You mean being able to recast TS as soon as it gets nullified. You know, so it doesnt still have a countdown, like Nekros, sotd.

 

 

Nope...... I have no idea what constiency youre referring too........

[Juebev]

...................

 

Your opinion is noted.

[srlhama]

Make Desecrate an aura that you press 3 and everytime nekros kill it provides a 100% chance to desecrate the body and 80% to roll rng, and 20% to roll RNGesus one more time, or an time ability with no effect from rang only duration, this will make SOTD builds more hybrid...

For captain Loot( sorry for the bad joke, I tried :v ) my only problem is the enemy detection of the tentacles spawn, and make it lach on enemies and slam they on the ground an change the magnetic damage, it dont make sense.

Make it look like real tentacles not a bunch of water worms (I know you are thinking in other thing...your pervert) that are under effect of ecstasy after 24 hours of an eletronic party...

[----Fenrir----]

Just use narrow minded to reduce power range and the tentacles will spawn in a much smaller area = problem solved. They will still deal almost no damage and remain only useful to farm low level mobs for loot with the syndicate mod, yet at least they spawn where you want them to.

Edited June 27, 2015 by ----Fenrir----

[Juebev]

Just use narrow minded to reduce power range and the tentacles will spawn in a much smaller area = problem solved.

 

Not even close.

I know how to mod Hydroid and that doesn't really solve anything. Narrowminded only makes Tentacle Swarm barely salvageable and even then they are extremely inconsistent which is the actual problem. 

 

I also made it quite clear where I stand with Pilfering swarm, and stated that it is something I do not wish to participate in nor have I ever.

 

The current implementation needs to be reworked into something more intelligent and fitting of an reliable ultimate.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Juebev

[----Fenrir----]

I know that it sucks as far as ultimates go. Yet I'm sure Volt would trade his fourth skill immediately for the tentacles which at least have some limited uses (farming and CC).

[(PSN)Kish_Lat]

Make this now [Volt] The worse ultimate in the game

[Juebev]

I know that it sucks as far as ultimates go. Yet I'm sure Volt would trade his fourth skill immediately for the tentacles which at least have some limited uses (farming and CC).

 

Distribution of resources need to be redone in a way that compliments a fast-paced shooter, this is not achieved by pressing the same button for several hours straight in a corner. I never said Volt's ultimate was perfect, we all know a few frames that need their ultimate's tweaked but this isn't about those technicalities - this subject is about Tentacle Swarm lacking consistency something you and I agree with.

 

I do not care about nor consider farming as valid way to play Hydroid and I refuse to touch that mod or playstyle for him. I wouldn't have a huge problem with Plifering swarm if  his Ultimate wasn't so sloppy and if spam farming was actually abolished from warframe. 

[Archwizard]

- Tempest Barrage is one-handed and can be recast while active. If overlayed on Undertow, Tempest Barrage can damage foes within the puddle.

- Tidal Surge collects and continuously pushes enemies caught in it for the remainder of the duration, only releasing and ragdolling them during the Slash portion. Can be cast while Undertow is active to relocate the puddle and all enemies inside.

-Undertow removes collision for enemies that wander into the pool. Other abilities may be cast while active.

 

... Wait a second...

 

His other abilities, I'm satisfied with though there is a thread with changes satisfactory suggestions as well (except for Tentacle Swarm which needs to be reworked) I will put Hydroids suggestions in Italic from the link below.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/198866-retune-all-the-frames-612-limbo-revisited/

 

Ah.

 

Well you'll be happy to know I've since updated the section concerning Tentacle Swarm.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Archwizard