July 3Rd: Community Hot Topics!

[[DE]Drew]

Greedy Pull:

Greedy Pull has been showing up all over the place as a hot topic. The source threads for this topic cover it extensively. Since I started compiling these topics, some new information has been posted. The latest information can be found here. In light of this new information, what are your current thoughts on Greedy Pull? Is there anything else you’d change? Do you foresee any other issues? 

 

Source threads:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/483519-if-de-nerfs-greedy-pull-then-you-may-as-well-deprecate-mag-as-well-as-prime-mag/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/482554-greedy-pull-should-only-work-on-metals/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/484081-greedy-pull/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/483725-a-very-very-easy-solution-to-the-mesa-gp-problem/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/481672-if-greedy-pull-gets-nerfed-well-just-use-ev-trin/

 

 

Frost Rework:

Now that Excalibur’s rework is out on PC and coming soon to consoles, Frost is next in line for a rework. In case you missed the details, here’s an excerpt from the last Devstream:

Ice Wave now extends out from Frost in a cone.

Enemies frozen mid-air will now fall and (potentially) smash on the ground.

Enemies that survive Avalanche will now have their armor 'broken', making them vulnerable to future attacks.

Snow Globe will repel enemies that step inside.

Freeze can hit the floor and create pocket of cold, slowing enemy movement.

Frost's passive will give enemies chance of being frozen when melee attacking Frost.

Or, here’s a recap by Darkfreack:

https://youtu.be/eS1VXkmptsc?t=9m39s

 

These changes are still a work in progress, but what is your opinion so far? Is there anything you’d change or do differently? 

 

Source thread:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/483517-what-the-frost-rework-could-have-been-but-will-be/

 

 

Conclave, Movement, & Parkour 2.0:

We’ve had a few hot topics that reference “Parkour 2.0”, but this one is about the present and future of Conclave and how it is affected by movement. The source thread discusses the difficulty in targeting players as they fling and copter across the map. Do you think movement is too fast in Conclave? Are there specific movement mechanics that you like or dislike in Conclave? How do you think Parkour 2.0 will affect conclave matches? Are you looking forward to the changes? 

 

Source thread:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/483252-bat-out-of-hell/

 

 

New Corrupted Mods:

When we discussed balance in the last Community Hot Topics, Corrupted Mods were voted one of the best balanced aspects of Warframe. The source thread by PUR3K1LL3R, suggests some new Corrupted Mods to round out the currently available options. If you were to create new Corrupted Mods, what would you make? What stats would they modify? Are there any Corrupted stat combinations that you think would be too powerful? Would you make any changes to the current Corrupted Mods? 

 

Source thread:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/483154-more-corrupted-mods/

 

[Cyborg-Rox]

Yesh, finally. 11 minutes past midnight here.

 

Greedy Pull's changes will undoubtedly hurt a lot of meta farmers, but now it will actually work like it was meant to, to be greedy.

Frost's changes look really promising, and I can't wait to try them c:

Not a PvPer...

Oh god yes, corrupted mods! There's so many different stats with potential for corrupted and nightmare mods alike! Why have Warframe corrupted mods only for powers?

Edited July 3, 2015 by Cyborg-Rox

[AlphaHorseman]

Greedy Pull:

 

The thing about Greedy Pull is that it's a symptom to the problem, not the core of it. The reason why people resort to that kind of farming is because of the Grind Walls put in place against us. It isn't just the grind, as games that have grind sometimes can manage it well. It's the Grind Walls, Time Walls, RNG Walls, and all the other walls that you put in place for us to try and vault over. When players see all the walls placed before them to try and get through/over, they're not going to be happy and play the game throughout various missions, they're going to find the quickest route to overcome the immeasurable walls placed before them.

 

You want players to play the game and be interactive, actually incentivize them by making playing the game not an endless grind, but an enjoyable experience that is rewarding to them. Don't hide the rewards behind obtrusive and oppressive walls (I'M LOOKING AT YOU, MESA GRIND WALL!), make the acquisition process of obtaining something in the game actually enjoyable and fun! Quests were a great start, they added tidbits of lore, even if the missions were the exact same that we experience throughout the game (this needs to be addressed as well), all until you threw everything behind a wait wall.

 

Then came the introduction of more mods to grind and get cores for. How do you think players are going to respond to the even more so massive grind you threw in their faces? They're going to do everything in their power to try and overcome that grind wall and make the acquisition process easier for them to overcome. Nerfing the availability of the cores wasn't the solution either, as now players are more so pushed into these tactics to try and gain sufficient supplies to level up the new mods that come in.

 

Do you really think players enjoy having to level something up after they polarize a slot with a forma? No. Having to go through all that grinding not just once, but multiple times will grate on a players' nerves. So when something like Greedy Pull comes along that can alleviate their frustrations, some players are going to resort to it. They're going to do all they can to try and get out of the rut you've placed them in, and that includes methods that you may not approve of.

 

If these problems were addressed in a more systematic way, then we wouldn't have to be talking about this. Now the problems I am referring to are the endless Grind and absurdly weighted RNG that WarFrame has, that's what needs to be fixed to be more fair to the players. To be more rewarding to those who continue to play the game, to those who stay in a mission nearly for an hour trying to get that one part only to have the weighted RNG not give them a good chance of getting it. The weighted RNG is a massive issue that infuriates players, it does not help with the experience. (I'M LOOKING AT YOU! SHELDON!)

 

Don't nerf the tools the players use, actually make the experience of playing the game more enjoyable so that the players are more exploring in their gameplays, rather than just finding the fastest way to overcome the massive grind walls you place before them.

 

Treat the core of the problem, not the symptoms of it, nor the ways players try to cure that core issue. That core is the insane amount of Walls placed before the players, it doesn't incentivize them to buy plat to overcome it, it tells them to find another game for them to enjoy. It's a simply psychological obstacle, and overlooking it will just create more problems in the future.

 

Edit: People will just resort to other tactics to get the rewards, and whatever DE does to the tools, it won't change that mentality. But, if they actually treat the core issue, which is the insurmountable grind, then things can actually improve.

 

Edit: Dang it it cut my response. Retyping it now!

 

Frost Rework:

 

Some Armor Buffs and the Prime Buffs would be good!

 

I have to preface this by saying that all powers should be scale able outright, without need of an augment making a power scale able and useful.

 

Freeze:

The incoming Frost changes give some good scale ability to powers like Freeze, what with the traps now usable in all levels of content to the same level of efficacy, if used creatively by the player.

 

Ice Wave:

Ice Waves changes are interesting, and do help to ensure that the power is a strong offensive ability, how this plays into his defensive capabilities is yet to be seen,

 

Snow Globe:

For Snow Globe, I do enjoy the changes incoming for the ability, however, the limitation to four active globes does not give an indicator on how we will be seeing any globe HP or visual indication of globe health, how it interacts with the stacking globe health, and what has been done to help visibility while within Snow Globe. Not to mention we have no indication as to whether or not AoE attacks like Bombard Missiles or Stomp MOA blasts will finally be stopped by Snow Globe.

 

Another mechanical change to Snow Globe to give it some scale ability without needing to spam would be having the Casting Frosts armor value be applied to the HP of the globe, rather than stacked onto it. Thus, a maxed armor/power strength Frost now has a very strong Snow Globe with an EHP far better than before. The need for spamming the skill isn't as high, as now it has better HP to deal with incoming damage. Although, maybe giving its baseline health a slight boost as well, along with applying armor, would help as well. Allowing players with Punch Through weapons to shoot through the globe would be useful too, if players are outside of the globe dealing with other threats.

 

Aesthetically, removing the Snow Storm running rampant within the globe, and replacing it with actually falling snow would go a long way into making visibility within a globe better. Players wouldn't have to mod for Black energy colors just to get a clear view of the enemy. Also, showing visual damage to the globe in the form of cracking can help players identify when the Globe is under heavy fire. Having an audible "shatter" sound when the Globe goes down also gives an audio cue to all players that the globe has fallen, and the area is vulnerable.

 

UI wise, allowing players to aim at a globe and having an HP value/bar pop up showing the Globes current health would be very useful, as players can gauge how long before the globe falls and the area it was in becomes vulnerable. Also, giving the Casting Frost a location of Globes cast and their HP levels allows them to identify where they need to return to an area to recast the globe or deal with threats.

 

Thus, Snow Globe now becomes a very useful ward, but Frost isn't tied to it for his usefulness. It's a good skill that can stand alone, but not a skill that automatically pushes Frost players on babysitting duty.

 

Avalanche:

Avalanches incoming changes are interesting, and can be useful throughout the game thanks to the Ice Explosions helping with lower level scale ability, while the armor reduction working to ensure it's scale able into higher content. However, just like the Greedy Pull issue, I feel that the armor reduction issue is acting on a symptom, not the problem itself.

 

It ties into enemy armor scaling in WarFrame. It makes the only really viable aura to use in higher content Corrosive Projection, as it eliminates the insane scaling that enemy armor has. The problem here is how enemies scale solely through armor, and insanely rapid paced at that. The symptom is the requirement of Corrosive Projection in order to go far in higher level content. If our enemies actually scaled outside of just being bullet sponges that eventually have the potential to one shot you, there could be more variety in higher level content than just required CP and enemy armor reduction.

 

To give some examples:

Grineer Scorpions:

Level 1-10 Scorpions is what we have now.

 

Level 11-20 Scorpions are able to block bullets/roll out of the way of incoming skillshot/ranged abilities and bullets.

 

Level 21-30 Scorpions now have a stance for their Machete to better utilize their weapon.

 

Level 31-40 Scorpions have the ability to shoot their grappling hooks into terrain, thus allowing them to use the environment vertically and fly around/across the battlefield. This could also allow them to resist knockback effects by shooting their grappling hooks into the ground to resist it. Or avoid such abilities completely by grapple hooking out of the way of the incoming ability.

 

Level 41-50+ Scorpions attain wall-running abilities similar to how we can, so that they can utilize terrain with more than just their hooks, and gives them a more interesting dimension.

 

Thus, we have challenge from content that is not just a rehash of the content that we have, but an expansion of this content by giving content better mechanics as their levels go up.

 

Veteran players actually face a challenge, rather than just more bullet sponges. We have a greater dynamic in end-game, and our enemies become far more interesting to fight

Grineer Heavy Gunners:

Levels 1-20 is how we see them now. To ensure that beginner players and lower planet content aren't too overwhelmed.

 

Levels 21-30 gives them the ability to use their AoE ability to stop knock back abilities. Thus giving Heavy Gunners the ability to resist some CC, but also use current assets for an expanded function.

 

Levels 31-40 allows them to deploy a stationary shield (much like the Grineer Shield Lancer) to use as a defensive measure. With this defensive measure added, the Heavy Gunners can better pose a threat to us as a "heavy unit" on the field, outside of a health stat/armor increase.

 

Levels 41-50 provides them the use of a secondary weapon/melee weapon (stance added). Holstered, of course, but usable weapons should the AI decide to spice up the weapon variety and fight us with more than just a regular gun. Adding in a melee weapon also creates some interesting situations in close ranged combat, or when enemies are disarmed.

 

Levels 51+ gives them the ability to dual wield a Melee and a primary/secondary. Essentially approaching the end-tier of Raids, this change makes heavy gunners a clear threat on the battlefield, and something that players should deal with quickly. They become a force to be reckoned with, but one that can still be overcome.

Grineer Commander:

Levels 1-10 gives them the ability to use a Command ability to empower nearby allies. As a commanding unit on the battlefield, this helps to increase the effectiveness of the commander, and fits his role aesthetically.

 

Levels 11-20 allows the Grineer Commander to teleport a group of allied units with him upon utilizing his teleportation ability. Essentially becoming a squad leader, the commander can now better fit his role as the head unit.

 

Levels 21-30 The Command ability now has a chance to remove procs placed on allied units. Adding in this change allows the Commander to assist the squad with removing debuffs.

 

Levels 31-40 gives the Grineer Commander heavier armor, and allows the Command ability to have a chance of increasing the level of allied units in the area. Grineer Commanders now also have a melee weapon on their person.

 

Levels 41-50+ Commanders have an additional melee weapon and can deploy a Grineer Regulator. Used in synergy, they can create very difficult situations for Tenno to deal with.

 

These changes help to make the Grineer Commander an actual Commander on the battlefield. Leading his troops and heading the charge against foes.

Grineer Regulator:

Levels 1-10 Regulators emit a pulse every 10 seconds that has a chance to knock down enemy units. Providing a bit of CC to the Grineer, the Regulators use now expands outside of just an enemy damage buff and UI jammer.

 

Levels 11-20 Regulators increase the buffs given to allied units. Regulators are  also equipped with shields similar to the Grineer Shield Lancer to provide extra defense on the battlefield.

 

Levels 21-30 Regulators have a chance to remove the procs applied to allied units upon its pulse. Pulse intervals are reduced to 8 seconds.

 

Levels 31-40 Regulators can now move freely through the battlefield and can utilize a short ranged teleport to escape/reposition every 10 seconds.

 

Levels 41-50+ have Regulators with increased speed, and pulse intervals are reduced to 5 seconds, with increased radius.

 

These changes help to make the Regulator a more useful unit on the battlefield, and helps them to become a very strong support to the allies around it. Rather than just a damage increase and enemy UI jammer, it now becomes something that Tenno can audibly hear and prioritize on the battlefield.

 

Corrupted Mods:

 

Sure!

Edited July 7, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[Gravefire]

RIP Greedy Pull. aka loot pull.

[Zaniux]

The big amount of grind required to get/level stuff is the biggest problem, not greedy pull.

 

Also, Frost should get a bit more of movement speed and Avalanche should leave surviving enemies with a cold proc by default.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Zaniux

[tocorro]

Greedy pull

Nerfing greedy pull won't solve anything. Remember Viver ? Did that make a difference ? Players will find other way. They always do. You will just have to keep nerfing every single solution they'll come up with. Or You may start thinking about fixing they real problem, not just it's symptoms.

After the nerf Mag probably will end up in the dumpster once again. Poor mag.

 

Frost

Finally some love for Frosty.

 

Parkour 2.0 and Conclave

Don't forget to do something with Grineer hit-scan weapons, accuracy and their numbers, since You are taking the advantage of speed from us, adjust the enemy accordingly. Couldn't care less abut PvP. This is PvE game for me.

 

Corrupted mods

Yes please. But something interesting.

Edited July 3, 2015 by tocorro

[Mr_bunny]

The Frost changes look awesome but I would love if his 4 did something more interesting. AoE dmg and armor debuff sounds boring to be honest. Would be really pleased if you guys went and did something crazy with his 4 like you did with Excalibur's 4. You could for example give him a toggled blizzard that follows him around and slows enemies. For example.

On a brighter side his 2 and 3 are looking much better.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Mr_bunny

[Valiant]

Does seem as if DE are slightly missing the point yet again in their actions with Mag.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Naith

[Mcl_Blue]

Greedy Pull:

I like this solution, as it satisfactorily nerfs the "rep farm" aspect of the augment, without changing it's functionality for the actual user.

 

Frost Rework:

Sounds really exciting so far! I'm a bit disappointed that Frost's passive doesn't include elemental resistance, but his current proposed passive is good too. Still, I really would like it if DE considered elemental resistances for all elemental frames. If nothing else, make it so Frost is immune to the slowdown caused by the "Void-ice", he's already so slow by default after all. Speaking of slow, I'd love for his speed to be buffed, even if it's just by 0.1.

[Censium]

Greedy Pull

 

I don't think this is strong enough at all. I would move it to a Sheild Aura augment, that makes it so when Mag walks by drops, they hove around her, much like carrier. That way you don't have to stand in one place and press 1 constantly, instead you have to run around, and be quick enough/smart enough to not die while doing so in the later missions

[kubbi]

1 - Nerfing greedy pull wont solve anything. Remember Viver ? Did that make a difference ? Players will find other way. They always do. You will just have to keep nerfing every single solution they'll come up with. Or You may start thinking about fixing they real problem, not just it's symptoms.

After the nerf Mag probably will end up in the dumpster once again. Poor mag.

 

I agree nerfing greedy pull won't change anything. Though I don't see a reason why because of that she should end up in the dumpster. All of Mags abilities are usefull depending on what you're playing. If people dump her because GP is nerfed then they never knew her potentional and how to actually use her.

[Dillon_J]

If you could make the first question have more clarity that would be nice. i assume you mean the upcoming changes listed by DE_Adam but the question doesnt state it very well.

[Zaniux]

If people dump her because GP is nerfed then they never knew her potentional and how to actually use her.

This^.

People need to understand that Mag is much more than Greedy Pull.

[Kutsus]

I like Frost's changes, altho you did not list them properly, Snow Globe will repel and freeze enemies that are within the Globe's range on the cast, it wont repel new enemies that enter it, unless it has changed since the devstream? In the devstream build, enemies kill by Avalanche also created cold explosions, and Freeze seemed to have an upgrade cold dmg aoe on impact, and they also mentioned that enemies will actually stay frozen after being hit by freeze and getting shot.

Also Frost is already the overall best high level/endgame frame, and this "rework" is actually just a bunch of straight buffs, he will be the one and only best chocie for defending players/objectives, which he already is, but he'll be way better now. So like, OP, but not OP in a bad way.

[Katinka]

I've said 'other' for Greedy Pull as there is no option to say 'Planned changes go too far.' or 'This is treating the symptom, not the cause.'.

[PsiWarp]

In light of DE's Greedy Pull proposal (only Mag can pull her share of pickups), please consider also making resources and mods similar to credits, where one player picking them up distributes the resources and mods to the whole squad.

 

Ammo, Health and Energy Orbs remain client-side (each player has their own instance of those pickups, like how it is now), so with DE's Greedy Pull change, Mag cannot pull her allies' share. This way, Mag can still collect the needed resources and mods for her squad, while not continue to contribute to the stand-in-place-and-spam-abilities setups made for Draco and the like.

 

Players that dislike Greedy Mags moving their ammo, health, and energy around when they need them most, like a Nekros making a Health Orb safety net, can relax and not be annoyed.

 

This also makes it so the player experience is more fluid, as one player discovering a rare resource or mod means the whole team gets it. They can focus on returning to combat and have fun without needing to backtrack for loots, but having ammo, health and energy scattered about also promotes run & gun play as we know it.

Edited July 3, 2015 by PsiWarp

[BrazilianJoe]

GREEDY PULL:

 

While the nerf is necessary, it hits too hard on the mod utility, slam-dunking it to the bottom of the garbage-pile class of augments. 

 

To bring it up to become equip-worthy, I'd have it give + 5%/10%/15%/20% ammo/health/energy on picked up items (NOT on resources though).

[Ognj]

Oh god, you are thinking to add more corrupted mods? Most if not all of them breaks the game to such a point that we have Greedy mag's and Miasma Saryns, and Javelin excals.

[tocorro]

I agree nerfing greedy pull won't change anything. Though I don't see a reason why because of that she should end up in the dumpster. All of Mags abilities are usefull depending on what you're playing. If people dump her because GP is nerfed then they never knew her potentional and how to actually use her.

 

I agree that she can stand by her own. Yet don't forget that in the moment GP will get a nerf no one (or almost no one) will want a Mag in the team. They'll find another way of farming and stick to it. If there will be no one wanting her in the chat... well simple supply and demand rule :)

[Katinka]

In light of DE's Greedy Pull proposal (only Mag can pull her share of pickups), please consider also making resources and mods similar to credits, where one player picking them up distributes the resources and mods to the whole squad.

 

That would be a great change to the game as a whole and would especially benefit Archwing with the Limbo Theorem Fragments, Tellurium and mods that fly 18km away for clients.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Katinka

[(NSW)BlaineKodos]

The two things I'd like to provide extra input on beyond just voting are thus:

 

Frost's changes:

While I'm mostly on board with Frost getting stuff, I feel like the Freeze changes are not really what the ability needs. I like to use Freeze Force, because I run a duration build (at least now, this will probably change to a ranged build after the changes go live) but it's very hard to actually hit an ally with. I'd appreciate if it were instead hitscan and just froze a target at range or something. Ember's Fireball could also benefit from it. I like buff augments, but it's very hard to hit in a game as fast-paced and mobile at Warframe.

 

Ice Wave's change makes me a happy Tenno. That is all.

 

Corrupted mods:

I'm on board with new ones, though a problem exists of there being so many new ones that old ones which many people want multiples of at different levels too hard to find now. I'm not sure how to really fix that issue, but I'd like to be on record saying it is in fact an issue. I wish I had a suggestion for it, but I simply do not.

[Halser]

I've said 'other' for Greedy Pull as there is no option to say 'Planned changes go too far.' or 'This is treating the symptom, not the cause.'.

yeah, the question is worded in a way that there's only two options:

 

'yes'

or

'please nerf mag even further, somehow'

[Djangofett]

 Making the loot only available for mag will make it obsolete and maybe entirely superfluous. Wouldn't It would be better to just not give it 100% loot pull chance?

[tris1]

frost changes still need work: like his 4th should a duration based freeze and his first should freeze the main target and slows those around that target or freeze all targets around that target

[Ninjamander]

In light of DE's Greedy Pull proposal (only Mag can pull her share of pickups), please consider also making resources and mods similar to credits, where one player picking them up distributes the resources and mods to the whole squad.

 

Ammo, Health and Energy Orbs remain client-side (each player has their own instance of those pickups, like how it is now), so with DE's Greedy Pull change, Mag cannot pull her allies' share. This way, Mag can still collect the needed resources and mods for her squad, while not continue to contribute to the stand-in-place-and-spam-abilities setups made for Draco and the like.

 

Players that dislike Greedy Mags moving their ammo, health, and energy around when they need them most, like a Nekros making a Health Orb safety net, can relax and not be annoyed.

 

This also makes it so the player experience is more fluid, as one player discovering a rare resource or mod means the whole team gets it. They can focus on returning to combat and have fun without needing to backtrack for loots, but having ammo, health and energy scattered about also promotes run & gun play as we know it.

+1 perfect tweak for greedy pull. If DE don't revise they gp nerf, they literally remove some coop aspect in a coop game =/...

 

about frost (he use to be my main), my only issue is his bubble. I would prefer to see some armor rate on his bubble so the ability would scale better on high level mission instead of those plan change, other then that, those tweak will help him!

Edited July 3, 2015 by Ninjamander