Party-Buff Builds "squad Damage"

[BubblesTheBlob]

I'm trying to compile some data about the ways augment buffs and Warframe ability buffs can be stacked to extreme heights to create absurd damage numbers with Warframe abilities (like Peacemaker, Sound Quake, and potentially more), but I'm still getting caught on the order buffs apply. I'm mostly wanting to make sure I'm doing this correctly before I go much further with this as it's something I enjoy working on.

 

Note that Base Damage is the only one I calculate without max strength (seeing as high-efficiency builds and high-range builds are often necessary), but that I also calculate it with max strength anyways later on. All buffs are at max power strength (which is great for me as a Frost Prime main as that's 299% Strength, the highest in the game). I round to the nearest 0.1 decimal point.

 

So far, I've done my calculations with the ordering of buffs/damage as follows:

 

1. Base Damage. Affected (for the most part) directly by power strength.

 

2. Elemental Augments. Affected by Power Strength of the buffing Warframe (max varies based on frame as 2 augment buffs can have Arcane helmets apply to their strength). This is based on the Base Damage and adds directly to it (i.e. +299% Freeze Force would turn 100 Slash into 100 Slash + 299 Cold). These also apply like mods, so they only stack additively (i.e. +299% Freeze Force and +284% Venom Dose would make +583% Viral).

 

3. Pure Damage Buffs. Mirage and Rhino apply these. I'm pretty sure these affect Elemental Augments as well as Base Damage because one is based off the other (i.e. +142% Rhino Roar would turn the example above (100 Slash + 299 Cold) into 242 Slash + 723.6 Cold). This would only change if Rhino's or Mirage's buffs did not apply at all to the Augments and they were based off previous base damage, which I find unlikely, or if the buffs multiplied on each other.

 

4. On-Hit Buffs. Nova and Banshee apply these. After the weapon's damage is calculated, it then gets buffed by the target's latent effects (i.e. Molecular Primed targets taking 2x damage). These stack multiplicatively as they are applied separately from one another (i.e. Sonar spots giving 1420% more damage to hits there, then being doubled by Molecular Prime). This (both effects) would turn the above situation (242 Slash + 723.6 Cold) into 6872.8 Slash + 20550.2 Cold.

 

As you can see, at this point with just 4 Warframes, we've got an ability that had 100 damage to begin with (I looked it up and an unranked Ash Shuriken does 100 base slash) dealing 27423 raw damage (and if this was an Ash Shuriken, the slash would proc and deal 2405.5 Slash damage per tick for an extra 16838.5 Slash damage), so this could make for some pretty absurd party-builds. My main issue is that I'm not sure if all augments stack up like this (like how Element Augment buffs act somewhat similar to mods added after the current mod set and not straight buffs). I'm also pretty sure that Element Augments could (under my current understanding) be swapped with the Pure Damage Buffs and still return the same damage.

 

I have (using a spreadsheet) made a 4-frame party build called "Squad Damage" (I think I'm clever) that can buff Mesa's Peacemaker to deal upwards of ~1,000,000 damage on-crit with one shot without considering resistances, and that's without Shooting Gallery because the duration would be too short to use. This build uses an efficiency-build Mesa (185% strength for ~5000 base physical damage on-crit), and a max-strength Frost, Mirage, and Banshee, hitting a single Sonar spot.

 

TL;DR: We know the order that weapon mods apply, but augment buffs and ability buffs applying to abilities are a little hazy and I want to make sure I'm calculating this right. Any and all feedback is welcome.

Edited July 18, 2015 by MrBubbleSS

[UndeadGhostWarrior]

i think the second people know the actual numbers there will be cries for nerfing. so i'd rather not say anything...OP don't delve too deep ^^

[BubblesTheBlob]

i think the second people know the actual numbers there will be cries for nerfing. so i'd rather not say anything...OP don't delve too deep ^^

 

I've already gone too deep, I'm just wanting to know if I should keep digging or just be content with just my overpowered Mesa theory (though mostly if I'm using the right shovel). Besides, Elemental Augments already got their balance pass, so they probably won't get changed again (especially considering they only really stack to the nines when you use multiple), right?

 

I'm working currently on a Banshee Sound Quake "Squad Damage" build, and it's already shaping up pretty well despite not being able to benefit from Sonar. I even go so far as to calculate it with as many buffs as possible, even though having 9 frames (10 for Mesa because she has Banshee's Sonar) is impossible.

Edited July 18, 2015 by MrBubbleSS

[Autongnosis]

Are you sure Eclipse buffs ability damage? Afaik it doesn't.

Also, for example Shuriken: does it calculate the slash proc only on the base slash damage or also on the damage buff? Does it factor base damage buff other than power strenght? It should be tested.

[BubblesTheBlob]

Are you sure Eclipse buffs ability damage? Afaik it doesn't.

Also, for example Shuriken: does it calculate the slash proc only on the base slash damage or also on the damage buff? Does it factor base damage buff other than power strenght? It should be tested.

 

1. Yes. People have used it to buff Excal's Radial javelin back when he was king of Draco.

 

2. I used only the Slash damage for the proc, not the Cold damage (not related to question, just felt like putting it there as it was in the math I did). Slash procs deal damage (7 ticks over 6 seconds, 1/second, first tick being on the hit) based on how much Slash damage was present on the actual hit itself. Also, If a damage-over-time proc does less than 1 damage (if you hit for 3.3 or less, which can be done by early-game Lancers as well as basically anything that hits a well-built Chroma), it will always round up to 1.

 

For example, if you hit something with a single unranked, unmodded Shuriken (seeing as you throw 2), and it had an M-Prime on it (200 Slash on-hit at this point), but it also resists 50% of Slash damage (alloy armor on the Grineer does this before armor values are applied, so lets assume we have 4 Corrosive Projections, just to make this simple), you'd deal 100 damage initially (on-hit damage) with 35 damage per tick on the proc.

Edited July 18, 2015 by MrBubbleSS

[Autongnosis]

1. Yes. People have used it to buff Excal's Radial javelin back when he was king of Draco.

2. I used only the Slash damage for the proc, not the Cold damage (not related to question, just felt like putting it there as it was in the math I did). Slash procs deal damage (7 ticks over 6 seconds, 1/second, first tick being on the hit) based on how much Slash damage was present on the actual hit itself. Also, If a damage-over-time proc does less than 1 damage (if you hit for 3.3 or less, which can be done by early-game Lancers as well as basically anything that hits a well-built Chroma), it will always round up to 1.

For example, if you hit something with a single unranked, unmodded Shuriken (seeing as you throw 2), and it had an M-Prime on it (200 Slash on-hit at this point), but it also resists 50% of Slash damage (alloy armor on the Grineer does this before armor values are applied, so lets assume we have 4 Corrosive Projections, just to make this simple), you'd deal 100 damage initially (on-hit damage) with 35 damage per tick on the proc.

I didn't know about eclipse. Cool.

About shuriken: nope. The bleed is base off the nominal damage. Test it: a 100% power strenght shuriken (so no bonus) deals 500-armour reduction damage on the strike and always 175 damage per tick no matter the enemy type or level. I did test it against level 20-40-60-80 corrupted lancers, heavy gunners and bombards. Every one of them always got ticked for 175.

What i was asking was whether the bleed tick is based only on the base slash damage woth power strenght, on the buffed slash damage, or on the total damage (elemental damage included) which is something i never actually tested.

[BubblesTheBlob]

About shuriken: nope. The bleed is base off the nominal damage. Test it: a 100% power strenght shuriken (so no bonus) deals 500-armour reduction damage on the strike and always 175 damage per tick no matter the enemy type or level. I did test it against level 20-40-60-80 corrupted lancers, heavy gunners and bombards. Every one of them always got ticked for 175.

What i was asking was whether the bleed tick is based only on the base slash damage woth power strenght, on the buffed slash damage, or on the total damage (elemental damage included) which is something i never actually tested.

 

Nice to know this. I haven't tested it as thoroughly, but that's what bleed procs have been in my experience. I may need to test this when I get home (roughly an hour from now, so I hope I remember) to make sure, though. I'll see if I can get video evidence and make sure the wiki page knows this (as it may come in handy when doing in-depth DPS calculations). However, you do seem to take less damage from slash procs when on a high-armor frame (which means it's either based on on-hit damage and you're wrong or Shuriken is unique, which is also a possibility, considering you've tested the counter-point so thoroughly), so I really will need to test this.

 

As for power strength, yes, it is affected by it because it adds to the base Slash damage the proc is based on. 200% power Strength will make it deal 1000 Slash Base, and it would do 35% of that (350) per tick in slash-proc damage.

[Darzk]

1. Yes. People have used it to buff Excal's Radial javelin back when he was king of Draco.

You guys are both right, in a way. Total Eclipse only buffs ability damage that deals purely Impact, Puncture and Slash damage (AKA: "Abilities that use a weapon"). So it works for RJ and Mesa's Peacemaker, and probably Skuriken (haven't tested that) but it will *not* work on purely elemental abilities like Miasma, Stomp, or Soundquake.

 

Slash damage procs are totally unmitigated by armor; neither the final damage tick nor the damage number it's based on is reduced. Can't say why you experience 'less slash proc damage on frames with high armor' but I've never tested it from a damage received side, only damage dealt.

 

A slash proc's damage is based on the entire modified base; for Shruiken since that's purely Slash it's safe to say its based on the slash damage (pre modifiers). For other weapons tho, it's important to note that impact/puncture base present on the weapon does influence the proc damage, yet adding +IPS from mods does not.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Darzk

[Autongnosis]

You guys are both right, in a way. Total Eclipse only buffs ability damage that deals purely Impact, Puncture and Slash damage (AKA: "Abilities that use a weapon"). So it works for RJ and Mesa's Peacemaker, and probably Skuriken (haven't tested that) but it will *not* work on purely elemental abilities like Miasma, Stomp, or Soundquake.

 

Slash damage procs are totally unmitigated by armor; neither the final damage tick nor the damage number it's based on is reduced. Can't say why you experience 'less slash proc damage on frames with high armor' but I've never tested it from a damage received side, only damage dealt.

 

A slash proc's damage is based on the entire modified base; for Shruiken since that's purely Slash it's safe to say its based on the slash damage (pre modifiers). For other weapons tho, it's important to note that impact/puncture base present on the weapon does influence the proc damage, yet adding +IPS from mods does not.

Nice to know.

 

About slash procs, iirc they changed it for players only so that the procs would be reduced by armour for balance, to avoid any Grineer mission at level 30+ being impossible. Migh be wrong though.

 

 

On the third bit: oh, thanks. That about clears it - still should need some testing to see if it actually works as "expected"

[BubblesTheBlob]

You guys are both right, in a way. Total Eclipse only buffs ability damage that deals purely Impact, Puncture and Slash damage (AKA: "Abilities that use a weapon"). So it works for RJ and Mesa's Peacemaker, and probably Skuriken (haven't tested that) but it will *not* work on purely elemental abilities like Miasma, Stomp, or Soundquake.

 

Slash damage procs are totally unmitigated by armor; neither the final damage tick nor the damage number it's based on is reduced. Can't say why you experience 'less slash proc damage on frames with high armor' but I've never tested it from a damage received side, only damage dealt.

 

A slash proc's damage is based on the entire modified base; for Shruiken since that's purely Slash it's safe to say its based on the slash damage (pre modifiers). For other weapons tho, it's important to note that impact/puncture base present on the weapon does influence the proc damage, yet adding +IPS from mods does not.

 

So, TE only buffs abilities that do physical, but do the elemental augments buff based on that number (so TE applies first, then augment applies to modified value) or does it apply ex post facto to just the physical (making augments use the old value, before TE)? This is the main purpose of this thread.

[Autongnosis]

Well, if you want to test some of these things i've got an Ash, a Frost (and i can get Freeze Force) and a Mirage with Total Eclipse.

 

Might be useful to know how exactly buffs stack.

[BubblesTheBlob]

Well, if you want to test some of these things i've got an Ash, a Frost (and i can get Freeze Force) and a Mirage with Total Eclipse.

 

Might be useful to know how exactly buffs stack.

 

Think you could get on some time this afternoon (after 4 Mountain, 3 Pacific, 5 Central, 6 Eastern) so we can check? I spent most of yesterday in other games, so I didn't check the forums then. To test this with Ash, we might need a third (so I can be Ash to take footage of the damage), but I could probably manage that easily either from friends in Region or the TeamSpeak server I hang out on.