Something I've Noticed People Say Alot About Saryn's Ability Names

[Caobie]

So disregarding any mention of changes that can or should be proposed i simply wanted to make a thread to call to attention a thing or two ive noticed people say about the names of abilities on saryn. Specifically venom and contagion. A fair few people say the names should be swapped but i disagree and say the names are fine as is. Think about it with me for a moment. Saryn is not only a poison frame but a disease frame, all things toxin really considering she has the ability to do 3 of the 4 toxin based damages unaided. now to a point, contagion by definition is the spread of a disease by direct or indirect contact or a disease that is transmitted that way. Think about it. Saryn adds toxin damage to her melee weapon in order to what? spread disease and toxins. pretty sure it even says something to that effect in the ability description.

 

Meanwhile people also say venom should be renamed and again i disagree. It may take a small leap in logic for this but what happens at the site of common venomous creatures bites? they swell generally regardless of the type of toxin. Simply put the spores, as the game calls them, represent that swelling and (in sever cases) bursting from pressure. What bursts from that swollen mass is highly likely to be a combination of dead flesh and various other nasties that would be at the very least infectious and while in real life the rupture may not be violent bursting the idea is there and thats why i think the name of venom for her first ability is quite appropriate....though i would say spores is just a nicer way to put it cause the alternatives are off putting to say the least.

 

While i think this is accurate to what the devs had in mind when making the ability names until its said otherwise this is opinion and should be taken as such. thanks for your time reading this. :D

 

Edit: had a second thought on the title...didnt want to be misleading so i clarified.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Caobie

[RexRgisIocus]

Doesn't it make more sense that the spreading of spores be called Contagion since you are spreading a Virus (the spores proc viral) around?

 

And that coating your weapon in poison be called Venom?

 

I understand where you are coming from but it really makes more sense (at least to me) that the names be changed around.

[motorfirebox]

It doesn't make sense, though. If something is contagious, it spreads from person to person, it doesn't only spread from a single source. If something is venomous, it injects a single target with venom, it doesn't spread venom from target to target. If you get bit by a snake, you don't have to avoid other people in order to keep from poisoning them, because snake venom isn't contagious.

[RexRgisIocus]

It doesn't make sense, though. If something is contagious, it spreads from person to person, it doesn't only spread from a single source. If something is venomous, it injects a single target with venom, it doesn't spread venom from target to target. If you get bit by a snake, you don't have to avoid other people in order to keep from poisoning them, because snake venom isn't contagious.

 

Saryn's venom coated melee would be the snake here though. I can strike someone with it and that someone wont infect other targets. I have to manually hit every single target much like a single snake has to bite multiple people separately.

 

Meanwhile I put spores on a target, shoot it, and then the spores spread to more targets within its range. And with no target limit. Its more of a contagion than her 3rd ability.

 

I don't have to manually target each enemy and use her 1 for them to have spores. I just shoot the first target.

 

And besides, the rework most people want for it would be for spores to spread on death (I think it was like this when it first came out as well) which would reinforce the contagion part even more.

 

[CruelCrow]

Quick useful blurb: Venom is injected, poison is ingested.

That aside, sure, you could stretch the definitions that far to suit your needs. It still makes more sense to switch the names.

[Caobie]

Doesn't it make more sense that the spreading of spores be called Contagion since you are spreading a Virus (the spores proc viral) around?

 

And that coating your weapon in poison be called Venom?

 

I understand where you are coming from but it really makes more sense (at least to me) that the names be changed around.

to me the spores spreading is a side effect of the cause of the damage similar to my example of a severely swolen part bursting. thats really what the spores remind me of. giant puss filled sacs under pressure the contents of which are highly toxic and the sacs themselves are created by a reaction to some form of toxin that the ability inflicts

 

while the point of coating a weapon in poison is correct the ability description itself says 'transmitting disease and plague with each strike' so it isnt a poison despite the damage type being toxin....which i agree that maybe the damage types could switch reasonably but not the names due to the perceived function.

 

It doesn't make sense, though. If something is contagious, it spreads from person to person, it doesn't only spread from a single source. If something is venomous, it injects a single target with venom, it doesn't spread venom from target to target. If you get bit by a snake, you don't have to avoid other people in order to keep from poisoning them, because snake venom isn't contagious.

if something is contagious it is capable of transmission in any form. in this case an 'infected' blade that saryn is swinging. and like i said earlier the initial target is struck with some form of toxin when venom is cast to which a reaction is had and forms the spores. to me they seem more a side effect of the ability that is taken advantage of than the main focus of the ability which would be to use a venom of some desctription injected at range to weaken the foe.

 

 

Saryn's venom coated melee would be the snake here though. I can strike someone with it and that someone wont infect other targets. I have to manually hit every single target much like a single snake has to bite multiple people separately.

 

Meanwhile I put spores on a target, shoot it, and then the spores spread to more targets within its range. And with no target limit. Its more of a contagion than her 3rd ability.

 

I don't have to manually target each enemy and use her 1 for them to have spores. I just shoot the first target.

 

And besides, the rework most people want for it would be for spores to spread on death (I think it was like this when it first came out as well) which would reinforce the contagion part even more.

 

at risk of sounding like a broken record, the stuff she coats her sword in is not a venom or poison. its some form of, well, contagion

 

the spores are not the cause of the damage themselves but more the contents which would contain amounts of the toxin that cause the reaction in the first place. which by the way no matter what we say that toxins ability to inflict is crazy high cause it can get through what i assume is a sealed environment of the corpus crewmen's suits. the casting on the first target is the 'bite' that envenomates the target. shooting the spores 'splashes' that venom on nearby targets via the contents of the spore apparently being under pressure. i really am just arguing the same points over and over arent i? i appologize for being a broken record but its the only way i can think to address each post indvividually.

 

 

Quick useful blurb: Venom is injected, poison is ingested.

this is technically untrue. venom is injected yes but venom is a poison. poison is by definition, a substance that is capable of causing the illness or death of a living organism when introduced or absorbed. so to say venom is injected and poison is ingested is, while not false, is technically improper use of the words because poison can be inflicted by an injection, breathing it in, ingesting it, or on contact.

 

 

oh dear...i made a wall again. im sorry

Edited July 20, 2015 by Caobie

[RexRgisIocus]

A blowgun with darts tipped with poison dart frog poison isn't a contagion. Its a blowgun with poisoned darts. The poison isn't spreading itself. Same thing Saryn does with her melee weaps, she just coats them in poison.

 

Again, the spores used to spread upon target death iirc but it fried computers that couldn't handle so many things on the screen so it was changed. Therefore the names have been wrong from the very start.

 

Spreading Viral has a more contagion-y vibe than hurting people with poison tipped weaps.

[Caobie]

A blowgun with darts tipped with poison dart frog poison isn't a contagion. Its a blowgun with poisoned darts. The poison isn't spreading itself. Same thing Saryn does with her melee weaps, she just coats them in poison.

 

Again, the spores used to spread upon target death iirc but it fried computers that couldn't handle so many things on the screen so it was changed. Therefore the names have been wrong from the very start.

 

Spreading Viral has a more contagion-y vibe than hurting people with poison tipped weaps.

well except she doesnt coat them in poison by the abilities description if it was a poison i would 100% agree but it isnt. now i will concede that the damage types could be switched up to make more sense but they do still work as is. and i wouldnt know about the spores spread on death. that mustve been before my time then.

 

and i had a chat with a friend after showing them this topic....and i came up with a good way to describe the point im trying to make. contagion is like the mouth of a komodo dragon not the fangs of a viper where as venom is like a snake bite gone horridly wrong with a spitting cobra as the example for infliction at range.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Caobie

[RexRgisIocus]

well except she doesnt coat them in poison by the abilities description if it was a poison i would 100% agree but it isnt. now i will concede that the damage types could be switched up to make more sense but they do still work as is. and i wouldnt know about the spores spread on death. that mustve been before my time then.

 

and i had a chat with a friend after showing them this topic....and i came up with a good way to describe the point im trying to make. contagion is like the mouth of a komodo dragon not the fangs of a viper where as venom is like a snake bite gone horridly wrong with a spitting cobra as the example for infliction at range.

 

A Komodo bite injects disease instead of injecting venom yes but the disease doesn't spread itself. A Komodo has to bite you, and everyone else separately to spread its disease ridden saliva. That doesn't make it a contagion. It still works the same as a snake bite.

 

A plant that carries a virus that has spores that when popped spread other virus carrying spores in the air. That's a contagion. That's exactly what Saryn's 1st skill does.

 

DE's description aren't necessarily accurate or right. Does Shield Transference still say that Mag creates a bubble shield around herself? Rhino is still described as a tank when he clearly is little more than a support frame atm.

 

[Caobie]

A Komodo bite injects disease instead of injecting venom yes but the disease doesn't spread itself. A Komodo has to bite you, and everyone else separately to spread its disease ridden saliva. That doesn't make it a contagion. It still works the same as a snake bite.

 

A plant that carries a virus that has spores that when popped spread other virus carrying spores in the air. That's a contagion. That's exactly what Saryn's 1st skill does.

 

DE's description aren't necessarily accurate or right. Does Shield Transference still say that Mag creates a bubble shield around herself? Rhino is still described as a tank when he clearly is little more than a support frame atm.

 

outdated is a bit more accurate for rhino and mag's description and some others. and your point about the komodo describes what contagion is as an ability to a t. what makes it a contagion is that a poison is a substance, a set of chemicals or proteins while a contagion is a disease...a living cell of some description is implied. so a komodo's bite is a contagion. in your plant example you are turning the initial victim into the plant and the spores are the spore pods to be popped to spread a poison.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Caobie

[RexRgisIocus]

outdated is a bit more accurate for rhino and mag's description and some others. and your point about the komodo describes what contagion is as an ability to a t. what makes it a contagion is that a poison is a substance, a set of chemicals or proteins while a contagion is a disease...a living cell of some description is implied. so a komodo's bite is a contagion. in your plant example you are turning the initial victim into the plant and the spores are the spore pods to be popped to spread a poison.

 

After reading more on the subject I found that what makes it a contagion is how it is transmited. It doesn't matter if its a disease or virus. So a Komodos bite could be seen as one yes. I'll give you that point.

 

However given the elementals tied to Saryn's powers that fact alone automatically rules out her 3rd ability since it doesn't spread anything even if its description says so. Afaik her 3rd doesn't raises her melee's status chance and its damage type is toxic.

 

Her 1st ability though has viral as its damage type and has a fairly decent chance to proc said damage type's status.

 

Also Contagions current description says "Saryn imbues her melee weapon with high levels of toxicity". If its imbued with toxic then it cant spread disease and plague seeing as toxic isn't a contagion as it isn't a disease.

[motorfirebox]

to me the spores spreading is a side effect of the cause of the damage similar to my example of a severely swolen part bursting. thats really what the spores remind me of. giant puss filled sacs under pressure the contents of which are highly toxic and the sacs themselves are created by a reaction to some form of toxin that the ability inflicts

 

while the point of coating a weapon in poison is correct the ability description itself says 'transmitting disease and plague with each strike' so it isnt a poison despite the damage type being toxin....which i agree that maybe the damage types could switch reasonably but not the names due to the perceived function.

 

if something is contagious it is capable of transmission in any form. in this case an 'infected' blade that saryn is swinging. and like i said earlier the initial target is struck with some form of toxin when venom is cast to which a reaction is had and forms the spores. to me they seem more a side effect of the ability that is taken advantage of than the main focus of the ability which would be to use a venom of some desctription injected at range to weaken the foe.

 

 

at risk of sounding like a broken record, the stuff she coats her sword in is not a venom or poison. its some form of, well, contagion

 

the spores are not the cause of the damage themselves but more the contents which would contain amounts of the toxin that cause the reaction in the first place. which by the way no matter what we say that toxins ability to inflict is crazy high cause it can get through what i assume is a sealed environment of the corpus crewmen's suits. the casting on the first target is the 'bite' that envenomates the target. shooting the spores 'splashes' that venom on nearby targets via the contents of the spore apparently being under pressure. i really am just arguing the same points over and over arent i? i appologize for being a broken record but its the only way i can think to address each post indvividually.

 

 

this is technically untrue. venom is injected yes but venom is a poison. poison is by definition, a substance that is capable of causing the illness or death of a living organism when introduced or absorbed. so to say venom is injected and poison is ingested is, while not false, is technically improper use of the words because poison can be inflicted by an injection, breathing it in, ingesting it, or on contact.

 

 

oh dear...i made a wall again. im sorry

 

You're twisting the power descriptions, man. The effect of the Contagion power is venomous, and the effect of the Venom power is contagious. Whatever the lore says, that's how the powers actually work.

Edited July 20, 2015 by motorfirebox

[Caobie]

However given the elementals tied to Saryn's powers that fact alone automatically rules out her 3rd ability since it doesn't spread anything even if its description says so. Afaik her 3rd doesn't raises her melee's status chance and its damage type is toxic.

 

Her 1st ability though has viral as its damage type and has a fairly decent chance to proc said damage type's status.

 

Also Contagions current description says "Saryn imbues her melee weapon with high levels of toxicity". If its imbued with toxic then it cant spread disease and plague seeing as toxic isn't a contagion as it isn't a disease.

and this is my concession on the point. the elements could be swapped but on a functionality level (which is where most people argue) the names are appropriate. 

 

toxicity by definition is just the degree to which a substance can harm humans or animals usually a toxin or poison of course. and while loose it could be used to describe contagion

[motorfirebox]

No, on a functionality level, they're completely backwards. Again, getting bit by a snake doesn't mean you'll go around poisoning other people.

 

Honestly, with the descriptions being what they are and the damage types being what they are, I'm pretty sure somebody on the dev team just accidentally switched the names. Same way they did with Neural Sensors and Neurodes, before update 16.

Edited July 20, 2015 by motorfirebox

[RexRgisIocus]

and this is my concession on the point. the elements could be swapped but on a functionality level (which is where most people argue) the names are appropriate. 

 

toxicity by definition is just the degree to which a substance can harm humans or animals usually a toxin or poison of course. and while loose it could be used to describe contagion

 

Whether Venom becomes Gas or Toxic it will still feel more like a contagion than Contagion ever will even if Contagion was changed to Viral because it actually spreads stuff around.

 

Contagion would need a lot of tweaks for it to feel like a contagion. Like for example spreading the virus Contagion would inflict upon first contact between enemies that touch each other.

 

[Caobie]

well seeing as im apparently a minority voice (at least 4 to one just here) i suppose ill back down. i am not admitting defeat nor claiming victory. just tired of arguing around the same point. ive said all i can say without saying the same things worded differently. good discussion Rex and everyone else. im glad it didnt devolve into yelling or poor attitude as some topics do.

 

abandoning thread unless i see major discussion suddenly happen.

[CruelCrow]

this is technically untrue. venom is injected yes but venom is a poison. poison is by definition, a substance that is capable of causing the illness or death of a living organism when introduced or absorbed. so to say venom is injected and poison is ingested is, while not false, is technically improper use of the words because poison can be inflicted by an injection, breathing it in, ingesting it, or on contact.

oh dear...i made a wall again. im sorry

Venom isn't a poison, it's a toxin. Poisons are absorbed, consumed, or inhaled, while venom is always injected by some means. Toxins, in dumbed down terms, are compounds that cause harm to an organism, which encompasses poisons, toxins, and others such as free radicals.

I mean, not trying to cause a technicality war here, but it really makes more sense to switch them. If you're going to say that the toxin (let's just use this for now instead of poison/venom) is causing the bulbous swelling, consider the immune reaction - many toxins get into the body from bacteria, one of the possible agents allowing a contagion can happen. The bacteria release a toxin either actively or when they are destroyed by the immune system, so your argument there is somewhat invalid. Others have already pointed out that a contagion should generally be able to spread from more than one source - while this isn't definitive, it's true in almost every situation.

Again - yes, you could interpret the names to fit the abilities, but seriously. I think they were switched at birth.

[Caobie]

Venom isn't a poison, it's a toxin. Poisons are absorbed, consumed, or inhaled, while venom is always injected by some means. Toxins, in dumbed down terms, are compounds that cause harm to an organism, which encompasses poisons, toxins, and others such as free radicals.

i just couldnt leave this alone....you realize that in your quoting of me you caught the definition for poison pulled from google when searching 'poison definition'. and what you describe is almost word for word that definition? and you also realize that poison and toxin are synonymous? cause im not trying to be rude in this but you really goofed there....now i could be completely incorrect and you could be right, im open to that possibility but when you essentially say im wrong then correct me via use of the synonym....well it certainly seems silly.

[Bipp]

What would be great is a Saryn rework. With new improved skills that fit their names and descriptions. 

'Cause honestly I have to say that the names of her 1rd and 3st are logically mixed up (SEE WHAT I DID THERE). Contagion doesn't act like a contagion and neither does Venom... act like venom considering the different damage types that each one does.

 

But Frosty and my Hek come first

 

...

 

'_'

Edited July 20, 2015 by Keybopsef