Conspiracy Theory: No One Who Works At De Actually Plays Warframe

[PhoenixElite]

On the bright side, I don't have to be the one to point out what you have pointed out.

On the down side, I can't become [in]famous for pointing it out.

Either way, you sir, get my +1 and an internet cookie.

[rockscl]

just about the grind: i have rarely farmed, probably i have been at draco 10 - 15 times, but i can agree in that the reward system is hard, however, when i can get a 30 or more worth enhancement, i know that i could also buy the latest prime in some days by just selling stuff, the grind is rather an option given the accessibility of plat worth content, but seems like people who dislikes grinding also doesnt consider the trade channel as a valid mean to transform in game time into the reward that one is looking for

Edited July 21, 2015 by rockscl

[ArbitUHM]

I think people here don't even try to or can't understand the point of view of a developer.

This, plus a tendency to take all the good stuff about Warframe for granted and to scream bloody murder about the bad stuff, leads to a very adversarial relationship with DE. 

 

I don't think they should be completely let off the hook though. Look at how long it took them to normalize the elemental mods i.e. make the 11 point electric mod give +90% damage rather than +60%. Why did that take so long to change? Was there ever any real reason to have differing damage values? And would it really kill them to knock a second of reload time off the Supra and give it +25% projectile speed? And why were they so resistant to a Rakta Ballistica buff?

 

Sometimes their priorities are a little... inscrutable.

[ObviousLee]

-snip-

bear in mind i'm not in complete disagreement with you on this, but I think I can understand why things are the way they are.

 

COULD BE WRONG HERE, but I feel it has to do with a few things, being time money and playtesting.

 

We've seen the long nights they pull, the hard work that they bring to the table. We've seen the rise of new content, only to see it fall to the wayside of our dps hoses of one variety or another. We have powers that crush entire legions, fist weapons that pump out concussive force upon ground pouding, the beauty of tearing around space in Arch Wing.....but we still have broken armor scaling, broken hp scaling, boring game modes, imbalanced nerf/buff thread requests....all in all we're still in the cave, haven't even gotten to the jungle yet, let alone civilization.

 

So why are we still hobbled by these issues? time, money, and play testing.

 

When we look at how hard they work, and yes they do work hard, we sometimes see some amazing payoffs in regards to the content we recieve. However, most of the time what we see is either a weapon or warframe we view as weak and unusable, something thats entirely too over-powered, and more often than not an update that breaks a core section of the game(anyone remember the great core famine of 2013?).

 

Now, why is it that we observe this phenominon? i've said it twice, i'll say it three times: time, money, and playtesting.

 

a small amount of developers( as far as we actually know) working long hours, getting paid anywhere from S#&$ to handsomely (again, I don't know and i'm not that caring to try and peek at DE's Payroll.) while working pretty obscene hours. Now, I've done the long work crap pay gig before, numerous times, so I can be understanding of issues arising out of lack of sleep and over work. But these first two lead into the third, most important issue i believe to be at hand: lack of playtesting.

 

DE NEEDS to have some in-game experts that truly understand the weapons and frames they have in stock to troubleshoot possible solutions to each individual item. You don't have to pay us, you don't even need to give us any kind of shiney to make us feel better or important. You need to let us in on the game that we love, DE. You can, and will benefit from the experts of your game, as to be fair chances are the population majority may or may not have more game time spent than anyone on the development team.

 

^-------This is experience. Experience helps in decision making processes that involve or revolve around specific items. There are very few situations that I would trust someone with no experience in the mechanics or processes involved in playing this game to handle for me. That being said, seek out people who know their toys. I know zephyr, phage, and obex better than almost anyone i've played with on this game. I'm closing down on 90 million experience on Z alone. compared to say, Excal or Trinity, of which i have comparitively no experience on the matter in. So, were I a developer on this game I'd be hitting up people on forums, in game, and during missions about things they know about their favored toys, to improve my knowledge of the things i'm lacking in.

 

What DE lacks, is a strong communicative rapport with it's playerbase, a firm and deep understanding of how it's playerbase interacts with the content they put forth, and a dedicated (impartial but affinity for) team that cares deeply about the content of this game over pumping out new content. Not to say that the team doesn't care what they put out, but we need excal loyalists, loki supporters and the like to help balance the games content, fix glaring issues, and most importantly have the ability to easily communicate and get feedback from the developers.

 

at least those are my thoughts, could be wrong. Ya neva know wit deez kinda things.

[-Kryptyk-]

I can personally say RNG has been too cruel to me. In the span of 2 years of my Warframe lifetime I have yet to encounter a single Despair BP from my dear Stalker. I am now filled with despair to the point of not bothering with it any longer. And also because I refuse to spend 800 plats for 1 out of 3 weapons set in which I already have 2 of them. The visits from him every 2-3 days is just to spend his time to grant me the ever rare drops Heavy Impact and Molten Impact.

I think they had done some reduction to his drop rates for certain things.... 

[S.T.M.P.D]

bear in mind i'm not in complete disagreement with you on this, but I think I can understand why things are the way they are.

 

COULD BE WRONG HERE, but I feel it has to do with a few things, being time money and playtesting.

 

We've seen the long nights they pull, the hard work that they bring to the table. We've seen the rise of new content, only to see it fall to the wayside of our dps hoses of one variety or another. We have powers that crush entire legions, fist weapons that pump out concussive force upon ground pouding, the beauty of tearing around space in Arch Wing.....but we still have broken armor scaling, broken hp scaling, boring game modes, imbalanced nerf/buff thread requests....all in all we're still in the cave, haven't even gotten to the jungle yet, let alone civilization.

 

So why are we still hobbled by these issues? time, money, and play testing.

 

When we look at how hard they work, and yes they do work hard, we sometimes see some amazing payoffs in regards to the content we recieve. However, most of the time what we see is either a weapon or warframe we view as weak and unusable, something thats entirely too over-powered, and more often than not an update that breaks a core section of the game(anyone remember the great core famine of 2013?).

 

Now, why is it that we observe this phenominon? i've said it twice, i'll say it three times: time, money, and playtesting.

 

a small amount of developers( as far as we actually know) working long hours, getting paid anywhere from S#&$ to handsomely (again, I don't know and i'm not that caring to try and peek at DE's Payroll.) while working pretty obscene hours. Now, I've done the long work crap pay gig before, numerous times, so I can be understanding of issues arising out of lack of sleep and over work. But these first two lead into the third, most important issue i believe to be at hand: lack of playtesting.

 

DE NEEDS to have some in-game experts that truly understand the weapons and frames they have in stock to troubleshoot possible solutions to each individual item. You don't have to pay us, you don't even need to give us any kind of shiney to make us feel better or important. You need to let us in on the game that we love, DE. You can, and will benefit from the experts of your game, as to be fair chances are the population majority may or may not have more game time spent than anyone on the development team.

 

^-------This is experience. Experience helps in decision making processes that involve or revolve around specific items. There are very few situations that I would trust someone with no experience in the mechanics or processes involved in playing this game to handle for me. That being said, seek out people who know their toys. I know zephyr, phage, and obex better than almost anyone i've played with on this game. I'm closing down on 90 million experience on Z alone. compared to say, Excal or Trinity, of which i have comparitively no experience on the matter in. So, were I a developer on this game I'd be hitting up people on forums, in game, and during missions about things they know about their favored toys, to improve my knowledge of the things i'm lacking in.

 

What DE lacks, is a strong communicative rapport with it's playerbase, a firm and deep understanding of how it's playerbase interacts with the content they put forth, and a dedicated (impartial but affinity for) team that cares deeply about the content of this game over pumping out new content. Not to say that the team doesn't care what they put out, but we need excal loyalists, loki supporters and the like to help balance the games content, fix glaring issues, and most importantly have the ability to easily communicate and get feedback from the developers.

 

at least those are my thoughts, could be wrong. Ya neva know wit deez kinda things.

Euuurrrgghhh.

See, the funny thing is I think they're trying, it's just that when we have things like Draco float to the top as they slowly but surely attempt to put out new content - I think sometimes Steve gets frustrated with the playerbase. Remember when he read TheGreatZamboni's salty, hostile, but actually kind of intelligent thing on mods and got pretty damn upset? Remember the fiasco around Devstream 54? Remember when people defended letting Viver stay as it was? Remember the whole PW thing no-one's gotten over, at all? It makes me wonder if Steve almost avoids going on the forums or playing the current game in his free time.

I think Rebecca knows our woes, though. I'm just not sure if the actual devs really want to listen, which is kind of a scary thought. Sure, they've been putting out quality content as of late, but devstreams are mainly showcases now, almost as though DE's a litttle afraid of the salty, turgid, briny tides we've stirred up. I hope that's not the case.

[FelisImpurrator]

I think Rebecca knows our woes, though. I'm just not sure if the actual devs really want to listen, which is kind of a scary thought. Sure, they've been putting out quality content as of late, but devstreams are mainly showcases now, almost as though DE's a litttle afraid of the salty, turgid, briny tides we've stirred up. I hope that's not the case.

This is what I've been saying. Who wants to fight against tidal waves of salt? Constantly? How much can they do if even an attempt to be honest and transparent about their business dealings - what other game dev bothers to publicize their share composition to the playerbase regularly - is read as an evil conspiracy to sell out to China?

 

I saw people giving Steve crap on his Twitter about the starchart rework they haven't even heard details for. He said that everything he's trying to do with that is for the sake of fun, and based on how heated that argument got (and everything about the constant, active Parkour 2.0 updates we've been getting), I can believe that. Easily. Whether the players can deal with it properly, and whether the devs can trust the players and vice versa? I have my doubts.

[S.T.M.P.D]

This is what I've been saying. Who wants to fight against tidal waves of salt? Constantly? How much can they do if even an attempt to be honest and transparent about their business dealings - what other game dev bothers to publicize their share composition to the playerbase regularly - is read as an evil conspiracy to sell out to China?

 

I saw people giving Steve crap on his Twitter about the starchart rework they haven't even heard details for. He said that everything he's trying to do with that is for the sake of fun, and based on how heated that argument got (and everything about the constant, active Parkour 2.0 updates we've been getting), I can believe that. Easily. Whether the players can deal with it properly, and whether the devs can trust the players and vice versa? I have my doubts.

This whole thing feels like the perfect tv drama. The community manager is trying to bridge the gap between basement-dwelling but somewhat brilliant devs and a salty but enthusiastic community, while corporate watchdogs lap and drool in the shadows... It'd be like house of cards but the egos are even more bloated and what's at stake isn't power, but art.

[vaugahn]

Euuurrrgghhh.

See, the funny thing is I think they're trying, it's just that when we have things like Draco float to the top as they slowly but surely attempt to put out new content - I think sometimes Steve gets frustrated with the playerbase. Remember when he read TheGreatZamboni's salty, hostile, but actually kind of intelligent thing on mods and got pretty damn upset? Remember the fiasco around Devstream 54? Remember when people defended letting Viver stay as it was? Remember the whole PW thing no-one's gotten over, at all? It makes me wonder if Steve almost avoids going on the forums or playing the current game in his free time.

I think Rebecca knows our woes, though. I'm just not sure if the actual devs really want to listen, which is kind of a scary thought. Sure, they've been putting out quality content as of late, but devstreams are mainly showcases now, almost as though DE's a litttle afraid of the salty, turgid, briny tides we've stirred up. I hope that's not the case.

 

I tend to agree with this. 

 

I think it's especially unfortunate when you consider the fact that the devs obviously want us to be involved in their process, but they can't actually involve us for fear of retaliation from a paranoid playerbase. In the initial devstream where they talked about the star chart rework it really seemed like they were trying to bring us into the "ideas" phase of development, a phase we're almost never involved in, and met with the reaction that was met with I wouldn't be surprised at all if we don't see anything like that again soon.

[Rorgal_Sina]

I think this topic can be translated into this:

 

I know this game better than DE does. That it?

[Feallike]

OK seriously OP your attitude toward this subject is already wrong saying that you think the DE doesn't play their own game or just sucks at it. That gives a bias toward the subject which you can't give and still give a good argument.

 

Rng is fine, it is just as bad as you make it and better than most triple A games arng.

 

Energy system is OK for what it is and it doesn't need to be stupidly over complicative or easier.

 

 

Though here is the core problem, that infurates me whenever players go out of their way to make it seem like the DE doesn't even know these problems. Or doesn't care.

 

The DE knows all these things are a problem, they aren't a huge team. They either have only a few people working on this or are focusing on something they think is more important.

 

They knew Parkour needed fixed for 3 years and it took them 3 years to finally get it to a point where they wanted to show off what they have done. The DE isn't a company that tells you something is coming soon or shows off something months before it comes out. They wait until it is over 70% done before even mentioning it. They don't talk about stuff they aren't far enough in development to actually give concrete details about.

 

Melee 2.0 went through MANY changes the DE changes stuff all the time and it takes them longer than needed to make stuff because they want to be happy with it. 

 

Also these core problems you talk about are their for the players more than design. If we didn't have the armor system we have now you could infintely go through a survival. Also 2 of those problems where caused by players exploits not the DE's actual design.

 

 

The DE can only do so much, and honestly we are probably the reason the DE can't do half of these things we complain about. If it wasn't for us they could easily just balance everything perfectly, though because of us they can't balance BoltorP without risk of losing a decent portion of the playerbase and being spammed with hate.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Feallike

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

I think this topic can be translated into this:

 

I know this game better than DE does. That it?

 

It's closer to "DE's behavior seems to indicate that the player base knows the game better than they do."

 

OK seriously OP your attitude toward this subject is already wrong saying that you think the DE doesn't play their own game or just sucks at it. That gives a bias toward the subject which you can't give and still give a good argument.

 

First of all:

 

DISCLAIMER, for all of you who need one:

Obviously Warframe's developers actually play the game. This is only a way for me to express my frustrations regarding DE's behavior when it comes to how they handle the game. This may come across as a complaint thread and/or developer bashing, but how am I supposed to critique the devs' behavior if my attempts to do so are immediately written off as just salting? Part of this is me venting my frustrations, part of this is me wanting to critique the devs' handling of the game, and part of this is me bringing this issue out into the open to be discussed, although I somehow doubt that any civil discussion will happen.

 

Rng is fine, it is just as bad as you make it and better than most triple A games arng.

 

So if triple A games do it, it's ok? Well, there goes Jim Sterling's career.

 

Energy system is OK for what it is and it doesn't need to be stupidly over complicative or easier.

 

The energy system is broken because efficiency mods make all of your abilities nearly free, allowing for the aforementioned P42W gameplay. Energy is supposed to be a limiting factor, but efficiency mods make it nearly unlimited.

 

Also these core problems you talk about are their for the players more than design. If we didn't have the armor system we have now you could infintely go through a survival. Also 2 of those problems where caused by players exploits not the DE's actual design.

 

It's the players' faults for exploiting and abusing many of these core problems, mainly the broken energy system, but it's also DE's fault for allowing players to continue exploiting it to the point where it becomes a problem. I only partially blame the player base for many of these issues, because while it's scummy for players to abuse an exploit, it's just as bad for the developers to not fix the exploit, especially after it's become very well known and very problematic and the players have begged for a fix for months.

 

If enemy armor wasn't vastly more powerful than enemy shields, then there would be endgame Corpus missions, and armor removal wouldn't be nearly as essential for endgame content. Simply nerfing enemy armor with no other changes would be a bad idea, but other changes could be made to add challenge that doesn't rely on a broken or problematic mechanic like enemy armor. Non-endless missions being too easy was another core problem I listed, and can be remedied in the same way.

 

The DE can only do so much, and honestly we are probably the reason the DE can't do half of these things we complain about. If it wasn't for us they could easily just balance everything perfectly, though because of us they can't balance BoltorP without risk of losing a decent portion of the playerbase and being spammed with hate.

 

That's the fault of the players for demanding DPS-hoses instead of actually looking at the core problems and trying to fix them, which is exactly what I'm trying to do. Outcry against a Boltor Prime nerf wouldn't be a problem if people actually recognized why DPS monsters harm the game.

Edited July 22, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[S.T.M.P.D]

I see you ignored my post, the one which tried to be constructive without explicitly taking a side! Pity; I thought we could have a reasonable discussion about the relationship between the developer and the playerbase, but this has degenerated into more RNG talk.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

I see you ignored my post, the one which tried to be constructive without explicitly taking a side! Pity; I thought we could have a reasonable discussion about the relationship between the developer and the playerbase, but this has degenerated into more RNG talk.

 

Well, if you insist.

 

I feel like it's the devs' responsibility to listen to the player base despite the salt, because even the saltiest of salt can still make a good point. Criticism needs to be taken into consideration despite personal feelings, and development should focus on what objectively solves the biggest problems instead of doing what subjectively anyone thinks is cool.

 

However, I also can't help but feel that saying this is a bit hypocritical of me, since if I was put in the position of having to face that much salt, I would probably display similar behavior. If DE doesn't want to listen, that's definitely a bad thing, but I could understand why.

 

I love the concept of a Warframe development T.V. drama, though. It would be like that season of The Guild where the protagonist gets a new job at the studio that's developing her favorite game.

[CrimsonNightSky]

I'm pretty sure that the team takes a peek at the forums more often than any of us would guess. 

But sometimes the forums get a little bit aggressive in attitude or demands. That kind of thing can be mentally and emotionally draining for people invested in their creative work. And it's on top of working their full time job and thinking about (or playing) it in their spare time.

It can be hard to do all that and not develop a thick skin sometimes. Personally I'd go into a fetal position with a binky listening to owl city or enya.

[(PSN)Snowbluff]

You know, I was almost going to disagree, but...

 

Just think about it. Imagine how many easy weapons tweaks, that would literally only be changing a couple of integers, that would make whole classes of weapons more viable. The more of these I see, the more I think "Wow, DE devs don't seem to know this weapons exists."

[AlphaHorseman]

I agree with everything in the post except the energy system. My side being that, as I'm a guy that plays caster, I like having my energy at the ready if I'm playing a high efficiency build. Mind you, this isn't the case for all my frames, especially frames like Nova, or other frames like Loki and Chroma for example. These frames actually benefit from builds that don't rely on Fleeting, and that's great that they do.

 

When I say I play caster, that means I play with using most, if not all of my abilities. I play with Frost as my main, and I don't just sit there and "Spam 3" because to me that's the most boring game play ever. However, when I see other players resorting to those kinds of tactics, instead of being infuriated with them or disdaining their existence, I try to see why they resort to such actions. If you really think about it, it's because of the RNG, as you pointed out, and the excessive Grind Walls and Time Walls put into place.

 

The key here isn't to blame the player base for what they're doing, because they aren't the only ones (nor in my opinion the main ones) at fault. If such walls were taken down, or at the very least toned down, and content was more varied and was intensively expanded upon, then we might see some greater improvements in the player bases' actions because of this. Players wouldn't have to resort to such actions to complete tasks in a timely manner. Sure, there will always be players who do so, but not as severe as we see now.

 

But let's get back to the Energy System:

 

In other Frames cases, I really don't see a problem with high efficiency builds. It isn't the Frame's fault for being good in one build, or the other, nor is it the energy systems' fault. In any case, if you have a problem with how others play Frames with high efficiency, I'd wager there's other people who have problems with how you play the game. That's just how it is, and you'll have that no matter what happens.

 

However, in a game space like this, where the Dev's are (I hope) listening to the player feedback, it's key to try and see the other side of the coin when you suggest that something is unhealthy or bad or broken in the game, (i.e. the energy system), because other players will be hurt by this. Not just those players you disapprove of, but the rest of the player base as well. Me and other casters included.

 

May I ask, what issues, specifically, do you have with the current system? Is it really the system, or is it a certain frame or load out that you disapprove of?

[[DE]Rebecca]

Once upon a time there was a group of chefs working a kitchen. While the chefs would love to spend all day eating their own meals, they know they have customers to serve and a very large menu to cook. They only have time to sneak but a taste (sometimes more if they're lucky and have time)! A taste a day, then it's business day-after-day to get that menu in the customers hands, as well as make changes to the menu when they can. Sometimes the restaurant is so busy the chefs continue to cook the same meals week after week! But - the restaurant owner, well, he knows menu changes are good for the chefs and good for the customers. So every 3-5 months they change it all up. New menu items, same chefs, same customers. Luckily for the chefs, there is no shortage of customers giving feedback on dishes! So they work on prototyping all different kinds of things. Like the 'Aim with Secondary fire weapons souffle', 'Frosty Rework Cone', and the 'Shotgun Buff Stew'! Sadly they're still finding the best recipe for some of the most complicated dishes - dishes that are to satisfy the most loyal customers who have been eating at their restaurant for 2 years or more! How to make food exciting again for such a client? How to please the most loyal of customers who have almost tasted it all?  While some say 'just put more pepper on it', the chefs wonder if another dash of seasoning will really do the trick when really they need to take a look what's actually being cooked. This is on the mind of the chef and entire restaurant staff from dawn till dusk every single day.

 

I am locking this Feedback thread - it contains too many inflammatory remarks masquerading as feedback to fuel a conspiracy theory and constructive conversation is not occurring.