No Such Thing As Camping In Defense And Survival...

[magusat999]

I had some replies in topics past (and read a lot of other topics) that referred to camping in Defense / Survival missions. I want to clarify how that is impossible. You cannot "camp" in Defense or Survival because Defense is where camping came from, and Survival is camping by nature of it's one objective - to survive as long as you can in a big open sandbox.

 

IN DEFENSE, the objective is to hold position and/or protect a stationary object of some point. What typifies Defense, and sets it apart form other missions is it is contained in a small, confined area. The waves of enemies come to you or the objective - you do not have to draw them out. You don.t need to run from place to place in defense - for one you don't have much of a place to go, and the other is you need to protect a certain spot, or hold a position. Running around like it is Extermination just does not work in Defense. Additionally, Defense has a finite set on enemies - you cannot camp unless you have an steady stream of enemies.

 

IN SURVIVAL, your mission is to survive. It is SUPPOSED to be anything and all out. Like the Survivor TV show - Outwit, Outlast, Outgun... or something like that... That has been watered down (and needs to be addressed). It should be all out, open world, whatever you can think of to survive, but it's been "afflicted" - I won't even get into that here... Anyways, you cannot "Camp" in Survival because the concept of camping is the basis of survival. There was this one group that got all of these accolades for lasting a very long time during the event that spawned the Survival mode. They were interviewed, saluted given major kudos - by DE (video might still be around). made a really big noise about them (but not the groups that came right behind them and broke their record...). What did they do to survive so long? Well, what people are damning now as "camping". They went into a closet and forced the enemies to face them and a lot of firepower from one direction! Now why was it okay to celebrate them for this - and now its being attacked? Was that not "camping"??? NO IT WASN'T. Because the nature of Survival mode, you cannot call that camping. The goal is to survive as long as you can - and if you can survive for 6 -10 hours, then you did a good job. You can't call camping camping in Survival - that's what you have to do to progress. Strategically finding a place "Where numbers mean NOTHING!" isn't camping - in Survival it's SMART and should be celebrated. You can only run around like a crazy chicken a short time before the Bombards teach you whose gonna die first...

 

CAMPING is holding a position, in a mission other than Defense or Survival, for a prolonged period of time, effectively making the mission LIKE a defense / survival mission. You draw the enemies to you, strategically bringing them in a situation of disadvantage and wipe them out on a consistent basis. It is camping because you are ignoring the mission objectives and the rest of the map. In Defense there is no "rest of the map", btw. Your in the small area that is all your going to see. In Survival there is a "rest of the map" but you have no objectives on that map and it should be treated as a big, open sandbox. Camping can only occur outside of defense / survival for this reason as well. Camping can also not occur with only a set number of enemies. Sabotage, Capture have an infinite number of enemies - they keep spawning as long as you are there. You can "Camp" in those missions because there is a steady supply of enemies. not so in defense. Survival has an infinite spawn - but the objective is already "campy", so you cannot call it "camping" (in the derogatory sense).

 

[[DE]Artarrwen]

Yeah no, it's one thing to hold one room in Survival with several backup capsules in it and holing up in a tiny cramped space with 1 way in and 1 way out and spamming non stop is something else entirely.

 

IN SURVIVAL, your mission is to survive. It is SUPPOSED to be anything and all out. Like the Survivor TV show - Outwit, Outlast, Outgun... or something like that... That has been watered down (and needs to be addressed). It should be all out, open world, whatever you can think of to survive, but it's been "afflicted" - I won't even get into that here... Anyways, you cannot "Camp" in Survival because the concept of camping is the basis of survival. There was this one group that got all of these accolades for lasting a very long time during the event that spawned the Survival mode. They were interviewed, saluted given major kudos - by DE (video might still be around). made a really big noise about them (but not the groups that came right behind them and broke their record...). What did they do to survive so long? Well, what people are damning now as "camping". They went into a closet and forced the enemies to face them and a lot of firepower from one direction! Now why was it okay to celebrate them for this - and now its being attacked? Was that not "camping"??? NO IT WASN'T. Because the nature of Survival mode, you cannot call that camping. The goal is to survive as long as you can - and if you can survive for 6 -10 hours, then you did a good job. You can't call camping camping in Survival - that's what you have to do to progress. Strategically finding a place "Where numbers mean NOTHING!" isn't camping - in Survival it's SMART and should be celebrated. You can only run around like a crazy chicken a short time before the Bombards teach you whose gonna die first...

It's smart for the first few times. Then it gets dull. It gets dull to the point the group quits the mission if that sweet sewer tile doesn't spawn. Such strategic.

But yeah, the usual "it's not the problem it's just a symptom" applies. Something something grind.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Artarrwen

[OverlordMcGeek]

Defense is a no brainer of course it is the way it is suppose to be played as.

 

You lost me in your excuse for Survival.

[-Amaterasu-]

you aren't required to camp in either of these modes it is a choice and it can be done if you are in a T4S in a sewer with a vauban spamming vortex while an excal slashes away at it then you are camping if you are in a T4S actually moving around between the rooms killing enemies as you go not staying in a single spot for prolonged periods of time then you are not camping

[Plushy]

I think you're trying to start an argument with your personal definitions.

[SlipianRage]

I wish I could upvote this allday every day

Also, I like to read how all the excalibur and rhino players get mad when any efficient way to farm anything comes up.

Edited July 25, 2015 by SlipianRage

[XBlackLotusX]

*facepalm* please let this thread die its eather a troll or he doesent understand some people take the camping too far to the point where you dont even have to move or aim.or hes in denial but no matter what we cannot help him other than saying this

 

Vauban

volt

speed nova

nekros

survival

???

profit

[Ryjeon]

I like to have a fall-back position when the situation gets more tense. Or a smart use of chokepoints when the enemy density is higher in relation to their time to kill. But when it becomes the default style to beeline to the nearest closet at 5 minutes and sit there waiting for enemies to walk to you I think it's silly and boring. I find players that rely on that tend to have a much harder time staying alive without that sort of crutch too.

 

I have nothing against players who want to build a specific comp around a specific strategy. But it shouldn't often be expected as the default approach. I think since GMag got nerfed it hasn't really been an issue.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Ryjeon

[motorfirebox]

Er, yes, you absolutely can camp in survival. Whether you like camping or not, it is a particular strategy that is separate from other approaches to survival. Deciding that it's "not camping" because you're sad that some people don't like camping? That doesn't even make sense.

[nickelshark]

Do you know why I solo void survivals now? Cause every pub group I join tries to make it a camp run. Sorry I don't find sitting in a corner and spamming a button very fun.

Defense yes.stick by the pod. In survival holing up in a closet for 40+ minutes is certainly camping.

[Shifted]

This is just definition war, nothing more.

 

There's two ways of playing survival:

- "Every man for himself" yolo running around like chickens

- "Let's stand our ground together here" teamwork

 

obviously the latter is more efficient, whether your "here" is a whole room or just a tiny secluded corner of it.

 

Yeah, I prefer "camping", because I'm tired of people running away from the rest of the group and then dying because they were overconfident.

 

 

Pick one room and sit in it until all capsules within it are used, people. Running away from your team is dumb.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Shifted

[magusat999]

(Actually Ryjeon we have been doig this a long time before GMag). Gmag isn't even necessary for the "Sewer Camp" because in Survival the enemy is coming right for you, the more time your in it the more aggressive they come.

 

@-Amaterasu-:

Nobody said "required". Please read my post again an make a comment based on the topic. I know you are passionate about this "camping" thing - but your post has no bearing on what I wrote of the meaning to this post. Sounds like just ranting. In any case, there is no defined way to play - just as one person thinks it's fine to run around, another is okay to hold a position. it doesn't matter. The goal is to complete the goal. It isn't "right" or "wrong" to play one way or another - it's just how people play.

 

A couple of people mentioned "boredom" - well being bored does not mean it is "camping". Nor does it mean it is a "wrong" way to play. How a person feels about a style of play (not trolling, PLAYING) does not make it "WRONG to play that way. Boredom is personal - you might find something boring and another person finds exciting. it has no bearing on my definitions, as it is an emotional response and not the strategy that I am talking about.

 

@XBlackLotusX;

Have you been held hostage in a game where all of the other players decided to as you put it "camp"? How do people take it too far? And that list you put up means nothing. Your post is incomprehensible - you cannot rely on people just "getting" what you write - you have to write your whole thought out. Yes you may be right - I don't understand... your post.

[XBlackLotusX]

This is just definition war, nothing more.

 

There's two ways of playing survival:

- "Every man for himself" yolo running around like chickens

- "Let's stand our ground together here" teamwork

 

obviously the latter is more efficient, whether your "here" is a whole room or just a tiny secluded corner of it.

 

Yeah, I prefer "camping", because I'm tired of people running away from the rest of the group and then dying because they were overconfident.

 

 

Pick one room and sit in it until all capsules within it are used, people. Running away from your team is dumb.

i agree with you there aslong as vauban is not in the squad i am compleatly fine with all camping strats but vauban is not invited to the party EVER

[magusat999]

Er, yes, you absolutely can camp in survival. Whether you like camping or not, it is a particular strategy that is separate from other approaches to survival. Deciding that it's "not camping" because you're sad that some people don't like camping? That doesn't even make sense.

No, motorfirebox. It isn't because I am sad aout anything - its a logical definition. People need to get out of their emotions about it and just look at it for what it is. It is a basic, successful strategy that again was CELEBRATED BY DE when a group survived for hours. At the time they did not call it camping. It is LAZY to just call every time a group decides to stand their ground "camping", there are some game modes which it is inherent in the style needed to succeed - sorry but Defense and Survival are two of them (and in some sense Excavation and Intervention as well). Don't argue the man - argue the points. talking me down and flaming me doesn't make what I say wrong - if you want to debate what I say, then address it - making statements about someone you do not know isn't changing whether I am correct or not. It's just... trolling.

[XBlackLotusX]

(Actually Ryjeon we have been doig this a long time before GMag). Gmag isn't even necessary for the "Sewer Camp" because in Survival the enemy is coming right for you, the more time your in it the more aggressive they come.

 

@-Amaterasu-:

Nobody said "required". Please read my post again an make a comment based on the topic. I know you are passionate about this "camping" thing - but your post has no bearing on what I wrote of the meaning to this post. Sounds like just ranting. In any case, there is no defined way to play - just as one person thinks it's fine to run around, another is okay to hold a position. it doesn't matter. The goal is to complete the goal. It isn't "right" or "wrong" to play one way or another - it's just how people play.

 

A couple of people mentioned "boredom" - well being bored does not mean it is "camping". Nor does it mean it is a "wrong" way to play. How a person feels about a style of play (not trolling, PLAYING) does not make it "WRONG to play that way. Boredom is personal - you might find something boring and another person finds exciting. it has no bearing on my definitions, as it is an emotional response and not the strategy that I am talking about.

 

@XBlackLotusX;

Have you been held hostage in a game where all of the other players decided to as you put it "camp"? How do people take it too far? And that list you put up means nothing. Your post is incomprehensible - you cannot rely on people just "getting" what you write - you have to write your whole thought out. Yes you may be right - I don't understand... your post.

if you dont understand it then you dont realy need to make this thread most people who complain about campers are complaining about sitting in a tunnel with a vauban and frames to buff the effectiveness of sitting there and doing nothing

 

and actualy yeah i kinda have ive joined lobbys exspecting to have some fun then been told continuously to sit behind the vortex naturaly i dont listen and continue to fight the mission normaly anyway (while staying reasonably close aka the same tile) while i personly dont give a flying squirel about it the continuous insults because i refuse to sit in one place and pretend im playing cod while im a freaking wall runing roflcoptering space ninja tends to get under my skin from time to time.

 

also previous post you aparently dident get because it was "incomprehensible"

 

the team finds a tunnel with 1 entrance

the vauban places a vortex down

the nova speeds the enemy up

the volt puts a shield infront of you all which is duration based and cannot be killed

placement of the vortex has to be t the corner just befor the room while everyones in the room so any enemys getting close enough to the room get traped in the vortex and any stray shots get blocked by the shield from volt.

the nekros spams desicrate for loot (also can replace this spot with a loki for RD (thats radial disarm btw)

 

this makes it so you can go basicly untill your damage is worthless and the enemys just laugh at you. if thats what you ment by camping it was cool the first time cool the 2nd time but after you get asked to switch to a camp frame every 2nd mission and actualy consider selling your vauban because your ashamed you ever built him then its too far

Edited July 25, 2015 by XBlackLotusX

[CY13ERPUNK]

this a a pointless endeavor as the counter argument that you are trying to argue against holds no merit anyways...

 

so ya...

 

play however is effective or most efficient, any smart tenno would agree [and its up to DE to design missions/enemies that are challenging and interesting even versus the most efficient tenno team, its not the players job to 'play a certain way' that is flawed logic]

[magusat999]

this a a pointless endeavor as the counter argument that you are trying to argue against holds no merit anyways...

 

so ya...

 

play however is effective or most efficient, any smart tenno would agree [and its up to DE to design missions/enemies that are challenging and interesting even versus the most efficient tenno team, its not the players job to 'play a certain way' that is flawed logic]

Your first statement is incomplete so I have no idea what you are talking about or who you are talking to. If I ASSUME your talking to me, then you called my points a counter-argument. I started the debat so my points cannot be "counter" anything... moving on...

 

DE doesn not come in game and force you to play any type of way. That IS decided by the players. Play the game and you will see that is true. DE just provides the playground and basic rules of conduct. They provide the missions - but they do not tell / force us to play a certain way. Furthermore, the thread is about what some misguided people call "camping" what it is and what it is not. It is wrong to jump into threads hollering, flaming, trolling "camping" when it is not and cannot be in certain modes. One is too defined a space to call camping an the other is inherent in how you are best going to succeed. Defense, Survival and modes like them - cannot be thrown into the camping bag - that is how you play them. Since the games were designed to be played like that, it cannot be considered "camping" in those modes.

 

 

so... ya

Edited July 25, 2015 by magusat999

[XBlackLotusX]

person 1: ya know i want to go outside and sleep in a small nylon house and have a fire near it doesent that sound cool?

person 2: you mean you want to go camping right?

person 1: THATS NOT CAMPING BECAUSE ITS HOW IT WAS INTENDED TO BE

person 2: wut?

 

ok lets break this down so we can all understand because your the one who is starting to make very little sence OP

 

lets start with defence

your saying that because the game mode is based on the idea of camping near the core to protect it,

noone can say that the people who play this game mode camp near a core and protect it?

for seemingly no other reason than you dont like the word camping.

 

moving onto survival 

now small history lesson befor they increased LS spawn rates people who dident stay in the same room as everyone else where looked down upon for ruining the mission for everyone else.

 

so im not oposed to staying in the same room but lets break it down into 3 catagorys of tent raiders.

 

#1: 1 player is at each corner of the map and the only reason you played with them is for the free key.

#2: all 4 players stay in the same tile and help eachother when down and play as a team using there abilitys to  cc and damage the enemys while healing and buffing there allies

#3 hiding in a tube behind a vaubans vortex while being so bored your shift tabing out every minute or so to change song or video just to have something enjoyable happen in the next half hour.

 

 

pick one of the 3 which is the closest to what you are talking about if you think everyone wants to play like the first example then no we dont if its closer to 2 then we dont mind campers if its closer to 3 then well... noones gunna agree with you  im sorry

Edited July 25, 2015 by XBlackLotusX

[Ryjeon]

(Actually Ryjeon we have been doig this a long time before GMag). Gmag isn't even necessary for the "Sewer Camp" because in Survival the enemy is coming right for you, the more time your in it the more aggressive they come.

 

I never said it was introduced by GMag. But during the Gmag Fotm time that kind of stationary gameplay became more the norm to the point that it was hard to host missions because players would drop if it wasn't a specific kind of stacking camp. Now the recruiting experience is more varied. It's easier to find teams with more diverse playstyles, which is why I said I don't think it's as much of an issue. I enjoy the general sticking together in a room. But I don't enjoy playing confined to small tunnels or dead-ends unless the enemy pressure is dangerous enough to recommend that tactic.

[motorfirebox]

No, motorfirebox. It isn't because I am sad aout anything - its a logical definition. People need to get out of their emotions about it and just look at it for what it is. It is a basic, successful strategy that again was CELEBRATED BY DE when a group survived for hours. At the time they did not call it camping. It is LAZY to just call every time a group decides to stand their ground "camping", there are some game modes which it is inherent in the style needed to succeed - sorry but Defense and Survival are two of them (and in some sense Excavation and Intervention as well). Don't argue the man - argue the points. talking me down and flaming me doesn't make what I say wrong - if you want to debate what I say, then address it - making statements about someone you do not know isn't changing whether I am correct or not. It's just... trolling.

I'm not flaming you. I'm saying definitions of words don't change just because you don't like how some people feel about those words. Camping is an established concept in gaming. It doesn't suddenly become something else just because you don't like being called a camper.

Edited July 26, 2015 by motorfirebox

[(PSN)wonderwoman814]

Defense is a no brainer of course it is the way it is suppose to be played as.

 

You lost me in your excuse for Survival.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

[OverlordMcGeek]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/244496-the-art-of-survival-a-how-to-guide/

 

Seems I'm gonna have to play copy/pasteframe with these types of threads.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

There isn't camping in defense, but there is in survival.

The latter is an issue, but the solution lies with DE, not with players.

1) the void tile set supports camping and duscourages movement

2) current enemy design discourages movement

3) current Warframe design discourages movement

1:

This comes down to spawns and aggro mostly. Certain areas have many spawns in a relatively small area along with plenty of alcoves to set up more easily defended locations. Locations that are literally easier to defend than the defense mission. Camping solves the issue of enemy spawns and aggro. Split up teammates means that enemies may spawn unevenly and at varied locations along with them chasing teammates at random it seems. The life support mechanic alone makes camping a super viable solution. That doesn't even take into account how much easier it is.

2:

Hit scan weapons and bombard missles' tracking capabilities make it a deadly for any frames unless a hard counter is used. In other words, things like the frost globe, Loki invs, or literally killing them before they can do too much damage (i.e. why Mesa is so popular).

3:

How many Warframes have good CC capabilities that are also highly mobile in nature? We now have literally one support character (provides energy and health), but if you don't like her, you're stuck to static energy plates. All defense frames (frost and volt to my knowledge) are inherently static as well. Utility/debuff frames are slightly better in that regard. Loki; nova; and Nyx, for example, can cast-and-forget so to speak but Loki has to recast disarm for each group of enemies (not to mention that a good disarm Loki has to be protected because he can't stay invs for long). Nova's prime takes a while to reach a large area. Nyx's chaos has the same issue as Lok but also has a pseudo cooldown. All three of these frames are much more efficient when the enemies are compacted together. In other words, camping.

The fact if the matter is that plsyers are simply reacting to the rules given to them by DE.

[CY13ERPUNK]

Your first statement is incomplete so I have no idea what you are talking about or who you are talking to. If I ASSUME your talking to me, then you called my points a counter-argument. I started the debat so my points cannot be "counter" anything... moving on...

 

DE doesn not come in game and force you to play any type of way. That IS decided by the players. Play the game and you will see that is true. DE just provides the playground and basic rules of conduct. They provide the missions - but they do not tell / force us to play a certain way. Furthermore, the thread is about what some misguided people call "camping" what it is and what it is not. It is wrong to jump into threads hollering, flaming, trolling "camping" when it is not and cannot be in certain modes. One is too defined a space to call camping an the other is inherent in how you are best going to succeed. Defense, Survival and modes like them - cannot be thrown into the camping bag - that is how you play them. Since the games were designed to be played like that, it cannot be considered "camping" in those modes.

 

 

so... ya

 

1st thing, yer wrong 

 

2nd thing, i was agreeing with you

 

3rd thing, yer wrong

 

4th thing, dont assume so much and stop taking things so personally

 

5th thing, yer welcome

 

6th thing, yes i know that you dont think ive done anything to say 'yer welcome' for, but it will come in time, maybe

 

=]