Covert Lethality And Excalibur

[shut]

Stealth attacks, or Stealth finishers? What was the wording exactly?

Any sort of damage from your melee weapon on an unaware enemy. So for example, if you cast Radial Blind and do a ground slam, then every enemy within the slam radius will be instakilled.

OT:

I don't mind the whole OHKO thing (seriously, whose waves DON'T already oneshot every blind enemy that they hit?); it's just the +100% final damage from the CL mod that bothers me. It literally doubles your weapon's final damage, after all base damage and elemental modifications and all that, regardless of whether enemies are blind or not-- meaning that Excal players are literally gimping themselves by not using a dagger with this mod equipped. That's not okay for the frame who's supposed to be equally viable with every melee weapon.

I think the instakill portion should stay as is, but the +100% final damage should be removed from the mod. All daggers should then have their base damage doubled to compensate.

The result is that daggers stay nice and viable for general use as they are now, without causing any extreme build imbalances for EB.

Edited August 5, 2015 by SortaRandom

[Epicagemo]

Yeah I tested this out, EB is impractical for AFK Farms, but decent for normal gameplay. Blind, and OHKO. Great for manics, as you don't have to watch them warp around like loonies. It's also fun to take out level 95 gunners/bombards with a swipe of E (gunners have 81k HP at level 85)... but then again, not much of a real application. You can go to infinite, but that's if you can survive.

 

I tried using mirage's blind, and it might've been my carrier/sweeper aggro, so it wasn't working half the time.

[Magneu]

I tried it. It's way too good. 200% strength, max raw damage Karyst (with Covert Lethality), and a single Blind let me one shot level 95 Gunners and Bombards alike with the waves (which are 70% or so slash damage). Didn't test actual finishers, but I imagine they would be super strong too.

 

Even without that interaction, Covert Lethality acts as a 200% damage multiplier for Exalted Blade, now making daggers the sword frame's weapon of choice. Nice.

[RexRgisIocus]

Or DE could just make Exalted Blade not use a mod for daggers when it is a sword. It shouldn't even be using syndicate mods that are specific for a weapon (Bright Purity, Justice Blades, etc).

[shut]

Or DE could just make Exalted Blade not use a mod for daggers when it is a sword. It shouldn't even be using syndicate mods that are specific for a weapon (Bright Purity, Justice Blades, etc).

That would fix CL Daggers making EB stupidly strong compared to standard EBs, but it would introduce the issue of CL Daggers making EB stupidly weak compared to standard EBs. We'd just end up with another Glaive issue, where using the weapon with its exclusive mods completely gimps your 4 (which should NOT be happening for Excal, regardless of your weapon choice).

It would be better to let the mod apply as normal, but change some stats around so that it works well on the weapon it's intended for while not making EB overpowered.

As I mentioned above-- just remove the "+100% final damage" component from CL and double the base damage of all daggers. Problem solved; Covert Lethality EB is now brought into line with other EBs (not too strong or too weak) without dagger weapons having to suffer.

Edited August 5, 2015 by SortaRandom

[Monster-T]

I tried it. It's way too good. 200% strength, max raw damage Karyst (with Covert Lethality), and a single Blind let me one shot level 95 Gunners and Bombards alike with the waves (which are 70% or so slash damage). Didn't test actual finishers, but I imagine they would be super strong too.

 

Even without that interaction, Covert Lethality acts as a 200% damage multiplier for Exalted Blade, now making daggers the sword frame's weapon of choice. Nice.

I tried it with Karyst too, but I do less damage than with a Prisma Skana...

[Empiren]

I tried it. It's way too good. 200% strength, max raw damage Karyst (with Covert Lethality), and a single Blind let me one shot level 95 Gunners and Bombards alike with the waves (which are 70% or so slash damage). Didn't test actual finishers, but I imagine they would be super strong too.

 

Even without that interaction, Covert Lethality acts as a 200% damage multiplier for Exalted Blade, now making daggers the sword frame's weapon of choice. Nice.

You don't understand. Blind already gives you stealth multipliers. The mod wouldn't make that much of a difference.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

You don't understand. Blind already gives you stealth multipliers. The mod wouldn't make that much of a difference.

I think they are saying Excalibur with No Power strength and only running Covert Lethality as only melee mod is stronger than running nodded Prisma Skana.

But you are saying a Priama skana with only Bright Purity (or anybminimally modded Melee weapon)and No power strength on Excalibur is the same killing efficiency as Covert Lethality + No power strength Excalibur.

They seem to be saying Covert Lethality offers incredible damage with very low mod-setup because of the mechanics tied to the mod, without the Blind interaction. 100% Extra damage from Covert doubles Exalted Blade damage outside of blind.

& you are saying the damage dealt is roughly the same as any other minimally modded melee/Excalibur setup, but you are including Blinf mechanics?

Edited August 6, 2015 by (PS4)MrNishi

[Magneu]

You don't understand. Blind already gives you stealth multipliers. The mod wouldn't make that much of a difference.

Aside from the massive damage increase to EB from Covert Lethality, there's an additional 400% damage increase on blinded enemies. For comparison, with a max damage Prisma Skana/185% Excalibur, I was critting for 44k on blinded level 95 Gunners. With max damage Karyst/200% strength, I was critting for over 85k against the same enemy. That big of a power gap is insane.

[Sakatchi]

Aside from the massive damage increase to EB from Covert Lethality, there's an additional 400% damage increase on blinded enemies. For comparison, with a max damage Prisma Skana/185% Excalibur, I was critting for 44k on blinded level 95 Gunners. With max damage Karyst/200% strength, I was critting for over 85k against the same enemy. That big of a power gap is insane.

Radial blind already one hits things, because it sets them up for finishers.

Lv 95 means nothing, cause finishers ignore armor.

While those are some nice numbers, they are not op, cause you can only do them when you set them up with radial blind, and they can only be used on a family of weapons that have been ignored for years.

When you radial blind something, it will die when you hit it with a mele weapon anyway, a bigger number literaly means nothing.

(I can't stress this point enough, since it seems to elude people)

You are complaining about a 85k crit, which is litteraly nothing, and crit logic is all over the place.

Finishers kill things in one hit.

 

Tldr, The mod is blanaced.

[Magneu]

Radial blind already one hits things, because it sets them up for finishers.

Lv 95 means nothing, cause finishers ignore armor.

While those are some nice numbers, they are not op, cause you can only do them when you set them up with radial blind, and they can only be used on a family of weapons that have been ignored for years.

When you radial blind something, it will die when you hit it with a mele weapon anyway, a bigger number literaly means nothing.

(I can't stress this point enough, since it seems to elude people)

You are complaining about a 85k crit, which is litteraly nothing, and crit logic is all over the place.

Finishers kill things in one hit.

 

Tldr, The mod is blanaced.

Those numbers and OHKO aren't finishers. They were the waves.

[Sakatchi]

Those numbers and OHKO aren't finishers. They were the waves.

Well I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

 

Using exalted blade to mesure a mods power isn't the best way to test it, due to it scaling from warframe, and weapon mods, and auras.

[(PSN)inuyasha279]

They'll die from a hit with radial blind anyway, covert lethality mostly affects new players at best.

[Monster-T]

I think they are saying Excalibur with No Power strength and only running Covert Lethality as only melee mod is stronger than running nodded Prisma Skana.

But you are saying a Priama skana with only Bright Purity (or anybminimally modded Melee weapon)and No power strength on Excalibur is the same killing efficiency as Covert Lethality + No power strength Excalibur.

They seem to be saying Covert Lethality offers incredible damage with very low mod-setup because of the mechanics tied to the mod, without the Blind interaction. 100% Extra damage from Covert doubles Exalted Blade damage outside of blind.

& you are saying the damage dealt is roughly the same as any other minimally modded melee/Excalibur setup, but you are including Blinf mechanics?

I tested it with Prisma Skana, Prisma Dual Cleaver, Karyst and Heat Dagger and a 150% power strength build.

With Karyst and Covert Lethality I do on blinded targets around 50k damage per wave

With Prisma Skana or Prisma Dual Cleavers I do around 70k damage per wave

So its obviously not as strong as a normal weapon build for Exalted Blade, afaik.

[shut]

I tested it with Prisma Skana, Prisma Dual Cleaver, Karyst and Heat Dagger and a 150% power strength build.

With Karyst and Covert Lethality I do on blinded targets around 50k damage per wave

With Prisma Skana or Prisma Dual Cleavers I do around 70k damage per wave

So its obviously not as strong as a normal weapon build for Exalted Blade, afaik.

Test them on level 95 Manics or some other sort of enemy that can actually survive a critical Prisma Skana/Cleaver wave when blind.

The difference between the two builds is that CL forces instakills on blind enemies (rendering the damage number meaningless, as the damage is effectively infinity).

Out of curiosity, how does the damage compare on non-blind enemies? Unless the formula changed with the last hotfix, a CL Dagger EB should be doing vastly more damage than any other EB with a similar build (since CL doubles the weapon's unmodded base damage).

[Monster-T]

Test them on level 95 Manics or some other sort of enemy that can actually survive a critical Prisma Skana/Cleaver wave when blind.

The difference between the two builds is that CL forces instakills on blind enemies (rendering the damage number meaningless, as the damage is effectively infinity).

Out of curiosity, how does the damage compare on non-blind enemies? Unless the formula changed with the last hotfix, a CL Dagger EB should be doing vastly more damage than any other EB with a similar build (since CL doubles the weapon's unmodded base damage).

I will test it with high level enemys asap.

And to your last sentence; in my tests the damage of normale waves was with daggers around 6k and with said Prisma weapons around 7k. So for a non-blind build Prisma Skana, Prisma Cleavers and Mire are definately better than daggers.

[shut]

I will test it with high level enemys asap.

And to your last sentence; in my tests the damage of normale waves was with daggers around 6k and with said Prisma weapons around 7k. So for a non-blind build Prisma Skana, Prisma Cleavers and Mire are definately better than daggers.

Were your builds for the dagger and prismas identical, or are you comparing a regular dagger build to a critical Prisma build or something?

If it's not too much trouble, could you test out EB's damage with identical builds on both weapons, except with an empty slot on the Prisma where CL would have been on the dagger? Just to verify how the formula works.

Unless the CL formula changed with 17.0.4 or something, the dagger EB should deal exactly double the prisma EB's damage.

Edited August 7, 2015 by SortaRandom

[Monster-T]

Were your builds for the dagger and prismas identical, or are you comparing a regular dagger build to a critical Prisma build or something?

If it's not too much trouble, could you test out EB's damage with identical builds on both weapons, except with an empty slot on the Prisma where CL would have been on the dagger? Just to verify how the formula works.

Unless the CL formula changed with 17.0.4 or something, the dagger EB should deal exactly double the prisma EB's damage.

I'm back from testing builds with level 85 Bombards. Dagger and Prisma Cleaver were identical modded with one difference: daggers with Covert Lethality and Cleavers with their augment.

My Excal Build was also identical. This time I've used 100% power strength.

With Prisma Cleavers on a blinded level 85 Bombard I've done around 1600 damage per wave, so I've needed multiple waves to kill this enemy.

With Karyst I've done around 29.000 damage per wave and it was a oneshot.

So... seems that Covert Lethality is really killing on stealth hit.

With Prisma Cleavers on a non-blinded level 85 Bombard I've done 220 damage per wave.

With Karyst I've done under the same circumstances 281 damge per wave.

So it seems that your theory is right.

EDIT: Tested it with a max range/duration build (means 40% power strength) and I still oneshot a blinded level 85 Bombard with a wave (dagger build).

EDIT 2: Same build on a level 85 Juggernaut Behemoth; 380.000 damage (oneshot).

Edited August 7, 2015 by Monster-T

[shut]

I'm back from testing builds with level 85 Bombards. Dagger and Prisma Cleaver were identical modded with one difference: daggers with Covert Lethality and Cleavers with their augment.

My Excal Build was also identical. This time I've used 100% power strength.

With Prisma Cleavers on a blinded level 85 Bombard I've done around 1600 damage per wave, so I've needed multiple waves to kill this enemy.

With Karyst I've done around 29.000 damage per wave and it was a oneshot.

So... seems that Covert Lethality is really killing on stealth hit.

With Prisma Cleavers on a non-blinded level 85 Bombard I've done 220 damage per wave.

With Karyst I've done under the same circumstances 281 damge per wave.

So it seems that your theory is right.

EDIT: Tested it with a max range/duration build (means 40% power strength) and I still oneshot a blinded level 85 Bombard with a wave (dagger build).

EDIT 2: Same build on a level 85 Juggernaut Behemoth; 380.000 damage (oneshot).

Sweet, thanks!

I'm still not sure about how CL treats non-stealthed attacks, though. Would it be possible for you to test out EB's damage using the same build on both weapons (e.g. Pressure point, the two crit mods, and an element), but the only difference being CL slapped onto the dagger as well? So, no syndicate mod for the prismas?

This way, we can see the difference between a weapon that has CL and a weapon that doesn't have CL with no other modifiers. If the formula from a few days ago still applies, the CL build should do exactly double the damage of the non-CL build on the same non-blinded enemy.

Thanks!

And sorry about pestering you with requests, by the way! I'd test this myself, but I can't seem to find a CL mod no matter how many weapons I max out in spy missions.

(By the way-- Bright Purity and Justice Blades each add 100% base damage, right? Like, they modify the damage in the exact same way that Spoiled Strike does?)

[(PSN)MrNishi]

I'm back from testing builds with level 85 Bombards. Dagger and Prisma Cleaver were identical modded with one difference: daggers with Covert Lethality and Cleavers with their augment.

My Excal Build was also identical. This time I've used 100% power strength.

With Prisma Cleavers on a blinded level 85 Bombard I've done around 1600 damage per wave, so I've needed multiple waves to kill this enemy.

With Karyst I've done around 29.000 damage per wave and it was a oneshot.

So... seems that Covert Lethality is really killing on stealth hit.

With Prisma Cleavers on a non-blinded level 85 Bombard I've done 220 damage per wave.

With Karyst I've done under the same circumstances 281 damge per wave.

So it seems that your theory is right.

EDIT: Tested it with a max range/duration build (means 40% power strength) and I still oneshot a blinded level 85 Bombard with a wave (dagger build).

EDIT 2: Same build on a level 85 Juggernaut Behemoth; 380.000 damage (oneshot).

Thank you for the follow up testing.

This is what we were sort-of hinting at.....Covert Lethality requires No Powerstrength on Excalibur for an efficient kill build.

Dark Dagger with Augment + Covert has the beat synergy(currently)

Edit:

Synergy with Covert Lethality is broken....when looking at all of Excalibur's Augments:

Surging Dash adding to melee hit counter: additional melee counter to hit higher tier damage....not needed with 1-hit kill

Radiant Finish: Not needed with 1-hit kill

Furious Javelin: Not needed with 1-hit kill

Edited August 7, 2015 by (PS4)MrNishi

[Kcham375]

Sweet, thanks!

I'm still not sure about how CL treats non-stealthed attacks, though. Would it be possible for you to test out EB's damage using the same build on both weapons (e.g. Pressure point, the two crit mods, and an element), but the only difference being CL slapped onto the dagger as well? So, no syndicate mod for the prismas?

This way, we can see the difference between a weapon that has CL and a weapon that doesn't have CL with no other modifiers. If the formula from a few days ago still applies, the CL build should do exactly double the damage of the non-CL build on the same non-blinded enemy.

Thanks!

And sorry about pestering you with requests, by the way! I'd test this myself, but I can't seem to find a CL mod no matter how many weapons I max out in spy missions.

(By the way-- Bright Purity and Justice Blades each add 100% base damage, right? Like, they modify the damage in the exact same way that Spoiled Strike does?)

I don't think that CL adds 100% extra damage doubling your modded weapons strength, I believe it only adds 100 flat extra damage to your weapon.

[shut]

I don't think that CL adds 100% extra damage doubling your modded weapons strength, I believe it only adds 100 flat extra damage to your weapon.

 

Haha, I actually got the mod and tested this out just yesterday. Only with a Dark Dagger, but I'm certain that the same principle applies to other daggers and EB as well.

 

 

- CL's old formula (tested by tinyranitar) caused the weapon's final damage, mods and all, to be exactly double what it was before.

 

- CL's new formula (changed in one of the recent hotfixes) causes the mod to add a flat +100 onto the final base damage of your weapon.

So, say you've got a Dark Dagger (35 base damage) with Pressure Point (+120% base damage) equipped. It ends up with a final base damage of 35 * (1 + 1.20) = 77 base damage.

Now, slap a Covert Lethality onto there. The Dark Dagger ends up with a final base damage of (35 * (1 + 1.20)) + 100 = 177 final base damage. All elemental mods will scale from this number. 

 

The end result of the new CL formula is that Dagger-type weapons are now even more powerful than they were on U17.0.0, and CL-built Exalted Blades have been toned down significantly to be in line with other weapon builds. Instead of having doubled final damage, CL-built Exalted Blades now simply have a "+100 final base damage" slapped on, which really isn't much difference considering that EB has 250 base damage before Pressure Point. Generally, you'd get more damage from an Element mod.

CL-built EBs gain the ability to oneshot any blind enemy with ease (Juggs and Manics included), at the cost of a mildly noticeable chunk of damage on non-blind enemies. It's a good tradeoff.

 

^{(Disclaimer: I haven't tested how CL interacts with Power Strength at all. Does Power Strength only affect the "250 base damage" of the weapon, or does it affect the final damage values of the weapon? Since CL's formula changed to what it is now, the two cases are no longer mathematically equivalent.}

^{I also didn't test to see how Covert Lethality affects Slide Attacks, Wall Attacks, etc.)}

 

 

 

 

-- tl;dr --

Covert Lethality's formula changed with a recent hotfix. It's more powerful than ever on daggers, but not as effective on Exalted Blade as before.

This is good. CL-built EBs now serve a different role from usual EBs without being too strong or too weak.

 

The new damage formula for weapons (very simplified) appears to be:

final base damage = (base damage) * (1 + Pressure Point + Spoiled Strike) + (Covert Lethality),

where:

- final base damage = the number that Elemental mods will scale off of,

- base damage = the total unmodded base damage of the weapon,

- Pressure Point = 1.2 if a maxed Pressure Point is active,

- Spoiled Strike = 1.0 if a maxed Spoiled Strike is active,

- Covert Lethality = 100.0 if a maxed Covert Lethality is active.

 

If someone can confirm or correct this formula, it would be hugely appreciated!

 

What I'm not sure of:

- How does Power Strength come into play when using Exalted Blade?

- How does Covert Lethality affect slide attacks, wall attacks, and slam attacks?

- How does Covert Lethality affect slide attacks, wall attacks, and slam attacks with modified Power Strength when using Exalted Blade?

 

If someone could test this out (or link us to a thread in which someone has done so), that would be awesome!

Edited August 12, 2015 by SortaRandom

[Empiren]

Uh.......

 

Well ok there is a bunch of problems in this thread.

 

A) Only mods count towards EB. So having a "maxed prisma skana" is no different than having a normal skana. 

B) Currently I'd argue Jaw Sword or Dual Cleavers  are the current best, as it offers Justice/Truth procs + 100% damage.

 

Honestly if you want to max out EB do this:

 

1. Duration/Efficiency/Power strength balance (on frame).

(I'd prefer duration over strength if you don't have the mods to balance, as RB is super important to the EB builds).

 

2. Pick whatever melee weapon that benefits from mods(jaw sword/cleavers) or daggers. Don't even bother with the best base melee damage or w/e, it's irrelevant to EB's damage.

3. Use the RB augment.

4. Currently I'm not sure what to mod, but I'm going to say:

-Base damage

-Crit mods

-Berserker

-Two elements

-Attack speed.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Empiren

[Kcham375]

 

Haha, I actually got the mod and tested this out just yesterday. Only with a Dark Dagger, but I'm certain that the same principle applies to other daggers and EB as well.

 

 

- CL's old formula (tested by tinyranitar) caused the weapon's final damage, mods and all, to be exactly double what it was before.

 

- CL's new formula (changed in one of the recent hotfixes) causes the mod to add a flat +100 onto the final base damage of your weapon.

So, say you've got a Dark Dagger (35 base damage) with Pressure Point (+120% base damage) equipped. It ends up with a final base damage of 35 * (1 + 1.20) = 77 base damage.

Now, slap a Covert Lethality onto there. The Dark Dagger ends up with a final base damage of (35 * (1 + 1.20)) + 100 = 177 final base damage. All elemental mods will scale from this number. 

 

The end result of the new CL formula is that Dagger-type weapons are now even more powerful than they were on U17.0.0, and CL-built Exalted Blades have been toned down significantly to be in line with other weapon builds. Instead of having doubled final damage, CL-built Exalted Blades now simply have a "+100 final base damage" slapped on, which really isn't much difference considering that EB has 250 base damage before Pressure Point. Generally, you'd get more damage from an Element mod.

CL-built EBs gain the ability to oneshot any blind enemy with ease (Juggs and Manics included), at the cost of a mildly noticeable chunk of damage on non-blind enemies. It's a good tradeoff.

 

^{(Disclaimer: I haven't tested how CL interacts with Power Strength at all. Does Power Strength only affect the "250 base damage" of the weapon, or does it affect the final damage values of the weapon? Since CL's formula changed to what it is now, the two cases are no longer mathematically equivalent.}

^{I also didn't test to see how Covert Lethality affects Slide Attacks, Wall Attacks, etc.)}

 

 

 

 

-- tl;dr --

Covert Lethality's formula changed with a recent hotfix. It's more powerful than ever on daggers, but not as effective on Exalted Blade as before.

This is good. CL-built EBs now serve a different role from usual EBs without being too strong or too weak.

 

The new damage formula for weapons (very simplified) appears to be:

final base damage = (base damage) * (1 + Pressure Point + Spoiled Strike) + (Covert Lethality),

where:

- final base damage = the number that Elemental mods will scale off of,

- base damage = the total unmodded base damage of the weapon,

- Pressure Point = 1.2 if a maxed Pressure Point is active,

- Spoiled Strike = 1.0 if a maxed Spoiled Strike is active,

- Covert Lethality = 100.0 if a maxed Covert Lethality is active.

 

If someone can confirm or correct this formula, it would be hugely appreciated!

 

What I'm not sure of:

- How does Power Strength come into play when using Exalted Blade?

- How does Covert Lethality affect slide attacks, wall attacks, and slam attacks?

- How does Covert Lethality affect slide attacks, wall attacks, and slam attacks with modified Power Strength when using Exalted Blade?

 

If someone could test this out (or link us to a thread in which someone has done so), that would be awesome!

ohh, thx for the info

very informative