This Is Not The Type Of Feedback You Are Looking For After All Your Work With U8 - Welcome To Warfarmers

[EchoLG]

Man, you are in for a treat, let me tell you.

Just not used to it I guess, also it is realy saddening to see it happen to this game which I've become realy fond of.

Edited May 25, 2013 by EchoLG

[Urash]

 

 

You had me at that picture. I didn't even read a thing you said, but I agree with it all, probably.

[MoonicusMaximus]

So spelling it out: Farming is not the issue. Rng is not the issue.

The issue is:

- Pushing your ENTIRE loot table into rng which then gives you a chance measured in 68 decimals to obtain something specific.

- Having no loot scaling with difficulty, making you completely indifferent towards where you are and what you are doing.

- Having boss tier drops such as blueprints drop with rng from a boss that dies from two clips in the face, spending 99.8% of your "farming time" with running to or from the boss room, having no team work, no boss fight, no nothing in the process.

- Having 0 team work or ANY content that would force you to do team work, leaving 3 other players on your solo map just for the lulz of it cause you are perfectly able to one shot enemies or nuke an entire room at the touch of a single button

- 0 stopping power for enemies even at higher levels making you able to slash dash through the entire map

- Pushing your ENTIRE loot table into rng which then gives you a chance measured in 68 decimals to obtain something specific.

Actually, loot tables do have favored drop mods depending on the faction. Infested have higher chances of dropping skill mods, which is why you see people complaining about nothing but skill mod drops seeing as all they do is play Xini and expect multishots, or something like that. If you're looking for a specific mod, then you can technically focus your attention on the faction that has the highest chance of dropping it. It's still RNG, but that's what the game is built around at the moment.

- Having no loot scaling with difficulty, making you completely indifferent towards where you are and what you are doing.

Rarer mods have higher chances of dropping at higher levels. You have more of a chance of getting Split Barrel from Kiste than you would Kappa. It's still RNG, though. But seeing as you've stated that's not a problem, I agree.

- Having boss tier drops such as blueprints drop with rng from a boss that dies from two clips in the face, spending 99.8% of your "farming time" with running to or from the boss room, having no team work, no boss fight, no nothing in the process.

DE has already said that they plan to make bosses more challenging and engaging. The new Lech Kril is a good start.

- Having 0 team work or ANY content that would force you to do team work, leaving 3 other players on your solo map just for the lulz of it cause you are perfectly able to one shot enemies or nuke an entire room at the touch of a single button

- 0 stopping power for enemies even at higher levels making you able to slash dash through the entire map

I'm confused. Clearing out a larger room of enemies with your group, that's not teamwork? In the sense of this game, which is meant to be a fast, run-and-gun experience, asking for high levels of teamwork would require a different sort of game entirely. Something much slower, to facilitate the need for cooperation on a deep level... which really isn't what Warframe is built to do.

---

All in all, I get that you're asking for more challenge, though, and that much I agree with. Warframe could be more challenging, and DE has already said that they want to make it more challenging to players. U8 won't be the last update. Maybe you can start giving some actual suggestions as to what sort of content you'd like to see, rather than simply complain that it isn't there; that would help everybody, and would be a lot easier for people such as myself to get behind, rather than silly images.

Edited May 25, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Vhegna]

End game or at least a bit of depth to the game?

Lets see...

- Levels that require you to have a bit of thinking instead of just rushing through (by whatever means, including mazes, climbing hazards, movement challenges)

- Actual boss fights that require either team work (due to difficulty) or brains (with non direct damage kills and/or shooting specific parts/combination of parts), instead of just shooting at the direction of the boss which will either one shot you, or look in your direction with a tear in its eye.

- Raids that require more than 4 players

- Loot scaling with difficulty increase so there is at least SOME merit to the fact that im killing stuff in a level 50+ mission.

- At least SOME fixed drops instead of painting rng onto EVERYTHING (primary example: wave 75 for an uncommon hellfire mod. well ****ing done)

- Maps with a difficulty that require roles and/or team tactics (instead of having 4 solo players with 0 communication on one map mowing down everything without even taking damage to health)

- Synergy and frame ability combos i.e. mag's bullet attractor and excalibur's radial javelin.

- Lore/collectibles

- Achievements and effort related skins/colors/items/whatever

- Missions that are on par with your maxed/oc gear (in clear text: Hardcore content for those who have already hit the level cap)

- Clan related missions/events

- Some form of competitive mode between clans

- etc

 

If i were to focus only on the question of "end game", then my answer can be summarized in 3 major points:

1. There is no team play nor any form of content that would require you to do so

2. Bosses are worthless and difficulty/reward scaling is completely broken and/or nonexistent

3. Lack of non RNG related items - whether its achievements, fixed drops, fixed wave loot or whatever, having only rng burns your players out

 

Its hard to compare warframe to other MMOs on the market, but there are also generic elements which hold true never the less, such as difficulty, team play, and reason/goal to work towards. Having no difficulty scaling/generally 0 challenge in the game destroys the first and second while rng destroys the third. Its also worth to mention that while RNG will keep your players busy for a lot longer than fixed or higher percentage drops, it will also burn them out a hundred times quicker since they will be doing the same thing over and over again for no form of reward or success. This problem ofc multiplies when its matched up with the fact that difficulty is nonexistent and you can run across maps without firing a single shot

 

there ya go guy i thinks hes repeated himself quite enough u made good points ^^^^that post right there u know the one on the first page are also suggestions your comment at the end of your post was a unnecessary and yes fast paced action run and gun thing is cool nevertheless all his points are much stronger imo theres no point to clans(CURRENTLY)besides dojos  and hes stated every reason why there isnt already this game is still in beta and there's still alot of change coming just growing pains i think   

[Dwarfstar]

The void key drop rate is absolutely $&*&*#(%&. I've done probably 25+ boss kills and 15-20 or more defense missions. Even killed 2 stalkers. Nothing.

 

The dojo build requirements are an absolute joke.

 

New content I've seen so far in U8: I have a Kunai in build. Even that took me a dozen Vor runs to get the 3 morphics I was missing.

 

Vauban still bugged to S#&$ and my Trinity got nerfed. Great fun all around.

[Dueler]

Read through the entire thread so far and I must say, OP I am impressed. Not only did you point out a problem, but you presented solutions and counter-arguments all the way. Great point with the "farming without entertainment value" bit, I support you.

[KageNoShini]

The void key drop rate is absolutely $&*&*#(%&. I've done probably 25+ boss kills and 15-20 or more defense missions. Even killed 2 stalkers. Nothing.

I got 2 keys from 2 runs of killiken to wave 5, so its not too bad, better than the banshee helm in my opinion, and even more so better than Vauban.

 

Dojo build reqs are a bit much for smaller clans, for larger clans its fine, which is the problem, a scaling based on clan size would be a nice addition, problem is how they should scale.

 

New content is extensively farm based, in that you have to farm for an item, in order to farm for the item you want, and rinse/repeat, which is wrong imo.

 

Yes, Vauban is glitchy, but what happened to trin?

[11.11.11]

 

 

 

Farm in rusty ships.

 

 

 

 

Farm in darn sexy rusty ships, that make you want to cry. FOR THE FATHERLAND! Everytime you murder a grineer in their sceneic command centre.

 

Oh and some of them have giant, pounding,....d..drills..... what's not to love? 

 

Seriously these new tilesets are jawdropping. The mappers at least deserve a pat on the back. 

 

 

I must say I agree with the OP for the most part though. While it seems wrong to be angry at DE for having an unfinished beta game, it really has got to the point where a lot of players have been around long enough to only be interested in what's added with each new update. And when some cool things are added that require us to go back to the same old tedium of running through missions over and over while praying to the RNG gods, it just seems hardly worth the effort. I've got time to spare, but doing the same thing over and over for a chance at a reward? No thanks, I'll just flick pencils at the walls. At least I'm garunteed results that way :| 

 

 

 

 

 

If i were to take over warframe's problems to WoW, then it would look like the following:

You wind up alone at the end game raid boss, run through the map without killing anything, win, get nothing, then repeat this sequence till the object of your desire drops, then you go and grind mats for it for 6 weeks, craft it for 3 days, then equip it, feel good about it for 5 minutes and then cancel your account cause you have nothing to do for the next 6 months except looking good in the item set you have no effort soloed together from the hardest game content available.

 

 

 

 

This, a thousand times this. This is what is killing the enjoyment of players with one or two lvl 30 frames and gear. There just isn't any joy in the process leading to the potential for a chance at maybe getting a reward. 

Edited May 25, 2013 by 11.11.11

[Aerensiniac]

- Pushing your ENTIRE loot table into rng which then gives you a chance measured in 68 decimals to obtain something specific.

Actually, loot tables do have favored drop mods depending on the faction. Infested have higher chances of dropping skill mods, which is why you see people complaining about nothing but skill mod drops seeing as all they do is play Xini and expect multishots, or something like that. If you're looking for a specific mod, then you can technically focus your attention on the faction that has the highest chance of dropping it. It's still RNG, but that's what the game is built around at the moment.

It would be nice to know what this faction advantage amounts to in specific numbers. I would say that its nil, zero, nada, nicthz, semmi but that would be biased.

Thing is, that whatever this system does (if its there at all) is nothing that would be worth consideration (in my honest ~400 hour experience)

I have had exactly 378 hours game play when my first flow mod dropped from a grineer even tho its listed as a corpus specific drop, and im not even going to go into the details of how many corpus defenses i have grinded in order to get that S#&$ mod.

 

So even if this holds true and actually does something that is not measured in an influence of 0.1% its still as far from resolving the problem with having all drops pressed into one single rng table as far as it can get.

 

- Having no loot scaling with difficulty, making you completely indifferent towards where you are and what you are doing.

Rarer mods have higher chances of dropping at higher levels. You have more of a chance of getting Split Barrel from Kiste than you would Kappa. It's still RNG, though. But seeing as you've stated that's not a problem, I agree.

Same thing as above. It would be nice to know the exact numbers.

As far as i know this works only in endless defense and even in ed only till wave 20 cause as steve said thats the borderline after which your drop rates are normalized.

But we agree. Even if its true, its as far from resolving the problem.

 

- Having boss tier drops such as blueprints drop with rng from a boss that dies from two clips in the face, spending 99.8% of your "farming time" with running to or from the boss room, having no team work, no boss fight, no nothing in the process.

DE has already said that they plan to make bosses more challenging and engaging. The new Lech Kril is a good start.

Would be glad and lets hope so.

 

- Having 0 team work or ANY content that would force you to do team work, leaving 3 other players on your solo map just for the lulz of it cause you are perfectly able to one shot enemies or nuke an entire room at the touch of a single button

- 0 stopping power for enemies even at higher levels making you able to slash dash through the entire map

I'm confused. Clearing out a larger room of enemies with your group, that's not teamwork? In the sense of this game, which is meant to be a fast, run-and-gun experience, asking for high levels of teamwork would require a different sort of game entirely. Something much slower, to facilitate the need for cooperation on a deep level... which really isn't what Warframe is built to do.

No, it reads: "nuke an entire room at the touch of a single button".

Its not clearing out a room with team play, team effort, anything even remotely connected to team work.

Its about running or sliding into the room's center and pressing 4 just to watch everything die right away, and the only way the word "team" is coming into play here, is by competing who will be the fastest to do this process and no effort one shot the entire room.

 

In regards of the rest: High level teamwork doesnt really require "a different sort of game".

Even in worst case scenario, it would be about fixing up a working threat/aggro system or introducing some form of class system to the game, even if its driven only by armor and shield values.

With everything being said: We are not even talking about a "high level" of team work. What we are talking about here is that there is NO team work of any form in warframe.

 

There are 4 lawn mowers and one square of a map full with gras- i mean enemies.

Thats all the team play value warframe offers, but unlike in real life where you would be done 4 times faster by playing with 4 lawns mowers, in warframe, you wont even get speed out of the process cause you will be spending your time running towards objective points throughout the entire time.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[0shi]

OP, you've got it absolutely right, and your later post which re-iterates and clarifies your thoughts is even better.

Thank you for your time.

[ZWarhammer]

Well put yo farming shoes on cause that's exactly what we got right now e.e

[chuuburg]

+1 Warfarmville

[MyXmaN]

How about we write some brief questions about this and ask them in the next livestream?

 

Like these:

1) will there ever be some sort of endgame not tied to farming everything over and over?

2) will there ever be some need of teamwork like in more hardcore games (and yes, L4D is more hardcore)?

3) will rewards ever scale to difficulty (wave 50 hellfire mod syndrome)?

 

Because we need to provide them with feedback. Feedback right to the face.

 

What i want is more challenging, more hardcore, more interesting levels.

More story/lore/plot.

More diversity in game.

More atmosphere.

More feeling like a space ninja, not a gold farmer from world of whatever.

Edited May 25, 2013 by MyXmaN

[Tangerine]

I thought up an idea for some gameplay variation couple months ago and posted it in another thread. Here's the picture.

 

 

I just like the idea of indirect PvP. Don't need to worry about balance in PvE but retains the dynamic entertainment that is PvP.

[D3thpool]

I expected a somewhat troll post...but oh god this is too much truth. cannot agree more.

+1 from me

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

More better enemies and AI, less bullet sponges.

[MyXmaN]

So many good suggestions... Are they even looked at?

[Xyfer]

I think if they implement proper quests and storyline system to get certain items, would be much better than this current endless farming.

[Xyfer]

I thought up an idea for some gameplay variation couple months ago and posted it in another thread. Here's the picture.

 

 

I just like the idea of indirect PvP. Don't need to worry about balance in PvE but retains the dynamic entertainment that is PvP.

This is exactly like planetside 2, it'll end up becoming pay 2 win, because better guns means more kills.

[rksk16it]

<Large post comparing WoW to warframe>

 

Agree with everything OP has said. I am not a WoW fanboy, in fact I hate WoW.. and the reason is : farming and RNG.

 

I read what OP has said that he doesnt really hate farming/RNG, but he hates it when they are the ONLY thing in the game. Well, I will go ahead and say this : I HATE farming, I dont even want to kill 1 ***in mob for anything, I would like an option to have everything added to my inventory instantly so I can PLAY the game and NOT farm.

 

I left WoW to play MOBAs because they have what I am interested in, pvp + no bs farming. Then I was looking for a game where I can do PvE, just like we do in MOBAs, that is, you queue in a lobby, the matchmaker puts you in a group, and we do a defense/raid mission. Players get to choose a hero, and some heroes are damage, some heal, some tank etc.

 

Warframe, at first appeared to suit me, I realized that I will need to farm for warframes/weapons, so to prevent farming I spent some plat and bought a warframe (saryn) and a weapon (glaive). Then I played and played, then I saw the drop rate of mods. That was a bummer for me, seriously, thats too much farming for mods.

 

And with update 8, I dont even dare to play beyond one mission everyday, and soon I will be just logging in for daily reward, in the hopes someday they implement a true non-farming "OPTIONAL MODE" for players like me, but I dont see it happening anytime soon.

 

To all those who are content with farming, have fun and enjoy !!! :)

 

Also, some have mentioned in the posts above that there is no online game without farming. I'd say there are, its just that they are PvP. If you dont believe me, go to Smite, buy its god pack. There is zero (YES ZERO) farming there after that. Too bad there isnt any PvE equivalent of it.

Edited May 25, 2013 by rksk16it

[Aerensiniac]

I think if they implement proper quests and storyline system to get certain items, would be much better than this current endless farming.

Quests... well i can imagine the community backlash and how everyone would complain against turning warframe into zelda but.... its actually an interesting idea.

I mean a FEW scripted role/achievement/story/whatever related events would be pretty golden.

The mastery system and the dojo tests in them self are very simplistic representations of this, so whilst i doubt the community would welcome a global change towards the questing direction, i find it still an intriguing idea.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Mount And Blade

 

Dead Rising 1 & 2

 

Lost planet 2

 

Nation Red

 

Borderlands

 

Brink

 

Dead Island

 

Ragnarok Odyssey

 

Metal Gear Solid: Peacewalker

Adding Fallout 3, New Vegas, Skyrim (imo, don't need to farm, using gold (the primary currency) you can buy mats for crafting mostly), and Borderlands 2 (sure there are bosses to be farmed, but you can get quite a bit of playtime from leveling and playing the 4 base chars, even without the DLC)

[EchoLG]

Bumping this thread cause of sheer truth in it. I'd also like to know what the devs think of this, a reply here would be a good start.

[EchoLG]

Only read the first page of this topic but what I gather from it is OP is looking for more in-game lore, vanity style things, and.... You know, I just tried to think of anything else that other games that consist of having to level anything or had RNG dropped items in it at all and I failed to come up with something. Since Warframe is NOT open world and it is instanced you can't put in the silly little Easter Egg areas that MMOs have. In-game lore could easily be added into the Clan Hall system in the form of readable material you can research? Skins for your frames....?

 

I don't know what anyone who's complaining about this game is looking for and the funny part about it is that just from the first page of this topic, neither do they. All games with any type of leveling system or loot system equal RNG and farming. All of them.

Read post #69

[Ronindream]

Read post #69

 

Hahaha I read post #81 after posting mine, cursed, tried to delete what I wrote so I could go read what the idea on fixes are THEN post, and got caught anyway. Props.

 

AFTER reading that I say that those ideas do not work unless you're using an open world, MMO style game. The biggest complaint I've seen in MMOs is "I love the game but once I get to 'X' I can't solo it anymore. And I hate you all so I don't want to team up." Having things that are ONLY achievable through PvP or through teamplay makes people upset. Warframe is supposed to be a game with AT MAX 4 people running something at the same time. Other games that are 3rd person shooter are never random generated map type games. They're very linear.

 

To all the games that have CONSTANT updates with new content and new dungeons and new achievements... They're all PTP.... Not FTP.... Next, we're in Beta..... final vision for the game isn't only what we see now.

 

P.S. I realize the Guild Hall system makes the 4 person max argument invalid due to the AMOUNT of STUFF required to make it but that just came out so lets see where that goes. I figure that'll be question #1 on Tuesday.