Phage And Embolist

[(PSN)Firedragooner]

Hi,

 

I' m not Aware if the Phage and the Embolist will be revisited after U17. So here a few suggestions how to improve those weapons.

 

Phage:

 

Status Chance from 15%/Sec to 20%/Sec (maybe even 30%/Sec)

Max Ammo capacity from 120 to 200 ( which are still only 5 recharges ) before running low.

Fire rate from 1.00 to 1.50

And a initial Punch trough?

 

For the Arms, would it be an idea that they adjust themself to the front to form a single beam, by only holding the firing button?  as an faster animation

It is annoying to must aim to do that. It cost you alredy time and ammo apart of the vunerabilite due you are slowed.

 

Embolist:

 

Status as for Phage increase to 20%/Sec ( maybe even 30%Sec)

Max Ammo capacity from 210 to 600 ( would either make 6 recharges or 2 if you use the syndicate mod )

And a slighly higher Damage Output, from 18.1 to 20 Toxic.

 

Best regards

[Necr0Ra1se]

I don't think Phage needs any buffs it's already good weapon.

About Embolist I say YEAS!!!! 
 

But instead of 600 it would be better to see 800.

[Paradoxbomb]

I feel as though the Phage is already pretty solid in terms of damage and ammo economy, although I wouldn't be against adding that extra 5% status chance. As for aiming, they could allow us to use the alt-fire button to adjust the spread instead of the aim button (now that they've been separated as of U17).

 

As for the Embolist, that thing could use whatever it can get. On top of a larger ammo reserve, I wouldn't mind if they toned down the actual ammo consumption rate, that thing burns through ammo as fast as the Ignis but without even half of the effective range.

[Renegade343]

I was wondering with the Embolist the other day when looking at how effective it would be, from someone using it, and I had a thought: 

 

What if, instead of buffing almost every aspect for the Embolist, we leave (almost) all of them as it is, and instead replace the limited ammo with regenerating ammo, just like Archwing weapons? The magazine size could stand to have a slight increase to around 150 - 200, but at the very least, the Embolist can be a backup weapon or a short sprayer-like weapon. 

[Slaviar]

I think Phage is alright but Embolist needs a buff in pretty much every area- damage, ammo economy, range...

[YagoXiten]

That is not anywhere near enough of a buff to the Embolist. I've spent several consecutive hours trying to make it work efficiently, and it just cannot be done.

That thing requires an extremely large amount of resources to craft, Mastery rank 8, has very low range, very poor ammo economy, and very poor damage.

The only real purpose to a weapon is to kill things. You can buff its status chance, you can buff its range, you can buff its ammo economy, but that is not going to do anything to make it more usable if the entire reason you are using a weapon is completely invalidated because it shoots confetti instead of bullets.

Even without Ruinous Extension, or Pistol Ammo Mutation, or Eroding Blight, the highest damage I can get on the weapon is 21k burst DPS. There are several secondary weapons that can easily achieve that, and a few that can do that even including utility mods like Pistol Ammo Mutation.

Even if it had its base range buffed to 30m, and the ammo economy of the Latron, that would still not be enough to warrant using it in T4 missions, trials, or endless missions such as Defense, Survival, Interception, and Excavation.

It would be somewhat usable in such content, then, but that does not reflect the effort required to get the weapon, or actually compete with other weapons used at that tier.

Sure, not every weapon needs to be SomBoltorPrime level, but if it takes Mastery rank 8, 5 Mutagen Masses, 15,000 Salvage, a Forma, and 80,000 credits to craft, it should be around that level of effectiveness.

If you want to buff the Embolist:

Damage: 50
Fire Rate: 7.5
(Total of 375 damage / second)
Range: 10m

Ruinous Extension is no longer required, though still quite nice, ammo economy is still bad, but not unbearable, and the damage is actually acceptable. Synoid Gammacor, for reference does 420 damage / second.
 

[(PSN)atpbx]

Anyone remember the Acrid at all?

 

Hello?

 

:(

[YagoXiten]

Anyone remember the Acrid at all?

 

Hello?

 

:(

I do. Unfortunately. The constant disgusting noise of that thing in every mission haunts my nightmares.

That aside, it does need a significant buff.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

That is not anywhere near enough of a buff to the Embolist. I've spent several consecutive hours trying to make it work efficiently, and it just cannot be done.

That thing requires an extremely large amount of resources to craft, Mastery rank 8, has very low range, very poor ammo economy, and very poor damage.

The only real purpose to a weapon is to kill things. You can buff its status chance, you can buff its range, you can buff its ammo economy, but that is not going to do anything to make it more usable if the entire reason you are using a weapon is completely invalidated because it shoots confetti instead of bullets.

Even without Ruinous Extension, or Pistol Ammo Mutation, or Eroding Blight, the highest damage I can get on the weapon is 21k burst DPS. There are several secondary weapons that can easily achieve that, and a few that can do that even including utility mods like Pistol Ammo Mutation.

Even if it had its base range buffed to 30m, and the ammo economy of the Latron, that would still not be enough to warrant using it in T4 missions, trials, or endless missions such as Defense, Survival, Interception, and Excavation.

It would be somewhat usable in such content, then, but that does not reflect the effort required to get the weapon, or actually compete with other weapons used at that tier.

Sure, not every weapon needs to be SomBoltorPrime level, but if it takes Mastery rank 8, 5 Mutagen Masses, 15,000 Salvage, a Forma, and 80,000 credits to craft, it should be around that level of effectiveness.

If you want to buff the Embolist:

Damage: 50

Fire Rate: 7.5

(Total of 375 damage / second)

Range: 10m

Ruinous Extension is no longer required, though still quite nice, ammo economy is still bad, but not unbearable, and the damage is actually acceptable. Synoid Gammacor, for reference does 420 damage / second.

Is that 21k burst DPS for a Single Target?

If people are wanting Embolist buffed for Single target damage....I won't argue against it.

It will just make the weapon more proficient at the primary job of attacking multiple enemies.

Phage already has innate Punch-through as does the Embolist.

Increasing the status chance while keeping it as per/sec is a waste.

All weapons should be status per beam/pellet/projectile

Meaning Phage at base fire-rate of 1.0 is 7 beams with an individual status chance of 15%

Embolist with base fire- rate of 10 should have 10% status every tenth of a second.

Status chance would be getting applied to ammuntion per sec fire-rate.

Multiplied by mutli-shot(beam/pellet/projectile)

Currently if status is under 100% for high pellet/multi-shot weapons status chance is greatly hindered.

Also continous beam weapons are hurt by increased fire-rate not assisting status chance ecen though it should......If status chance per second was removed.

Embolist(or Atomos) with a Primed Ruinous Extension would be Rona Thorne "Amaaaaaazzziing!"

Would be nice if Spectra got bumped from 15m base to 18m or 25m base.

Allowing Embolist to be bumbed up to 15m base range.

Phage, Synapse, and Ignis could use a 35m base range buff.....

All my opinion

[Archistopheles]

Phage has something that no other shotgun has: Corrosive + Viral.

[YagoXiten]

Is that 21k burst DPS for a Single Target?

If people are wanting Embolist buffed for Single target damage....I won't argue against it.

It will just make the weapon more proficient at the primary job of attacking multiple enemies.

Phage already has innate Punch-through as does the Embolist.

Increasing the status chance while keeping it as per/sec is a waste.

All weapons should be status per beam/pellet/projectile

Meaning Phage at base fire-rate of 1.0 is 7 beams with an individual status chance of 15%

Embolist with base fire- rate of 10 should have 10% status every tenth of a second.

Status chance would be getting applied to ammuntion per sec fire-rate.

Multiplied by mutli-shot(beam/pellet/projectile)

Currently if status is under 100% for high pellet/multi-shot weapons status chance is greatly hindered.

Also continous beam weapons are hurt by increased fire-rate not assisting status chance ecen though it should......If status chance per second was removed.

Embolist(or Atomos) with a Primed Ruinous Extension would be Rona Thorne "Amaaaaaazzziing!"

Would be nice if Spectra got bumped from 15m base to 18m or 25m base.

Allowing Embolist to be bumbed up to 15m base range.

Phage, Synapse, and Ignis could use a 35m base range buff.....

All my opinion

Yes, that's single target damage. That said, saying 'It does 84k DPS if I hit four enemies!', sounds like a defense on paper, until you realize there's plenty of other weapons that can kill crowds quicker, either by quickly taking out single targets or by modding Seeker. Not to mention, you won't have an easy time lining up four or more enemies, anyways.

Honestly, that's just fallacious theory crafting, and is rather similar to arguing that the Ignis is a great weapon because Ember can make it usable through Accelerant.

 

Also, on that note, an Atomos with Seeker and Ruinous Extension installed can still do 15k single target damage. And it has better range, better ammo economy, and its damage increases exponentially, since each target hit from Seeker will create additional beams which boosts its crowd clearing potential, and they can even bounce to the initial target, which raises its  effective single target DPS significantly. And it's really easy to recreate those situations.

 

Edited August 12, 2015 by YagoXiten

[VectorWolf]

Phage don't need buff, but it would be good, if those arms were finally affected by firerate mods.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Yes, that's single target damage. That said, saying 'It does 84k DPS if I hit four enemies!', sounds like a defense on paper, until you realize there's plenty of other weapons that can kill crowds quicker, either by quickly taking out single targets or by modding Seeker. Not to mention, you won't have an easy time lining up four or more enemies, anyways.

Honestly, that's just fallacious theory crafting, and is rather similar to arguing that the Ignis is a great weapon because Ember can make it usable through Accelerant.

 

Also, on that note, an Atomos with Seeker and Ruinous Extension installed can still do 15k single target damage. And it has better range, better ammo economy, and its damage increases exponentially, since each target hit from Seeker will create additional beams which boosts its crowd clearing potential, and they can even bounce to the initial target, which raises its  effective single target DPS significantly. And it's really easy to recreate those situations.

Your example you just used for the Atomos wouldn't be single target...if you are needing other enemies to arc off.

Which is why it would be the in same Theory crafting boat as Embolist.

But neither of those weapons excel in single target application.

Both Atomos and Embolist don't need enemies lined-up either....they have wider frontal cone than say a Marelok with Seeker or Ak_________(insert spray&pray) sweeping auto-pistols with Seeker.

Ignoring the Frontal cone AoE and only looking at Single Target DPS is a rather harsh assement.

Penta, Tonkor, Stug, Angstrum, Castanas: aren't known for big single Target DPS.....doesn't mean they need to buffed for the sake of single target DPS.

Punch-through is not a Mod that benefits Embolist.

Since they buffed Supra because it is a MR weapon, I can see the Embolist getting an adjustment soon, for the same reasons.

If theu triple the damage and adjust ammo economy like the Spectra: Spectra went from 8 base damage to 30. Plus mag and reserve ammo buff plus lower fire rate.

If they apply the same to Embolist and possibly give it more base Range it may be awesome.

"I recall people saying Embolist was the weapon you run up to and delete an enemy from the game -Damage 1.0"

[YagoXiten]

Your example you just used for the Atomos wouldn't be single target...if you are needing other enemies to arc off.

Which is why it would be the in same Theory crafting boat as Embolist.

But neither of those weapons excel in single target application.

Both Atomos and Embolist don't need enemies lined-up either....they have wider frontal cone than say a Marelok with Seeker or Ak_________(insert spray&pray) sweeping auto-pistols with Seeker.

Ignoring the Frontal cone AoE and only looking at Single Target DPS is a rather harsh assement.

Penta, Tonkor, Stug, Angstrum, Castanas: aren't known for big single Target DPS.....doesn't mean they need to buffed for the sake of single target DPS.

Punch-through is not a Mod that benefits Embolist.

Since they buffed Supra because it is a MR weapon, I can see the Embolist getting an adjustment soon, for the same reasons.

If theu triple the damage and adjust ammo economy like the Spectra: Spectra went from 8 base damage to 30. Plus mag and reserve ammo buff plus lower fire rate.

If they apply the same to Embolist and possibly give it more base Range it may be awesome.

"I recall people saying Embolist was the weapon you run up to and delete an enemy from the game -Damage 1.0"

To reiterate: A true, single target spawned, the Embolist, full damage build, does 21k damage. The Atomos, with two mods that are essentially useless to single target damage, does 15k. The Atomos still has better ammo economy against that single target, and still has better range, even if I ignore that said Atomos build has Ruinous Extension. If I run a similar, full damage build, on the Atomos, I can achieve

29k DPS.

Against any more than a single target, the Atomos does vastly higher damage.

The 'frontal cone' on the Embolist is still extremely limited. I own one. I use it. I know. It is still bad. I tested it today, actually, at maximum range, with Ruinous Extension, it only enables you to hit about two more enemies to the side of your main target. Furthermore, it doesn't matter if the Embolist has a large hitbox if you're still not going to hit enemies in normal gameplay unless you're using Vauban's Vortex.

And also, the Penta, Tonkor, likely Stug though that one I haven't actually run the numbers on, and Angstrum, all have higher single target DPS than the Embolist, by a significant margin, by the way. And the Castanas actually do need a buff.

The Embolist's AoE and innate punch through would be great features, even with its small range or ammo economy, if it did damage worth noting. As it is, though, it's damage is low, and even though it can achieve reasonable (though still low) damage at the moment if you even want to try and use it for damage you have to put on AT LEAST one of two mods that add literally nothing to its already lackluster damage, and in fact, use up mod slots you need to compete for weapons used in low T4.

 

[(PSN)MrNishi]

To reiterate: A true, single target spawned, the Embolist, full damage build, does 21k damage. The Atomos, with two mods that are essentially useless to single target damage, does 15k. The Atomos still has better ammo economy against that single target, and still has better range, even if I ignore that said Atomos build has Ruinous Extension. If I run a similar, full damage build, on the Atomos, I can achieve

29k DPS.

Against any more than a single target, the Atomos does vastly higher damage.

The 'frontal cone' on the Embolist is still extremely limited. I own one. I use it. I know. It is still bad. I tested it today, actually, at maximum range, with Ruinous Extension, it only enables you to hit about two more enemies to the side of your main target. Furthermore, it doesn't matter if the Embolist has a large hitbox if you're still not going to hit enemies in normal gameplay unless you're using Vauban's Vortex.

And also, the Penta, Tonkor, likely Stug though that one I haven't actually run the numbers on, and Angstrum, all have higher single target DPS than the Embolist, by a significant margin, by the way. And the Castanas actually do need a buff.

The Embolist's AoE and innate punch through would be great features, even with its small range or ammo economy, if it did damage worth noting. As it is, though, it's damage is low, and even though it can achieve reasonable (though still low) damage at the moment if you even want to try and use it for damage you have to put on AT LEAST one of two mods that add literally nothing to its already lackluster damage, and in fact, use up mod slots you need to compete for weapons used in low T4.

I don't recall saying the Atomos, Penta, Tonkor, Stug, or Castanas were worse than Embolist for single target damage. I said these were AoE weapons not known for great Single Target DPS.

I don't know why you are reiterating Embolist single target damage.

You quoted me saying Embolist single target damage is bad.(Embolist strong suit is not Single Target)

You seem to be saying in actual Gameplay the Embolist will only hit 2 enemies with its rather low damage; unless Vauban Vortex. While this may not reflect my experience, it may be more accurate to what other players experience. But it sounds like even if it had more base damage - it would still be a bad weapon because of design flaws in how the damage would only be applied 2 targets at a time.

Amprex powercreeped the Ignis like Atomos powercreeped the Embolist.....different approach AoE spray/beam that rendered the old variant grossly less efficient.(Should it and the Atomos have their ranges swapped....or should the Embolist just have further range innately? With more base damage than Atomos because MR requirement)

I use the Embolist, maybe I have not invested as much time and resources into the Embolist as you or others:

I use a simple 2-DoT build with Corrosive for Armor reduction:

[(PSN)Firedragooner]

Hi,

 

Hmm, seems we split up again.

 

I see again all those theory stuff about DPS and k's. That' s the way I personal quit, due if we looking only those parts we will end up by buffing all weapons until we have just different looking Soma's and so on.

I use the both weapon regulary in game, moded, forma and with the Frame they suscribed on.

 

 

Phage:

 

Here we go again.

 

But if you readed my entry Posts, you were Aware of that i don't talk to increase the damage. ;) Yes is a very solid even strong weapon.

 

Principly it is the aiming - Focus Animation that really gives disadvantage.

Solution would be, that the 7 beams adjust to the front by only Holding the Trigger button.

 

Ammo increase for sure, yeah why not 800, can live with that. Even the Shotgun Mutation mod doesn't really help to sustain a good ammo Efficiency.

 

5% increase in Status Chance.

 

The fire rate is open to dicussion. Don't know if you ever use Shotgun Spazz to see the difference. Therefore the Suggestion of a slight increse in the Basic fire rate.

 

Initial Punch through was on the first release of it, but after it killed only one by one and couldn' t pass through thin cover. But i will check this again to make sure.

 

Embolist

 

Some good ideas.

 

Like the idea of the Archwing ammunition - regeneraton. Would even fit in well, due the weapons are biological/living ones.

 

Thsnks for the idea's. Hope that it will get around and somehow on the workdesk of DE. So that in future I can enjoy more balanced Phage and Embolist.

 

Cheers

[EinheriarJudith]

phage doesn't need a buffed status chance at all. fire rate mods increases status chance. imo embolist range should be 15 maybe 20 meters and get a slight crit increase maybe 15-20% then buffed with mod to say 32-44%

[(PSN)Firedragooner]

Hi

 

Crit Chance for Embolist?

Seems not to be right, higher Status more then, due that it gives you a better grip on the toxic base damage.

 

It's funny how Point of view's differ. But with that statment: 'It doesn't Need a buff ' your right, is about improving, without a therory of how much DPS. The game doesn't and should not only be reigned by such an Approach.

Shotgun Spaz increase the rate dramaticly for Phage ( and it is use in mine ), But without it, the rate is simply too slow from the beginning if you have more resilient enemies.

 

Neitherless, above are good ideas and improvments, who would make the Phage as the Embolist more fun and versatie to play.

 

Best regards

[Xekrin]

I would say one single change would make the embolist really good (IMO), it needs to spit, seriously, spit a STREAM of acid/toxin/whatever in a straight line that terminates at its range (or when hits an enemy) into that weird puffy cloud stuff.  It is (was, sold it) just impossible for me to tell if the thing was even hitting anything with some near invisible puffy cloud of gaeous whatever floating every which way.

 

Simply put, spit a stream, upon contact, become gas.  FIXED.

 

If this were to happen, I'd remake it and THEN start complaining/feedbacking its damage.

[Epicagemo]

Someone gotta check the date on this thing

[RealPandemonium]

Phage has always been a powerhouse and Embolist has beast deeps, though poor ammo efficiency.

[(XBOX)Skode]

Embolist has beast deeps, though poor ammo efficiency.

Which can be countered with a syndicate mod.

[RealPandemonium]

Which can be countered with a syndicate mod.

The syndicate mod increases clip size but does not improve ammo efficiency or increase max ammo in any way.  

[Me.Greedy]

i don't mind the embolist, but it needs WAY more of an ammo pool... thats the only thing that keeps it in my arsenal collecting pixelated dust.

[Nembilim]

phage doesn't need a buffed status chance at all. fire rate mods increases status chance. 

beam weapons like the Phage and Flux Rifle dont get an increased amount of procs from fire rate mods. they are status per second, not per ammo.