Dread Vs Paris Prime Endgame Analysis: The Pp Is Trash.

[Koto]

TL;DR. Versus armored targets: The Dread is King; Paris Prime is trash.

 

I've looked through a lot of old threads debating Dread vs PP, and none of them provided solid evidence as to why one is better than the other. The most acceptable answers, imo, was a logical approach by comparing and contrasting the weapons with the Damage 2.0 Damage Modifiers. You can look at it at face-value and conclude that the puncture based PP should top the Dread in the presence of any armor due to its bonus +50% dmg on ferrite and +15% on alloy while slash receives -15% on ferrite and -50% on alloy, but the main thing that prevents the PP from surpassing the Dread, where the PP is expected to top the Dread aka versus armored targets, is Armor Scaling. 

 

I'm going to disprove an "advantage" that the PP had over the Dread due to popular belief. Before any of you criticize the validity of the builds, I'd like to say that I objectively perceive to have maximized the bows to their full potential. Bows cannot run status builds to their maximum potential when you include the fire rate of the bows, time it takes to aim (You're firing a fully charged arrow at a head that might be moving and isn't exposed to your direct line of sight 100% of the time - Grineers, in this case, Heavy Gunners and Bombards, physically wear armor that restrict their headshot registration to a cone less than 180 degrees; You, innately, ARE going to take the time to aim accurately), and the time it takes to adjust for mechanics, such as lining up enemies b/c of innate punch through or adjusting b/c of the arrow's travel time. In other words, bows cannot proc a status you want fast enough to warrant a status build. In addition, if your foothold against armored targets is reliant on your bow procing corrosive or any status, then you probably won't go as far as a consistent - a physical proc is weighted 4x as much as an elemental one, so the likelihood in seeing an elemental proc from a weapon with both physical and elemental damage is low, which is effectively worse on a bow - straight full dps build or shouldn't have less than 4x CP. However, in the instance where 4x CP is present, the infinite scaling capabilities of a viral proc does warrant a status build for a meager loss of 8.7k consistent paper dps as an exception. 

 

Dread Build: http://goo.gl/D3Ggcr

PP Build: http://goo.gl/mTuplK

Infected Clip is the only dynamic part in the builds (Swapping it for Hell Fire to get Radiation). 

Data Collection

 

Data Trends:

• The PP competes equally with the Dread as the PP continues to reach its peaking optimal point, however near the end it begins to falloff. In other words, the dmg retained on c.flesh begins to shadow the dmg retained on the armor.
• In the Bombard case, the Dread truly dictates its presence on the c.flesh dmg since the total dmg retention rate is greater than the PP. Ofc, resistances play a factor as well, but it's less evident on corrosive vs HG until beyond lvl 90 enemies.
• The corrosive bow vs HG shows that the Dread pulls ahead in the beginning, then the PP, then finally the Dread. The level 50 data signifies that the PP is still approaching its optimal point where it is shadowing the dmg dealt by c.flesh when the Dread has already begun to falloff, however at the end we can see that the PP is past its optimal peak declining faster than the Dread.

Key Concept in Data Trends: The Dread will falloff earlier than the PP while the PP will peak longer, however the rate at which the Dread falls-off is lower than the rate at which the PP falls-off. 

 

Note: Each one of these values have been tested personally in the Simulacrum, and checked at least twice, even for the red crits on the PP :\, to make sure the values were consistent. I did NOT just grab a yellow crit and math my way for the red crits. 

 

Discrepancy: When I spawned lvl 1 Heavy Gunners and Bombards, the game spawned lvl 8 and 4 respectively, but it's most likely due to those values being their base levels. I could've gone back and just spawned lvl 8 HGs and Bombards, but I already collected some data by the time I noticed and I'm too lazy. Besides, they're low-leveled, so their armor doesn't matter as much, and I only collected the level 1 input for the sake of seeing a trend. 

 

Why I didn't just paper my way through this experiment for data and a WFBuilder caveat:

Calculating the dmg you deal to an enemy involves a bunch of separate calculations that sums the resulting value from each individual factor. An insight to my approximation as to what it looks like to calculate dmg for one shot: look at EACH one of your IPS values, then calculate the resulting dmg value that each one does to the target modifier, do the same for elements, sum everything, another target/dmg modifier?, if yes, then start from the beginning, crit?, if yes, then crit multiplier?, previous status proc that possibly influences the dmg modifier?, is the dmg going to bleed-over?, multishot?, etc.

 

Why didn't you just use WFB to see that PP > Dread on armored targets. 

You're reading WFB incorrectly. The calculated values you get after clicking on "Details" only show the dmg ouput on a pure type. Surprise surprise, nothing in this game is a pure type. WFB supports the fact that Dread > PP when you read it with realism on whatever they're using to calculate their total dmg per shot. In other words, you need to add up dmg values inflicted on both modifier types. 

WFB is a great general guideline that averages the damage you deal, but it is not absolute law (Have you compared the values from ingame simulation and what WFB says? I highly doubt you will obtain the same results). The numbers you get are ran through dmg calcs done on a pure target at base level while averaging the crit chance and multishot into your overall damage. Ie. 90% multishot is flubbed/averaged in by multiplying the base value by 1.9, an RNG value, so the value that outputs is the average of what you should get. I realize I can uncheck the multishot and crit stuff on WFB, but the fact that it doesn't allow you to look at damage dealt at enemies that aren't at their base level means that you would still have to calculate the DR on your target on your own if you want to get any precise answer, but why would you do that when you can simply just go into the Simulacrum?, henceforth WFB is unreliable for complete accuracy on targets that are above level 10. I even reverse-calculated for the total dmg on the Dread and got a percent error when comparing it to WFB. 

 

I'll explain using an interpretation of the crap I just typed in the spoiler for simplicity sake. 

Effective Total Damage on Grineer is calculated as follows: ETD = [(Dmg on Cloned Flesh) + (Dmg on Armor)] * x

where x is some DR value that I'm gonna ignore.

The important concept to grasp here, and not the precision of the formula, is: ETD = (Dmg on Cloned Flesh) + (Dmg on Armor)

 

I'll first address what baffled me the most, which led me to my conclusion on this comparison. Why does the PP still fall behind when put up against the Bombard? As I said earlier, ferrite receives +50% from punc and -15% on slash while alloy receives +15% from punc and -50% slash. What happened here? This goes back to the idea of DR's exponential scaling. In the simplified ETD formula, as the enemies armor approaches infinity, the dmg from your weapon on the armor portion will approach 0, therefore the dmg on c.flesh will surpass the dmg on armor at a certain point. This doesn't necessarily mean that you will reach a point where your dmg approaches "pure dmg" from the dmg you deal on the c.flesh since the unsimplified version of the formula factors in the DR from the enemy armor into the dmg dealt on the c.flesh. 

 

Why does the PP under-perform in a bigger margin against alloy than ferrite?

Applying the concept behind the ETD formula; Ferrite: +50% punc, -15% slash; Alloy: +15% punc, -50% slash; C.flesh: +25% slash.

The Dread is more efficient vs c.flesh, a modifier that does not reduce output dmg over time. PP is more efficient vs armor, a modifier that diminishes the PP's only advantage as time progresses. When going from ferrite to alloy, you remove the only advantage the PP has vs the Dread. The -50% on alloy from slash seems really crippling to the Dread, but it's not like the Dread had amazing dmg vs armor in the first place. 

 

What happens when we have more than 1 CP?

In the instance of 2 and 3 CP, when applying knowledge from the trends, the PP will continue to peak longer while the Dread will falloff later than its previous iteration of optimal when CP decrements by =(current CP-1), but earlier than PP's optimal point. However the PP will continue to falloff faster than the Dread once its optimal point has been reached. All in all Dread > PP still remains. 

 

A lot believe the Dread and PP are equals but specialize in certain niche. In other words, PP > Dread when armor is present. This is not entirely true, especially when the weapons are being put up with a bunch of multipliers and dmg modifiers from different enemy types. The dread has 90/100 of its IPS in slash while the PP has 80/100 in punc. In the grand scheme of things, the PP's 10-less punc stat matters a lot when you have a charged bow (2x dmg), yellow crit(4.4x), red crit (7.8x), and dmg modifiers. At the base, when both are fully charged, the Dread has 10.5k slash while the PP 8.5k punc. Does the PP compete if DE changes the PP's base dmg to 90/100 punc? Kinda, but all this does is delay the time it takes for the PP to falloff. In other words, no change in the big picture (See #3/Key Concept in Data Trends). 

 

All in all, I'm real annoyed that I wasted 4 forma on a bow, that I had to grind for, being topped by a bow that drops like candy from the Stalker. Does this mean I was biased in all this? No, I provided actual values you would obtain from ingame, which says more than enough whether or not I typed anything at all. Realistically, you would want to specialize against both HGs and Bombards since the Grineer/Void faction does not only consist of one or the other, hence the PP falls short. 

 

The main point I'm trying to get across here is that Armor Scaling causes greater diminishing-returns-over-time on armor modifiers than not-armor modifiers, which effectively causes armor modifiers subject to the dumpster in due time. 

 

TL;DR. Versus armored targets: The Dread is King; Paris Prime is trash. 

[(PSN)vortex2917]

Personal preference?

[Stratego89]

Firstly... this is news? I thought everyone already accepted Dread as the rightful king?

 

Secondly, not to mention that if your squad has 4xCP Paris Prime looses the ONE thing that could make it better than Dread- while Dread gains ADDITIONAL bonuses to it's main base damage type, slash.

 

EDIT: I would like to mention one thing however. I will admit that I did not read the entire post in it's entirety but rather skimmed through, but I didn't see this brought up so I'm going to say it. Paris prime has ONE advantage over dread. It's puncture type is good against heavy gunners- so it doesn't NEED corrosive damage as much to deal with them, due to that it can throw on radiation viral instead and hit BOTH types of heavy armor (bombard and heavy gunner) pretty hard. In comparison dread can only choose one or the other to hit super hard. Ofc in anything serious people are going to be running 4xCP anyways so this wouldn't matter, but in solo play Paris Prime has the advantage of being able to kill everything about equally as well (including trash mobs since bow damage values are so high, the damage types dont really matter honestly).

Edited August 14, 2015 by Stratego89

[Stratego89]

Personal preference?

Be honest m8, who prefers looking at the paris prime... (ofc now we can use the skins for normal paris here on PC). In the end, the Dread (iirc) has higher crit, higher damage, better damage type for more enemies, faster projectile speed, faster draw speed, and probably faster reload speed. It literally beats out Paris Prime in every single aspect. In terms of single shot damage they'll be about equal when built right against armored units, but the other non-damage drawbacks when comparing paris prime to dread just make it kind of sad... But yes, always use what you like more, be it for stats or cosmetics. That's how I enjoy the game personally.

[-KoreanPotato-]

What's the point of debating if both bows can one hit any enemy below level 200?

[Gale47]

What's the point of debating if both bows can one hit any enemy below level 200?

Endgame. Haven't you heard? Everything below level 200 isn't worth playing against.

Sarcasm aside, I'm not sure why do people bother with this stuff either.

[Valkyr-Umbra]

I also prefer dread, but lets not forget Paris Prime's puncture damage. Without a coordinated squad running 4x corrosive projection, I personally think this places Paris Prime in the running (as its generally the heavily armored enemies, like bombards and heavy gunners, that you want to bring down quickly).

[DeejayPwny]

Be honest m8, who prefers looking at the paris prime... (ofc now we can use the skins for normal paris here on PC). In the end, the Dread (iirc) has higher crit, higher damage, better damage type for more enemies, faster projectile speed, faster draw speed, and probably faster reload speed. It literally beats out Paris Prime in every single aspect. In terms of single shot damage they'll be about equal when built right against armored units, but the other non-damage drawbacks when comparing paris prime to dread just make it kind of sad... But yes, always use what you like more, be it for stats or cosmetics. That's how I enjoy the game personally.

They have identical stats in all categories except damage and crit. The crit chance is 45% on PP vs 50% on dread! and both have 200 damage. The split however is 35/160/5 I/p/s on pp and dread has 10/10/180 in I/p/s

[TARINunit9]

I think you're making a logical fallacy of trying to judge the bows far past values the game actually expects you to fight (80+). Running both bows in Law of Retribution with four Corrosive Projections and Viral damage builds, both bows were dealing instant kills against level 90 enemies

 

Oh, and for the record to whoever asked

 

>Be honest m8, who prefers looking at the paris prime

 

I like the look of the Paris P. I don't play Warframe for sensible-looking weapons. If it's cohesive to itself but also completely unrealistic, then it's a bonafide Framewar killing device. Gimme a bow made of ivory and gold any day. This is probably why I was so harsh on the Daikyu back when it sucked total donkey dong; it looked too basic for my taste

Edited August 14, 2015 by TARINunit9

[Zerkev]

Everyone knows slash > everything else. Why is this even a debate

[Hortonman]

Dread can bisect enemies.

Paris prime can't.

/thread

[Z123FFSS89]

We know. Here's a +1 so your time wasn't completely wasted.

[ArmyUnit]

So because the Paris Prime does slightly less damage than the Dread at lvl 95, you consider it "trash"?

 

 

 

Are you serious?

[(XBOX)garbohydr8]

ok

[(PSN)SancticuS]

So because the Paris Prime does slightly less damage than the Dread at lvl 95, you consider it "trash"?

 

 

 

Are you serious?

 

Yeah I considered reading the post with a open mind but that statement alone just made the OP lose all credibility

[ThunderZsolt]

Nice analysis, thanks for the time and effort to write the OP!

i have never played that high level enemies, but understanding a little better how the damage works was worth the reading.

 

but yeah, nobody uses the paris prime, you can't even properly customize the color of that ugly thing, plus it has an awful sound

[pauli133]

You've shown an advantage to Dread, but there is no way you can say that you've shown Paris Prime to be "trash".

[MechaGent]

@OP: To be totally honest, I may have zoned out a little whilst reading your post, so I may have missed you mentioning this, but how were you calculating Armor damage bonuses? I ask only because you seemed to imply several times that you accounted for them only as damage buffs/debuffs, yet you seem to have neglected the actual armor quantity buff/debuff they provide. In the case of puncture damage, that flavor's portion of the damage would flat-out ignore 50%/15%, depending on armor type, of the armor present. In any event, I thank you for posting this, as it made me realize that I never actually have thought about which of the two bows was, qualitatively, better than the other.

[Oranji]

Dread is the lord of bows.

Paris Prime however, is useable for me now thanks to Abra Skin.

[(XBOX)BluAina]

But but, ok?

[AM-Bunny]

Firstly, I didn't read. Secondly, who cares? They both have places.

 

TL;DR even confesses that this is against armoured targets. If you're doing content that puts you up against these foes constantly, then go ahead and use your Dread. But there are other situations where you might prefer Paris Prime. It's still an amazing weapon in any run, even if there are situationally better choices.

 

Imo, that sounds like good balance.

[Kettunen]

Thanks for going through all that trouble. Had to read it twice (not a native speaker) to even roughly understand what was going on. Interesting piece nevertheless that confirms what people have said here -- armor scaling is broken.

[----Fenrir----]

You forgot the additional damage you get with the Dread from "slash procs":

 

"Slash damage's unique status effect is Bleed, a DoT (damage-over-time effect) that inflicts 35% of your weapon or power's base damage per tick (7 ticks in 6 seconds) as Finishing damage. Therefore, this proc damage bypasses shields and is not affected by armor or enemy resistances. Multiple instances of Bleed may be stacked on the same target. If the proc occurs off of a critical hit, the Bleed ticks are also multiplied by critical damage multiplier."

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Slash_Damage

 

Just one dual stat elemental mod is enough to get the status chance slightly above 50% with the Dread. I run a "Viral" build on my Dread and most shots proc either viral or slash which really helps against those high level heavy units once you can not one-shot them anymore. "Slash" procs add a SUBSTANTIAL 100% armor ignore damage bonus to the Dread.

Edited August 15, 2015 by ----Fenrir----

[Arenzo4]

Nice analysis, thanks for the time and effort to write the OP!

i have never played that high level enemies, but understanding a little better how the damage works was worth the reading.

 

but yeah, nobody uses the paris prime, you can't even properly customize the color of that ugly thing, plus it has an awful sound

i use it, are you reffering to the gold that you cant color? personally if its prime i leave it looking like a prime

[Invalid_Infinity]

Dread is the lord of bows.

Paris Prime however, is useable for me now thanks to Abra Skin.

And what a beautiful skin it is.