Dread Vs Paris Prime Endgame Analysis: The Pp Is Trash.

[Ashnal]

Endgame. Haven't you heard? Everything below level 200 isn't worth playing against.

Sarcasm aside, I'm not sure why do people bother with this stuff either.

I'm with you on that one. It's that mentality why everyone freaked out about Covert Lethality and Exalted Blade, even though Exalted Blade already did enough damage to one shot enemies that weren't in overlevelled content. As long as you have enough to 1 shot level 80 enemies, more damage is pointless.

Firstly, I didn't read. Secondly, who cares? They both have places.

 

TL;DR even confesses that this is against armoured targets. If you're doing content that puts you up against these foes constantly, then go ahead and use your Dread. But there are other situations where you might prefer Paris Prime. It's still an amazing weapon in any run, even if there are situationally better choices.

 

Imo, that sounds like good balance.

Actually OP was about how Dread is always better than Paris Prime. There is no circumstance where Paris Prime is better than the Dread ;)

[AM-Bunny]

Actually OP was about how Dread is always better than Paris Prime. There is no circumstance where Paris Prime is better than the Dread ;)

 

Really? I find that hard to believe, but I'm too intimidated by the wall of text and calculations to actually try and formulate an argument.

 

Well, suffice it to say that Paris Prime is still an amazing weapon that holds up just fine in endgame, even if Dread is better still.

[TARINunit9]

Actually OP was about how Dread is always better than Paris Prime. There is no circumstance where Paris Prime is better than the Dread ;)

Except I'm pretty sure there is, on the grounds that I don't think OP understands how Puncture damage works

 

I didn't see this in OP's math, but I might have missed it. Point is, Puncture is more effective against armor than Slash is against flesh. Slash confers a +25% bonus to Grineer, while Puncture confers a +XX% bonus damage while also ignoring XX% of their armor. This adds up much faster against Ferrite, though Alloy will start to dull the sting of the Paris towards the "super-high endgame" (i.e. running Law of Retribution without four Corrosive Projections)

(XX = 15% for Alloy and 50% for Ferrite)

[RiouHotaru]

So because the Paris Prime does slightly less damage than the Dread at lvl 95, you consider it "trash"?

 

 

 

Are you serious?

 

Seriously.  The amount of difference in damage is a couple hundred points.  That's literally it.

 

It's exactly up to personal preference now.

[Ashnal]

Except I'm pretty sure there is, on the grounds that I don't think OP understands how Puncture damage works

 

I didn't see this in OP's math, but I might have missed it. Point is, Puncture is more effective against armor than Slash is against flesh. Slash confers a +25% bonus to Grineer, while Puncture confers a +XX% bonus damage while also ignoring XX% of their armor. This adds up much faster against Ferrite, though Alloy will start to dull the sting of the Paris towards the "super-high endgame" (i.e. running Law of Retribution without four Corrosive Projections)

(XX = 15% for Alloy and 50% for Ferrite)

I think you missed the part where OP didn't actually calculate the numbers. He went in game and let the game do the correct calculations for him in the Simalcrum. Pretty sure the damage numbers in game don't lie.

 

Even if OP had his speculations about the math off, he didn't actually calculate anything by hand, so it wouldn't matter. All that matters is the chart of data provided.

[TARINunit9]

I think you missed the part where OP didn't actually calculate the numbers. He went in game and let the game do the correct calculations for him in the Simalcrum. Pretty sure the damage numbers in game don't lie.

 

Even if OP had his speculations about the math off, he didn't actually calculate anything by hand, so it wouldn't matter. All that matters is the chart of data provided.

Ah yes, I did miss that part

 

Yeah, looking back over the table, that's exactly what the wiki said would happen as armor values got into the high thousands (Heavy Gunners have over 6500 armor at level 95). This doesn't change the fact that OP really needs to get over himself

 

And your assertion that the Dread is always better than Paris P? I found a situation where that's blatantly false: fighting bosses, none of whom have even close to 6500 armor that the Dread needs to equal the Paris

Edited August 15, 2015 by TARINunit9

[Koto]

armor scaling is broken.

Yes! Thank you!

 

EDIT: I would like to mention one thing however. I will admit that I did not read the entire post in it's entirety but rather skimmed through, but I didn't see this brought up so I'm going to say it. Paris prime has ONE advantage over dread. It's puncture type is good against heavy gunners- so it doesn't NEED corrosive damage as much to deal with them, due to that it can throw on radiation viral instead and hit BOTH types of heavy armor (bombard and heavy gunner) pretty hard. In comparison dread can only choose one or the other to hit super hard. Ofc in anything serious people are going to be running 4xCP anyways so this wouldn't matter, but in solo play Paris Prime has the advantage of being able to kill everything about equally as well (including trash mobs since bow damage values are so high, the damage types dont really matter honestly).

The finicky thing about a jack-of-all trades is that while it does specialize in every area, it doesn't specialize very well in any area either. IMO, two polar strong-arm weapons, that specialize in diff areas, will carry you further than two jack-of-all trade weapons. In a vacuum example, (corrosive + heat along with radi + cold) > (corrosive + cold along with radi + toxin). When I used a radi PP in a T4S, it was just dreadful trying to take down a HG. 

 

I think you're making a logical fallacy of trying to judge the bows far past values the game actually expects you to fight (80+). Running both bows in Law of Retribution with four Corrosive Projections and Viral damage builds, both bows were dealing instant kills against level 90 enemies

I agree, but there was a time when r5s were plenty in the T4S rotations. I often preferred to just hop in a game solo for 60mins than to bring up a pug squad that usually begins to whine at around 40mins, thereby prompting to leave soon or asap. What brought this up was a thread in the Players Help Players section discussing how to go deep into a T4S solo, which brought a bunch of interesting memories for me when WF was in its honeymoon phase for me since I did a lot of T4S. 

 

Everyone knows slash > everything else. Why is this even a debate

You forgot the additional damage you get with the Dread from "slash procs":

 

"Slash damage's unique status effect is Bleed, a DoT (damage-over-time effect) that inflicts 35% of your weapon or power's base damage per tick (7 ticks in 6 seconds) as Finishing damage. Therefore, this proc damage bypasses shields and is not affected by armor or enemy resistances. Multiple instances of Bleed may be stacked on the same target. If the proc occurs off of a critical hit, the Bleed ticks are also multiplied by critical damage multiplier."

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Slash_Damage

 

Just one dual stat elemental mod is enough to get the status chance slightly above 50% with the Dread. I run a "Viral" build on my Dread and most shots proc either viral or slash which really helps against those high level heavy units once you can not one-shot them anymore. "Slash" procs add a SUBSTANTIAL 100% armor ignore damage bonus to the Dread.

I did not address the slash topic much since this was an analysis on the bows, however I do disagree against the general consensus that slash is anything significant. Slash ignores armor, sure, but it's also affected by armor reduction. Also, relying on a static non-scaling DoT subject to armor's DR to kill high HP targets is just unrealistic. It's helpful, but it's in no way any means reliable. 

 

So because the Paris Prime does slightly less damage than the Dread at lvl 95, you consider it "trash"?

 

 

 

Are you serious?

The key thing you're suppose to obtain in the corrosive bow vs HG is that @95 you start to see the PP past its peak or optimal point. Further down the road against 95+ enemies, the PP will fall behind more and more. 

 

And no not really, haha. I still see the potential fact that PP can out-perform the Dread against the Corpus faction (since Robotic enemies have very few effective and synergistic counters), but presently there's nothing worthwhile that involves high level Corpus enemies either, so that's like a "don't care" situation. That was a rather extreme statement, but you know.. oh well.

 

@OP: To be totally honest, I may have zoned out a little whilst reading your post, so I may have missed you mentioning this, but how were you calculating Armor damage bonuses? I ask only because you seemed to imply several times that you accounted for them only as damage buffs/debuffs, yet you seem to have neglected the actual armor quantity buff/debuff they provide. In the case of puncture damage, that flavor's portion of the damage would flat-out ignore 50%/15%, depending on armor type, of the armor present. In any event, I thank you for posting this, as it made me realize that I never actually have thought about which of the two bows was, qualitatively, better than the other.

"Note: Each one of these values have been tested personally in the Simulacrum, and checked at least twice, even for the red crits on the PP :\, to make sure the values were consistent. I did NOT just grab a yellow crit and math my way for the red crits. "

 

Except I'm pretty sure there is, on the grounds that I don't think OP understands how Puncture damage works

 

I didn't see this in OP's math, but I might have missed it. Point is, Puncture is more effective against armor than Slash is against flesh. Slash confers a +25% bonus to Grineer, while Puncture confers a +XX% bonus damage while also ignoring XX% of their armor. This adds up much faster against Ferrite, though Alloy will start to dull the sting of the Paris towards the "super-high endgame" (i.e. running Law of Retribution without four Corrosive Projections)

(XX = 15% for Alloy and 50% for Ferrite)

I would ask the same to you. Puncture dmg does not ignore armor. The conventional method of bypassing armor would be dealing finisher dmg. Here are some quotes that might be of some interest to you: 

 

"The Dread will falloff earlier than the PP while the PP will peak longer, however the rate at which the Dread falls-off is lower than the rate at which the PP falls-off. "

"The important concept to grasp here, and not the precision of the formula, is: ETD = (Dmg on Cloned Flesh) + (Dmg on Armor)"

"The main point I'm trying to get across here is that Armor Scaling causes greater diminishing-returns-over-time on armor modifiers than not-armor modifiers"

"the dmg retained on c.flesh begins to shadow the dmg retained on the armor"

[TARINunit9]

Puncture dmg does not ignore armor. 

It ignores 50% of the target's Ferrite armor and 15% of the target's Alloy armor. This is also how Corrosive/Radiation work against Ferrite/Alloy, respectively

[Koto]

It ignores 50% of the target's Ferrite armor and 15% of the target's Alloy armor. This is also how Corrosive/Radiation work against Ferrite/Alloy, respectively

It does not. Puncture provides bonus dmg against armor. 

[TARINunit9]

It does not. Puncture provides bonus dmg against armor. 

It provides both; I've checked with veterans who've played this game since Damage 2.0 first came out. Believe it or not, it doesn't matter; that's how it works

Edited August 15, 2015 by TARINunit9

[Koto]

It provides both; I've checked with veterans who've played this game since Damage 2.0 first came out. Believe it or not, it doesn't matter; that's how it works

Not sure how being a veteran means having all knowledge of game mechanics. There's a huge diff between ignoring armor and gaining bonuses against it. 

[TARINunit9]

There's a huge diff between ignoring armor and gaining bonuses against it. 

Yes there is a difference, but it hardly matters since both happen. Puncture/Corrosive/Radiation gain both the damage bonus and the ignores-armor-partially bonus, at the same time. I've tested this myself on Bombards

 

Paris Prime, modded for Viral on one test and Radiation on another test. Same Bombards, same level. Under your theory, they should be dealing the same amount of damage, because both are +75% against an Alloy-armored Cloned Flesh target. And yet Radiation damage greatly outclassed the Viral damage

 

EDIT: Just confirmed it in the Simulacrum. Paris P with nothing but Speed Trigger and 360 Rad Damage versus Paris P with nothing but Speed Trigger and 360 Viral damage. Rad dealt 348 versus the Viral's 184

 

So yes, it's confirmed, Puncture/Radiation/Corrosive partially ignore the target's armor in addition to dealing additional damage

Edited August 15, 2015 by TARINunit9

[Koto]

Yes there is a difference, but it hardly matters since both happen. Puncture/Corrosive/Radiation gain both the damage bonus and the ignores-armor-partially bonus, at the same time. I've tested this myself on Bombards

 

Paris Prime, modded for Viral on one test and Radiation on another test. Same Bombards, same level. Under your theory, they should be dealing the same amount of damage, because both are +75% against an Alloy-armored Cloned Flesh target. And yet Radiation damage greatly outclassed the Viral damage

 

Granted, I did this before the Simulacrum existed, so why doesn't one of us go test this a second time?

Alright I see your point, and no I didn't test it lol.

[Bachuuu]

Dread is the lord of bows.

Paris Prime however, is useable for me now thanks to Abra Skin.

So true.

[Koto]

And your assertion that the Dread is always better than Paris P? I found a situation where that's blatantly false: fighting bosses, none of whom have even close to 6500 armor that the Dread needs to equal the Paris

I didn't catch this earlier, but the whole point of the original post was to address how the PP falls short in the endgame. 

[TARINunit9]

 

Alright I see your point, and no I didn't test it lol.

(apologies for the ugly white spoiler background; the quote button glitched)

I just tested it x3 Here's my edit:

 

EDIT: Just confirmed it in the Simulacrum. Paris P with nothing but Speed Trigger and 360 Rad Damage versus Paris P with nothing but Speed Trigger and 360 Viral damage. Rad dealt 348 versus the Viral's 184

 

So yes, it's confirmed, Puncture/Radiation/Corrosive partially ignore the target's armor in addition to dealing additional damage

 

So if you, or anyone else reading this thread, is wondering how Puncture/Paris can still lose to Slash/Dread at level 95+, it's because of diminishing returns on the part of the armor, not the Paris/Puncture itself. Armor value of 5,000 might block 80% or so* of the damage, but armor of 10,000 will only block 90% or so*.

 

*these numbers I have not run yet

Edited August 15, 2015 by TARINunit9

[Koto]

So if you, or anyone else reading this thread, is wondering how Puncture/Paris can still lose to Slash/Dread at level 95+, it's because of diminishing returns on the part of the armor, not the Paris/Puncture itself. Armor value of 5,000 might block 80% or so* of the damage, but armor of 10,000 will only block 90% or so*.

 

*these numbers I have not run yet

 

"The main point I'm trying to get across here is that Armor Scaling causes greater diminishing-returns-over-time on armor modifiers than not-armor modifiers"

That's what I said here :c

Meh

Edited August 15, 2015 by Kotoge

[Lakais]

I don't get what the argument is about. This is only important information to the twyhard derp-squads who go for hours long T4 Survival runs because that "challenge" gives them their jollies.

 

And hey! I'm not gonna stop them or anything. Have at it! I just think it's going a bit towards "overplaying" things.

 

"Endgame" is what you make it to be. To some (and it seems the vocal ones) it's going on stupid long Void runs for... I dunno, "glory" or something. I got other things to take care of. Like get to the bottom of a large conspiracy, encompassing small fractions of Corpus and Grineer with a possible Rogue Tenno or two in the top.

 

No one can be trusted.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Lakais

[TARINunit9]

"The main point I'm trying to get across here is that Armor Scaling causes greater diminishing-returns-over-time on armor modifiers than not-armor modifiers"

That's what I said here :c

Meh

Right, I was just babbling at this point. My opinion at the start of the thread was the same as @Lakais here. Partly because I love my Paris and it was the bow that made Stalker drop my first Dread way back when and I had to fight not to overreact to people talking smack about it

[fishworshipper]

That's a rather confrontational title you got there.

 

 

So, in layman's terms, Slash damage's bonus against flesh eventually outweighs Puncture Damage's bonus against armor?

Edited August 15, 2015 by fishworshipper

[TARINunit9]

That's a rather confrontational title you got there.

 

 

So, in layman's terms, Slash damage's bonus against flesh eventually outweighs Puncture Damage's bonus against armor?

Yes. And it takes armor values of 6500+ to get to that "eventually" (which as OP demonstrated, takes about level 95)

[Koto]

That's a rather confrontational title you got there.

 

 

So, in layman's terms, Slash damage's bonus against flesh eventually outweighs Puncture Damage's bonus against armor?

I was going for something short and easy to remember like "TL;DR," but I will welcome the salt/pitchforks.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Kotoge

[HiSaZuL]

I read up until he said status on dread is useless...

 

And this has been established fact for a LONG time. Numbers aside, dread doesn't sound like a fat kid having explosive diarrhea, slightly faster arrows(could be a lot of people are just imagining that part), even a slightly better crit chance oh... and my favorite(sort of) it doesn't look $&*&*#(%&.

 

And once again, for the emphasis sake, slash damage status effect... unlike puncture(most useless status effect in the game bar nothing) does matter on SLOW firing weapons.

 

You like your practical numbers so much? Mkay, lets go with serration, split, 2 crit mods, speed trigger, hammer and dual stat corrosive combo.

 

Lvl 95 corrupted heavy gunner for target. Yellow crit generates 1k bleed ticks. Red crit generates 1.8k bleed ticks. Those are body shots. And you spew some inane garbage like status is useless on dread? Please don't embarrass yourself. In that one time I went there, just to get hard numbers it took 3 shots for me to kill lvl 95 heavy gunner. Guess where most of the damage came from?

 

At high levels all you get are those "pot" shots and then you hide. That is where bleeds shine... those bleeds that ignore armor and shields(not really all that important for this part but ignoring shields is still nice). Those bleeds that take TIME to work. See what I did there?

 

For such a long winded "captain obvious" post you sure didn't actually think about what you preach much.

Edited August 15, 2015 by HiSaZuL

[fatpig84]

PP does beat Dread in draw time / arrow reload.

So you can shoot out 1 more arrow marginally faster.

 

But bows are bows, you are not going to spam shot them.

[SweetSlaanesh]

Yeah I considered reading the post with a open mind but that statement alone just made the OP lose all credibility

The use of "objectively perceive" by OP made me mildly suicidal.

Edited August 15, 2015 by SweetSlaanesh