Melee 3.0: Three Ways To Fix The "bleh" Of The Current Melee System.

[Jamescell]

On the most recent devstream, the Devs mentioned the possibility of a "Melee 3.0". This thread will highlight the problems that I see with the current system. There are three main issues: Heavy weapon viability, combos chains/attack progression and the fact that Tenno are supposed to be the masters of gun and blade, not gun or blade. I think that it's important to highlight what the main issues are. However, I'm can't seem to muster up the will to make a post with extensive commentary or argument at this time. The points I make will be fairly assertive and curt. 

 

1.) This weapon is too heavy... In most cases, heavy weapons aren't worth using when lighter melee choices are available. This is because lighter weapons benefit more from the melee damage multiplier, and because lighter weapons have more mobile attack animations. The ability to get from one enemy to the next in an expedient fashion is very important when it comes to melee due to the fast pace of the game. A common feature that other games give heavy weapons to make them more useful is heavy across-the-board CC against enemies. Every hit not only does high damage, but in a big area. More specialized moves are almost guaranteed to throw the enemy around in some way. And again, mobility is extremely important. 

 

2.) M, M, pause M... darn! The stance system is a waste of the animation team's effort. Not only are there multiple stances for each class of weapon, but theres also multiple combos that perform the same function within each stance. Furthermore, since most combos do essentially the same things, each stance has a "ideal" combo chain that discourages the use of other combo chains. Thus tremendous effort that the animation team puts into creating the "stance" system boils down to only a few things- variety between weapon-types and a whole lot more RNG grind fest to access melee content. Contrary to popular belief more RNG is NOT better when dealing with core gameplay mechanics. Yeah... DE has a lot of work to do on that front. One of the most irritating parts about the stance/combo system is how unpractical and unrealistic it is. We're space-ninja-gods that excel in dispatching with out enemies efficiently, yet we waste time dancing around with swords? If nothing else, the combo progression system makes the melee experience quite irritating. If for some reason you can't complete the dancing choreography correctly, you don't get to use the one useful move somewhere near the end. Then it's back to the start of the dance-sequence!

 

Being the efficient mass-murderers that we are, the melee system should reflect functionality, not flashy swordsmanship. "Well James, you've criticized Melee 2.0 a whole lot, but what is your solution to the combo-chain problems that you've mentioned?" I'm glad you asked. As it is now, there would be different animation sets for each kind of weapon. However, for each weapon type there would only be one stance. Each stance would have a selection of attacks that players can choose to use- basic stuff right? Now here's the part that will blow your mind: you can actually choose what attack you want to use when you want to use it! (which means an end to combo-chains). Each weapon type would be outfitted with a variety of attacks. Instead you have a set of useful moves that each serve a distinct purpose and each would have a specific damage multiplier. For example, the one-handed sword could have a jab attack (high single-target damage, and mobile), a jump-up-and-slash-spin towards the ground attack (AOE stagger and high single target damage), a basic attack, a roll-and-slash attack (evasive and highly mobile with multi-target possiblity), and a swooping-360 attack (somewhat radial slash, multi-targeted, higher damage). Usually, the attacks with higher damage multipliers/AOE's take a bit longer to perform.

 

Keybindings would be based on the mobility inputs of players and charge attacks would be brought back in the form of key bindings. Let's go back to the example above: if you move forward and tap the melee button, you would roll-and-slash. If you move forward and hold down the melee button (charge attack), you would perform a flurry of forward facing jabs. If you have no movement input, you'll do a normal attack, if you charge attack with no movement input you'll do the swooping-360 attack, if you press space at the same time as melee you'll do the ground-flip-slam.

 

3.) Gun... or blade? Melee is better than ranged. Melee isn't better than ranged. These are two perspectives in a pointless argument over viability, when the question that should be asked is "why are we forced to choose?". Many players enjoy melee, but regardless of how enjoyable it is, there are many cases in which firearms are more effective. The lack of stance utilization and the absence of the melee multiplier for quick melee creates an unnecessary dichotomy of gameplay.

 

People often argue "you can always switch to your other weapon at any time y'know". And that's true, but it's a matter of efficiency. Imagine if we could only use either abilities or melee at once. You would be able to switch between the two, but you would have to press a button and watch an animation. What would be the point? It would limit our freedom in a cumbersome way, and limit the excellence of gameplay. Instead of using one or the other when most convenient, invariably, there would be cases where players use the less desirable of the two because they can't afford to deal with the separation-mechanics of the two systems. Just as abilities and guns are complimentary augments of our powers as Tenno, so too should be melee weapons. Separating melee and gunplay creates an audible clunkiness to gameplay, and prompts pointless discussions about which of the two is more viable. We are space-warrior-gods, I think that it's reasonable to expect that we can switch between full melee combo use and gunplay in a fluid manner. 

 

Oh I forgot! You would still have melee mode for parrying. Unless, of course, parrying was assigned to a convenient key.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Jamescell

[motorfirebox]

Couldn't agree more. I've always wished there were a more fluid way to transition between shooting and stabbing. This is made doubly frustrating by the fact that we already have a separate melee button—there's really no reason why melee should be a separate state from gunplay.

 

The main thing I would add to this post is that, as mentioned in the devstream, we really need the ability to break out of combos, Arkham-style. Between that and the clunkiness of the combos, I usually find it best to stick to quick melee.

[H3RRD0KT0R]

I agree with everything.

 

The worst part in my opinion is the combo/stance system, it hurts to see all those cool and creative animations just wasted... it needs a major overhaul and rework. While most other games with melee combos offer you the possibility to mix things up to create instinctive and useful combos, we are forced into combos that aren't any instinctive and that do not even fit the gameplay most of the time, it's like watching a karate kata or any fancy martial arts performance, it looks amazing, but the enemies aren't mobs acting in a kung fu movie, they don't just stay in the right spots so you can hit them. Some combos have really powerful and useful moves, but most are hidden behind many "not so useful" moves, no wonder most stances are used just to make the weapons faster or give them additional damage, or just to show off when not in battle. 

[unknow99]

4) Bring charge attacks back.

[smokednin]

I think it's safe to say that Melee 2.0 definitely came with its share of... downsides. Hopefully we seen at least a little tweaking soon.

 

 

 

I agree with what you said about heavier weapons. They're not bad (except [ether]Reaper[prime] and Hate), they just aren't as fun because it's often harder to hit things with them. Being able to break out of combos like motorfirebox mentioned would really help in a lot of circumstances. Just allowing the jump button to let you jump out of a combo would be a quick, and easy solution IMO.

 

As far as stances go, I think the best way to work with them is to make them a little bit more worth doing (and easier to do). Tweaking the speeds, hitbox-sizes, and damage multipliers across the board would be nice. What you suggest would be pretty cool, but it seems like a lot of work at this point. We do need more range, power, and accessibility on most stance-moves though.

 

And the last section of your post... is personally my biggest gripe with Melee 2.0 :/ Back in Melee 1.0, gunplay and swordplay mixed together smoothly, because you didn't have to change weapons to bring out either's true potential. Now you have to sit through an animation in between (which feels painfully long in the middle of high-level combat). Sure there's Quick Melee, but it just feels worse than Melee 1.0 due to the way they dumbed down the basic combo. :c 

 

 

 

What I'd like to see most: make switching between melee and guns near-instant, bring charge attacks back pls (for Quick Melee AND Equipped Melee), bring the combo-counter into Quick Melee as well, buff Quick Melee a little and give it back the old simple combos it used to have, instead of these ridiculous-looking 2-move loops (or in the machete's case... 1 animation over and over...). That's just how I feel though.

[WilYen]

on the third point...I DON'T WANT TO USE A GUN. i would rather go melee only.

[Jamescell]

4) Bring charge attacks back.

Re-read the second section. Coincidentally, I was editing the post because I forgot charged attacks.

[5h1n0k4m1]

c'mon, saying that we are masters of gun and blade does not mean that we must use them simultaneously

 

also, i really enjoy the stances and combos system

...where there is people enjoying, there is people not liking

[Defendor]

I agree with everything except 1. Jat Kittag, Scindo Prime and Galatine are some of the best melee weapons available right now. I don't see how they need additional buffs or CC, especially when they already have plenty of CC in both hammer stances and Tempo Royale.

[unknow99]

Re-read the second section. Coincidentally, I was editing the post because I forgot charged attacks.

Hey don't tell me what to d-

 

Wow, you're a genius. :)

[Jamescell]

I agree with everything except 1. Jat Kittag, Scindo Prime and Galatine are some of the best melee weapons available right now. I don't see how they need additional buffs or CC, especially when they already have plenty of CC in both hammer stances and Tempo Royale.

When it counts, the weapons aren't mobile enough or impact-full enough. Enemies will tear you apart between swings. 

[(PSN)swamprat3]

With this being the year of quality i hope the melee system gets some of it i mean channelling is unsupported clunkey and bad and that last part about switching between modes needs to be done i know i dont use it mutch because of that it should be fluid and quick were pulling a well kept sword not a rusty frying pan

[Burosan]

I recently saw a video of a game called bloodbourne where there is a boss fight with a witch on a roof.

Wow, the melee combat looked intense with the player having to micro their movement and time there attacks very precisely.

Warframe looks pretty pulling off sick moves and for it to be meaningful dmg multipliers are given further down the chain. The system locks players into these combos encouraging button smashing further supported with the need for pressing one button. There is it seems a disconnect between the animation team and play. I can imagine its hard to coordinate and develop responsive melee combat but if you could develop intense, skillful melee combat that would be cool.

The overriding issue in all this is how to reward skill with quick execution? At the end of the day if melee becomes slower than guns, then that's only going to lengthen your grinding time.

Perhaps there should be more melee missions with only melee adversaries that are challenging to fight. Or boss fights where using melee micro is needed. They come with their own rewards, maybe melee arcane enhancements. Perhaps there could be environments which are highly ignitable so gunfire is cannot be used. Or an enemy that deploys something that will injure the party if they fire through it, so melee needs to used to handle that situation.

Its sad that in this game you can't melee certain areas of the body, you could be point blank with Vor, and somehow you cant hit his midsection. Another sad point is you could have a dagger equipped and you wont be able to hit a crawler, not even if u look down on it or crouch.

Hell yeah melee needs some updating in the melee department.

And .... Final Harbinger, kind of nice, but, why do u have to leap on the 2nd hit? Its not easy to control. You could be in amongst some mobs attacking one then leaping through it, instead of being able to turn and fight the others. Maybe if it was the 3rd or 4th attack it would be less intrusive to individual play, but its unavoidable on every 2nd attack.

At the moment Scindo with Tempo Royale is far ahead of everything else melee. but then 10-20% of stuff is suppose to be legitimately good top of the range stuff. I get it, its a progression tree that you work on to ascend. The fist stuff was good with obex, kogake and ankyros, but they'll only get you through early to mid level content.

Maybe a mission might be to defend something from unkillable machine so u have to cc with melee all day to keep it clear before they get back up and come at you again, but more keep coming!!! Until a power core has been virused hard enough for the control systems for the machines to shut them down..... Or they they loaded with a new control interface so they follow the tenno for the next section of the mission. But they get destroyed when they confront some next level corrosive magma spewing thing.

Agree very much with the op that combo chains need to be looked at. More control over specific moves would be good so it feels you are in combat not so focused on combo chains with a set timing, focused more on allowing the player to be responsive. When I think of all good melee combat games, they seem to require to watch your opponent carefully, look for openings and take advantage of this. That just isnt in warframe I sorry to tell you, but i greatly wish it was, cos i am literally playing this game to death.

[Defendor]

When it counts, the weapons aren't mobile enough or impact-full enough. Enemies will tear you apart between swings. 

 

IIRC they have some of the highest melee DPS in the game. Scindo P has the highest, of course, but the others aren't that far behind and have their own advantages. They're not even slow when modded right, or in other words when Berserker is used. Their only issue is that they're not ideal for quick swings between shooting, but I think a gigantic hammer not being great for quick melee is perfectly ok.

 

I've used Jat Kittag + Shattering Ruin in plenty of high-level content and it's really good for both crowd control and damage. Its slam attack has a radius so big enemies spend most of their time flying around instead of attacking.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Defendor

[(PSN)atpbx]

Easy solution is quick melee should auto equip your melee weapon and transition into combos.

 

Its not rocket surgery or brain science.

 

When you want to shoot?

 

Well, then you have to press the swap weapon button, with weapon holstering and swap times improved by the new "quick draw" mod you can stick in your passive slot.

 

Bam! mind = blown.

[porcelio26]

My thoughts on this would be:

 

1. Enable combos on Quick Melee (or Quick Melee button goes into melee mode)

2. Merge Parry and Channeling button to RMB (for PC) and LMB is used to do Quick Shoot using the secondary

 

This way we'll have better experience in close counter combat due to combos being enabled in Quick Melee mode, albeit channeling is still disabled

Melee mode will still have the advantage of channeling and parrying. And even better, you can shoot enemies from afar with your secondary (without zooming of course). This way you'll eliminate the time required to switch weapon.

[Samura1Kitten]

My thoughts on this would be:

 

1. Enable combos on Quick Melee (or Quick Melee button goes into melee mode)

2. Merge Parry and Channeling button to RMB (for PC) and LMB is used to do Quick Shoot using the secondary

 

This way we'll have better experience in close counter combat due to combos being enabled in Quick Melee mode, albeit channeling is still disabled

Melee mode will still have the advantage of channeling and parrying. And even better, you can shoot enemies from afar with your secondary (without zooming of course). This way you'll eliminate the time required to switch weapon.

 

I agree with the OP, and I agree with your #1.

 

I've always wondered whether I was the only one who did not care about melee combos. Well, I guess that isn't exactly true. I do care. But I find it so clunky, I never bothered with them since about a couple of weeks after Melee 2.0 was released.

 

So many melee weapons, so many stances, so many combos. I have trouble remembering which combos go with what. Plus, there is also lag. I try to combo, miss the window because of lag, and I have to redo the move all over again.

 

So since then, I hardly use combos. I bound my melee attacks and quick melee to my mouse downscroll and hammer away. The mobs still die. Then I found out that equipping a syndicate secondary then simply quick melee gives the benefit of both worlds: syndicate powers going off every once in a while, while doing melee. This was before the Prisma Skana. Even now, I actually still use other melee weapons, preferring high AS and/or crit chance.

 

So why can't I use combos during quick melee? Why the distinction? It takes a second or so to go full melee, a second or more I am taking fire while preparing to attack, instead of actually attacking. Quick melee should just be melee, and let the combos flow similar to what the OP suggested.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Samura1Kitten

[Atacam]

I like that the melee has different combo animations. That way you don't always see the same set of swings over and over again but like it has been said. You end up choosing one combo over the others so in the end you see the same animations over and over again. Also the beginning of most combos start off the same so even if you do do something different it still looks the same at the start.

The main problem I have with melee right now getting the combos off. If I use high attack speed with fury bezerker and warcry how am I suppose to be able to pause or hold in all that blender mess?

I think the combos input should be simplified. Remove the repeated animation between them all. Make each combo do something worth while to make you switch between them. Different weapons and stances would be different but for an example.

Just attack for single target damage.

Hold block and attack or aoe damage.

Foward and attack for lunging line damage.

Foward block and attack for blast proc.

This way I could choose which would be better depending if I'm trying to focus down a heavy, if I'm surrounded, if I'm trying to reach a distant enemy, ect. Also no matter how fast the animations go it would still be easy to pull off the combo I want. This isn't a fighting game. The only frames I should be counting are the ones I built.

[(PSN)VariantX7]

I wish we had an alternate input system for controllers. The pausing doesn't make sense to me when I have unused buttons when in melee mode when I could just hit a button instead of the awkward pause. The holds are fine. I also agree with point #1, its pretty bad for some weapons like the magistar. The hits from heavy, impact based weapons should stagger and daze your targets more. Instead, it just feels like im swinging a ball and chain but with the hit response of hitting someone with a dagger or sword. It might be hitting like a truck in terms of damage, but the hit reactions are too week, and you can get hit back in between swings it seems.

Edited August 27, 2015 by (PS4)VariantX7

[Hecro]

I don't think bringing back is going to solve anything. Once we got used to them, it's fine.

 

It will come into the choice of Charge attacks Vs Combos, and back then we all answered charge attacks. Getting them back would only empower the problem in my opinion.

[Defendor]

I don't think bringing back is going to solve anything. Once we got used to them, it's fine.

 

It will come into the choice of Charge attacks Vs Combos, and back then we all answered charge attacks. Getting them back would only empower the problem in my opinion.

 

Each attack type should have its niche. In other games, charge attacks deal high instant damage or have rider effects like knockdown, while fast attacks have higher DPS. I don't see why WF should be different.

[Hecro]

Each attack type should have its niche. In other games, charge attacks deal high instant damage or have rider effects like knockdown, while fast attacks have higher DPS. I don't see why WF should be different.

Because community will eventually find out a way of exploiting one way over the other by the usage of mods.

[IceColdas]

I agree it would be nice to auto equip your melee weapon when quick attacking, and put it back when you stop. Throwing weapons xan be triggered to explode with another quick melee press. It would make melee syndicate mods more fluid to use (I use the Kestrel). Not sure how blocking would work though, and I guess you have to time channeling right. But it would remove having to specifically switch to it, makes it more fluid. Not quite melee 3.0 but this would help. Charge attacks on non-throwing would be nice too, also helps stealth.

[Axeroix]

The only problem I have is core aspects of gameplay aren't even built with melee in mind, just look at the bosses, Vay Hek, Raptor, Sargas Ruk, and Lephantis are literally Impossible with melee alone.

 

What I would love to see is the return of Charge attacks but on Stances, so each existing stance now has a Hold E combo which is a super cool looking Super heavy attack with something around a 3-4 second charge, increasing the charge time as well as the damage would really balance out the idea that its meant to be a super heavy attack, back in the day, the Orthos Prime and Galatines charge were the thing that were mainly used, the Orthos' charge speed and range meant that it could basically do Charges more often than normal attacks at a Suprisingly safe Range, with mods the Galatines Charge speed could be gotten to a manageable amount and was still able to kill almost every enemy in the game, the changes I would suggest ot Charge attacks is that there are NO charge speed mods reintroduced into the game and that even weapons with fast charge times would be slower, for instance having the Orthos' charge time being the same as the old unmodded Galatine charge speed.

 

TLDR: Charge Attacks should have high burst damage with normal melee having better sustain damage

Edited August 27, 2015 by Axeroix

[Samura1Kitten]

The only problem I have is core aspects of gameplay aren't even built with melee in mind, just look at the bosses, Vay Hek, Raptor, Sargas Ruk, and Lephantis are literally Impossible with melee alone.

 

That is also a very good point, and I agree wholeheartedly.