Base Damage And Multishot Mods Limit Player Choice

[kingdomblitz]

The Problem:

 

I'm just gonna jump into the problem i'm presenting, Mods like Serration and Split chamber limit the choices we can make when modding out our weapons. Serration and Split chamber increase damage with no downsides whatsoever which mean that when modding, these mods part of every build no matter the weapon. The increase in base damage that these mods provide aren't the problem but the space that they take up is. There is never a time when serration is a bad addition and the same can be said for split chamber and other multishot mods as well with the exception of using weapons like the penta or castanas, since there is a limit to how many explosives you can have out at a single time. Since these mods are so paramount, they no longer become choices and are simply calculations .This mean that we really only have at least 6 mods slots where we actually have to think about what we're putting in them. If your using a crit weapon there are even less slots to work with since u need those crit mods to have a optimal weapon.

 

Possible Solution:

 

The idea i thought of to fix this was to have weapon become more powerful as they level up kinda like how warframe abilities work right now. Like for example when an unranked boltor prime increases in level it would gain 5.5% base damage for each level resulting in a 165% base damage increase by level 30 to compensate for the lost of serration. Sidearms and shot guns might have different scaling since they have a different selection of mods.The increase in  base damage would have to be greater since it currently doesn't consider the damage increase of split chamber. These changes could also be made to other stats of a weapon like crit chance/damage,status, or even mag size. 

 

Possible downsides:

 

If this system where to be put in place it would result in weapons becoming more powerful since you would now have the option to add more elemental / physical damage mods to your weapons which might be something that DE doesn't want. I mean the boltor prime is already stupid strong as is and this would make it even more so but the boltor prime is another issue that i don't want to get into in this post.

 

Another problem I see happening is that leveling up a weapon feels more annoying since you wouldn't be able to increase the power of your weapons by large amounts like you can now.  

 

conclusion:

 

Overall I think that by removing mods like Serration , hornet strike , hell's chamber and compensating for the damage loss in some way will the players will have a little more freedom in modding out there weapon the way they want to or at least have not have all theses build look the same. Thanks for your time.

Edited August 31, 2015 by kingdomblitz

[Kestral9999]

Tl;dr: Another Serration removal thread.

 

 

To OP: This was a hot topic several months back, DE was tossing around this exact idea for a while but it's been quite some time since any mention of it has been made. I'm beginning to doubt it will ever happen.

 

Multi-shot mods should remain. Raw damage mods should go.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Kestral9999

[[DE]Grzegorz]

If we remove raw +Damage and +Multishot mods, people will throw in the next pair of mods that increase overall damage output, so such changes don't resolve the issues of powercreep but make it worse.

[kingdomblitz]

If we remove raw +Damage and +Multishot mods, people will throw in the next pair of mods that increase overall damage output, so such changes don't resolve the issues of powercreep but make it worse.

This is something i address in my post and while the removal of the +damage and +multishot won't fix power creep in will allow more freedom with modding. You could add more utility mods in... or use the extra space to add more damage.

[(XBOX)BAMMM Lightning]

I'd like to see the removal of those base damage mods and have the bonuses applies innately to the weapon from lvl 0. Increasing the weapon lvl allows increase mod capacity like it currently does now, but then you have the option of customizing the behavior with current mods like reload speed, punch through, magazine capacity, elementals, etc. Corrupted mods like heavy caliber can stay a mod since it provides a benefit for a cost.   

[kingdomblitz]

Tl;dr: Another Serration removal thread.

 

 

To OP: This was a hot topic several months back, DE was tossing around this exact idea for a while but it's been quite some time since any mention of it has been made. I'm beginning to doubt it will ever happen.

 

Multi-shot mods should remain. Raw damage mods should go.

why do you say that mutishot mods should stay while +base damage should go?

[Zagrax]

The only way utility mods will ever legit get used in any kind of serious build is if there are simply no more damage mods to add. (there is quite a few!)

 

If we want to see utility mods used, it'll probably require the addition of exilus slots for weapons, and the support for reload speed, recoil reduction and such to be able to fit there.

 

While the removal of serration might be nice just so we wouldn't need so many freaking forma to max mod a weapon, it wouldn't help on addressing power creep.

[Kestral9999]

why do you say that mutishot mods should stay while +base damage should go?

Because the only mods DE ever considered removing were the base damage mods for a reason. Multishot serves a purpose and is worth the slot whereas base damage mods do not and are not.

 

Not to mention, if we remove both of those and passively integrate them into our weapons' level, the powercreep is that much more apparent. 

[Aeraxis]

Gunplay 2.0

Remove: Serration, Hornet Strike, Point Blank, Pressure Point

Add: Damage Scaling based on weapon level. (1-30)

 

This is actually a pretty good idea. There would definitely need to be a balancing pass done to all weapons but it would definitely make for more diverse builds and could possibly make more weapons more effective.

 

Multishot Mods is where it gets tricky. No weapon technically should have this feature... and I feel like its a sort of bandaid mod to increase damage with a small bit of RNG. Since no weapon has this as a base feature... I myself would rather a flat 85% damage increase added in its stead (again based on the weapons level), and multishot mods be removed. 

 

Example

 

Damage added for a lvl 30 weapon:

Serration (+165%) + Split Chamber (+85%) = +250% at lvl 30

Hornet Strike (+220%) + Barrel Diffusion (+85%) = 305% at lvl 30   (Lethal Torrent should be changed to firerate/punch through, or firerate/mag size)

Primed Point Blank (+165%) + Hells Chamber (+85%) = +250% at lvl 30

Edited August 31, 2015 by Aeraxis

[kingdomblitz]

Because the only mods DE ever considered removing were the base damage mods for a reason. Multishot serves a purpose and is worth the slot whereas base damage mods do not and are not.

 

Not to mention, if we remove both of those and passively integrate them into our weapons' level, the powercreep is that much more apparent. 

Maybe your seeing something i'm not, how i understand that the multishot mods work is that they increase the pellet count of a weapon but functionally this only increases damage and effect the status chance of a weapon. Is it because of the effect on status chance that you think multishot mods should stay?

[zoboso]

If we remove raw +Damage and +Multishot mods, people will throw in the next pair of mods that increase overall damage output, so such changes don't resolve the issues of powercreep but make it worse.

 

This comment is why the lack of incomparables in the mod system is such a problem. the mods are too easily compared because the majority of the mods are just add damage. And the mods that do not just add damage are typically weaker than the mods that do add damage.

[kingdomblitz]

Gunplay 2.0

Remove: Serration, Hornet Strike, Point Blank, Pressure Point

Add: Damage Scaling based on weapon level. (1-30)

 

This is actually a pretty good idea. There would definitely need to be a balancing pass done to all weapons but it would definitely make for more diverse builds and could possibly make more weapons more effective.

 

Multishot Mods is where it gets tricky. No weapon technically should have this feature... and I feel like its a sort of bandaid mod to increase damage with a small bit of RNG. Since no weapon has this as a base feature... I myself would rather a flat 85% damage increase added in its stead (again based on the weapons level), and multishot mods be removed. 

 

Example

 

Damage added for a lvl 30 weapon:

Serration (+165%) + Split Chamber (+85%) = +250% at lvl 30

Hornet Strike (+220%) + Barrel Diffusion (+85%) = 305% at lvl 30   (Lethal Torrent should be changed to firerate/punch through, or firerate/mag size)

Primed Point Blank (+165%) + Hells Chamber (+85%) = +250% at lvl 30

Multishot also increases the status chance of a weapon so that might have to be compensated for as well or maybe not. 

[Kestral9999]

Maybe your seeing something i'm not, how i understand that the multishot mods work is that they increase the pellet count of a weapon but functionally this only increases damage and effect the status chance of a weapon. Is it because of the effect on status chance that you think multishot mods should stay?

It's as simple as this, it isn't just a straight damage per pellet increase. Doesn't need to be any more complicated than that to stay.

[kingdomblitz]

This comment is why the lack of incomparables in the mod system is such a problem. the mods are too easily compared because the majority of the mods are just add damage. And the mods that do not just add damage are typically weaker than the mods that do add damage.

i completely agree with you, the current system allows us to compare bigger apples to smaller ones as apposed to apple to oranges. Bigger is better.

[kingdomblitz]

It's as simple as this, it isn't just a straight damage per pellet increase. Doesn't need to be any more complicated than that to stay.

ok now i see where your coming from but don't you think that the multishot mods are a bit of a crutch since the chance of multishot is so high?

[Kestral9999]

ok now i see where your coming from but don't you think that the multishot mods are a bit of a crutch since the chance of multishot is so high?

You could argue that, but them being a crutch is not nearly as bad as the base damage mods being a staple. There are a few weapons out there that don't benefit as heavily from multi-shot mods as others but every single weapon in the game benefits from a base damage increase. That's why Serration and its ilk should become passively integrated. It's an absolute requirement in any build.

[elele]

If you consider weapons to have only 6 mod slots instead of 8, you won't be bothered so much. 

[Wargum]

kingdomblitz I can agree with what you said at the beginning, just some additional suggestions:

Actually I don't think that the "mandatory mods" are a huge problem in warframe right now. I like multishot (seems like something unique in wf i never found in other games....).

 

How the removal could be done:

 

- multishot costs additional ammo (in fact it would work out like a firerate mod),

 

but:

multishot on shotguns stays rather untouched because how would you have the feeling of a shotgun that shoots 1 bullet at a time?

 

- base damage mods get removed (like f.ex. serration),

 

but:

the serration damage will be added to the weapon while leveling up

f.ex.: soma lvl 1 = 10 dmg soma lvl 30= 26 dmg

 

-problem for forma'd weapons:

if you dont need your f.ex. v slot anymore and want to put a utility mod like stabilizer

you would have to forma again to replace the slot and make your builds work after the base dmg mods have been removed

= that is a fcking bad joke :)

 

solution:

forma on all weapons will be removed,

 

but: you get another kind of forma = instaforma

you can use it to instantly put a polarity on your weapon without having to rank it up to 30 again and again

 

(maybe even catalysts could be made removable)

 

-problem with the removed mods:

you loose the credits and cores you put on f.ex. serration

 

solution: you simply get fusion cores back (generously), maybe also credits or whatever

Edited September 24, 2015 by Wargum

[LordRaine]

Multishot is going to become garbage anyway because DE doesn't play their own game, and they don't understand or comprehend what making it cost ammo out of the magazine would do.

 

Some guns, like the Twin Graks, are good ONLY BECAUSE the bullet volume is so high. Every low damage, high RoF gun in the game is going to eat dirt when that change gets implimented, and DE doesn't even realize it yet. Multishot was what made things like thrown weapons, continuous fire weapons, and machinegun style weapons like the Twin Vipers or the Gorgon good.

 

Kill multishot, and all that goes away. All of it. You think there's only a few useful guns in the game right now, wait until 4 out of every five guns that sees common use in one move. There's only going to be about seven or eight usable high-end weapons, period, and in a game with over THREE HUNDRED weapons, that's completely unacceptable.

 

Also, simply removing base damage mods by making it innate to the leveling of the gun and taking away Multishot isn't going to fix anything. This is a two pronged problem, because some mods are too mandatory (like Serration), but others are completely and utterly useless (like Warm Coat or Eagle Eye).

 

Simply throwing out the mandatory mods won't fix the system, because then we'll be choosing between a bunch of crappy mods that we honestly would have never used even if we did have the space. It won't change what people do. People will still stack damage exclusively. It will just change what mods they use to do it. People will still put Vs and -s on all their guns, they'll just be stacking base elemental damage and the event mods on instead of the 'core' damage mods we have now.

 

To fix the problem, actually fix it, DE would have to do what TheGreatZamboni proposed, and trash the entire current mod system and start over from scratch, like what the PvP guys are doing over in their little corner. Put a greater emphasis on weapon and weapon type specific mods, and greatly reduce the number of mod slots on all weapons. But they never will. Steve refuses to accept any significant changes to his alledged "artistic vision" of the game. That's why he threw a tantrum about it when questioned about Zamboni's proposal on the livestream.

 

What needs to happen will never happen. DE will eventually take away Serration and Hornet Strike, and everyone will just switch to using Impact/Puncture/Slash mods, event elemental mods, and base elemental mods instead, with slight variations to distribution depending on the gun's own base damage allocation. Just like it is now. Nothing will actually change.

[Chtulie]

Or add another item to the game, one which allows polarities to be moved from one slot to another. Make it cheap like 5k standing from simaris and maybe either not requiring you to prestige the weapon or not requiring the weapon to be lvl 30 to use it and then have it reset (if there really must be some more grind).

After all, it doest add to capacity and is really just there to adjust bad forma use choice or adjust to a patch or rework in some other way.

Thinking about it now, i feel its a respec option the game has been missing.

[Chtulie]

 

To fix the problem, actually fix it, DE would have to do what TheGreatZamboni proposed, and trash the entire current mod system and start over from scratch, like what the PvP guys are doing over in their little corner. Put a greater emphasis on weapon and weapon type specific mods, and greatly reduce the number of mod slots on all weapons. But they never will. Steve refuses to accept any significant changes to his alledged "artistic vision" of the game. That's why he threw a tantrum about it when questioned about Zamboni's proposal on the livestream.

 

I just have to point out, got to, cant wtop it, that the mod system we have is the result of a complete scrapping and new system from an earlier modding and levelling system. One im not eager to ever go back to.

And it also needs to be pointed out that pretty much every gameplay system has by now seen a complete overhaul (except melee maybe).

So keep in mind theyre not afraid to, eventually, after some good arguments and discussions rather then what you mostly see, they will and do accept big, big changes.

[LordRaine]

You don't want to go back to the perk system? It was objectively better in almost every single respect to the modding system.

 

The mod system was a placeholder for a better system that was never developed. That is actually what happened. They took out the perks and gave us mods as a temporary stopgap, as they were supposedly overhauling the perk system. Only that just sort of stopped and it was never re-implimented. The current mod system is and always has been a bandaid system from the moment of it's inception. It was never intended to drag on this long, and anyone who is crowing about the "diversity" it grants them in their loadout choices is either an idiot, or never goes anywhere further out than Mars. In which case, more power to them, you don't have to leave DEAC if you don't want to. But don't then turn around and say the weapons and frames and mod system are all balanced. They aren't.

 

And yes, they are afraid to. They've mentioned repeatedly that they "value the time and effort" the "dedicated players" have invested into the game.

 

This is a complete disconnect from reality. I've spent thousands of hours playing this game, and if they nuked the mod system tomorrow for something better, like what Zamboni proposed, I would cheer.

 

DE is making excuses, just like they always do. They excuse poor quality and bad design because "it's still a beta," but it's got cross-platform support on the PS4, the Xbone, and Steam and an in-game store that makes them hundreds of thousands. We sign a waiver saying we agree to have anything changed at any point in time because we are beta testers, but DE excuses not making the radical changes they need to by saying they don't want to upset us (itself a lie: I would love an upset like that). They say we are beta testers and are here to help test the game to make sure it is ready for "release," but datamining has been grounds for a permaban ever since the dataminers caught Glen flat-out lying about the changes to the drop tables he made.

 

They are afraid to. There is no question of it. They don't want us to beta-test the game, and ban anyone who tries to. They hold "it's a beta" up like a shield to deflect criticism while raking in money from console players. They get out of having to do real work overhauling the game because they "don't want to upset people," even when people are asking for these changes and we all signed a waiver just to play the game saying that we can't complain about it. They sell Prime Access like most games sell major expansions and DLC, at similar or greater prices, and yet it's still a beta.

 

What beta do you know charges the price of a full AAA title game for a new character with some gold trim and a new gun? Besides Warframe.