Fixing Melee Will Eliminate A Lot Of The Boring Repetition -- Here's How To Do It

[Fifield]

Even with the weak damage, I prefer melee to using guns.  Standing, aiming and reloading just gets real old.  

 

Melee is charging in up close and personal whilst blocking Jedi-style, swinging your Orthos Prime gracefully and cutting the Heavy Gunner in two, rolling to the next one, blocking those knockdown attacks, showing your team what skill looks like... LOL

Melee needs a buff, not a rework.  Sure the combos are overcomplicated but the rest is fine, just weak.  Every player I've talked to agrees melee is weak, particularly vs lvl 80+ enemies.

1. The Damage Buff

How weak is melee? Take your average large room with enemies in Warframe.  Let's say there are half a dozen enemies in total.  How long does it take to kill everything with a rifle and get out?  With guns, everything dies in 2 bullets or less, so maybe a dozen bullets.  With melee, you have to run up to one, hit it a couple of times, run to the next one etc.

It's going to take 10-80% longer with melee if you're leaving via a far away exit and up to 300% longer if you're leaving the same way you came in.

 

Now some people might say "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight".  I would respond "Do you want this game to be fun or not?"  Add in much reduced survivability and melee should outdamage guns.  Arguably, melee should outdamage guns even more because it has a much higher skill requirement.

Consequently, melee ought to have an extra mod slot, particularly with its diverse mod set (when channeling mods are reworked as below). Fine-tuning can be done by adjusting Pressure Point.

 

2. The Survivability Buff

Let's look at 'endgame' eg T4D at 60 mins:

 

Ranged can put out 20k dps without worrying about getting hit because they're inside the Snow Globe.  Melee steps out, dies within 2 seconds and puts the whole mission at risk.

 

Here, melee is almost useless ie guns are 5-10x more useful ("almost" because within the Snow Globe Combo Count vs high EHP enemies gives melee one of the few places it's better).

If melee is to compete with guns late game, melee mode needs a massive survivability buff.

The best way to do this is something like a shield-gate mechanism as used in Borderlands 2 and Mass Effect 3.

Mechanism as below:

In melee mode, any shot (attack?) which would otherwise have downed you is automatically parried, unless this has saved you in the last 5 seconds.

This is either a channelled parry that costs you energy or, if you don't have enough, a normal parry which merely reduces the damage.  The parry lasts a second although can be cancelled by a strike.  It can be extended into either a normal or channelled parry, or turned into a roll and pray.

 

Would this be enough?  Probably not.  DE should commit to buffing melee (damage or survivability as necessary) until 40+% of damage in T4 is via melee.

 

3.  The Channeling Buff

Channelling costs far too much energy and is thus possibly worse than useless unless you have an EV Trinity (or are using Life Strike).  Also, most of the mods are useless.

 

The channeling cost per strike should be 3, 2 or 1 energy per strike, depending on whether using large weapon, medium or dagger.  Reflex Coil should add 60% boost to damage along with the efficiency and thus become the main channelling mod.  Killing Blow will only be used when Trinity is around. All other channelling mods need a major buff/rework.

 

AOE attacks should not cost more energy.  What these changes then encourage is channelled attacks vs AOE or dangerous enemies.

 

There are no figures available on energy costs of channelled blocking but people seem to agree that they should be roughly halved.

One more simple change to make melee more fun

 

4. Allow us to go straight from quick melee into melee mode. Currently, Tenno puts eg his sword away, gets out his gun, puts it back then gets out his sword again.

[Eldnacpeek]

Agreed with absolutely everything.

[Jeloxale]

Someone please hire this guy to the balancing sector!

I love it when a new one(melee buff thread) pops up, because one more reason to do as they say and buff melee!

[Spot.]

You say melee is weak, but theoretically its damage  can scale endlessly threw the Combo Counter. However it may be hard to pull off as you have to keep hitting enemies under a 3 second window or else you're damage multiplier disappears.

 

Would you like to give some ideas on how the combo counter can be improved? 

Edited August 31, 2015 by SpottedSweater

[ToxicTroublermaker]

You're over exaggerating the downsides of melee only.

[Epicagemo]

You're over exaggerating the downsides of melee only.

Then what are the upsides?

[Fifield]

Someone please hire this guy to the balancing sector!

 

Thanks but it's not just me.  There are literally hundreds of players who can balance stuff and for free.

I find it incredible that DE and almost every other game producer don't make better use of their players' understanding of and passion for the games.  Think about where DOTA 2 and the rest of the $1+bn MOBA scene come from.  One player, producing a mod for a completely different type of game (Warcraft 3).  Team Fortess is another example.

 

My clan could balance all weapons in a couple of hours and, again, we'd do it for free.

 

I think threads like this are a great start: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/519495-august-28th-community-hot-topics/  but these forums are clearly limited as a means of getting the best feedback to DE.

[5H4DE]

Imo , channeling should be removed enitrely and the mods reworked as curently only lifestrike is worth taking . Instead of channeling let us shoot our secondary weapon with left click .

[ADM-Ntek]

as someone who uses melee almost exclusively i agree.

[Fifield]

You say melee is weak, but theoretically its damage  can scale endlessly threw the Combo Counter. However it may be hard to pull off as you have to keep hitting enemies under a 3 second window or else you're damage multiplier disappears.

 

Would you like to give some ideas on how the combo counter can be improved? 

 

Because melee is so weak, people look to buff all parts of it when only some of them need buffing.   It's difficult to evaluate Combo Counter because we need both tanky enemies and survivability to use it.  

I only really see it in operation in 2 situations.  I talked about using it to kill Heavy Gunners around wave 55 of T4D.  Another situation is when you have 2 Trinities (one Blessing) around 40 mins into T4S.  Incidentally, shotguns now outscale melee in Survival which is another reason why melee needs the damage buff.

 

From a design point of view, Combo Counter works both to stop you spamming E and to deal with bullet sponge enemies.  I don't think the multiplier announcements are prominent enough for people to even pay attention.  Nor is it explained anywhere apart from a subsection on the long Melee 2.0 page on the Wiki what it actually means/does: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Melee_2.0#Combo_Counter

 

3 seconds could be increased to 4s but that's plenty of time to get to any enemy in a medium sized room.  There are a couple of mods which are dependent on Combo Counter btw.

[Aeron216]

10/10 man!!! 

[FoxyKabam]

great post

[JalakBali]

I like a lot of the ideas in the OP and would like to add to that a little bit:

 

1. Blocking should be made more viable instead of simple, flat damage reduction. Instead, blocking should be like it was before except using "stamina" that is tied to wall latch and aim glide, mechanics that are seldom used so adding useage to that should help. So the length you could block should be limited.

 

2. Combos should give more damage. Right now, most combos are there only to look cool or simply make your attacks faster and further. Tricky combos should be lots of damage multipliers like in certain stances, with other combos giving out effects like armor reduction, bleed, slow, ragdoll, stun, etc. So there should be reasons to use certain combos. With this, equipping melee would be more beneficial than quick slash.

[Ailissa]

I find it incredible that DE and almost every other game producer don't make better use of their players' understanding of and passion for the games.  

 

Because for every 1 good idea there are hundreds of terrible ones.

 

Many devs have said why they don't listen to their player base more, because the ideas the player base come up with would ruin the games.

 

I've seen a lot of people come up with a lot of ideas for this game in the time i've played it. Out of the hundreds of ideas i've read there are probably only a handful that were any good.

 

You could have all the passion in the world, a bad idea is still a bad idea.

 

That being said, melee does need a buff, it has needed one for a while now. I don't think they should out dps guns, that's a ridiculous idea, but they do need buffing.

[BladeBehindTheSmile]

 

Now some people might say "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight".  I would respond "Do you want this game to be fun or not?"  

Also, Tenno are all about bringing knives to gun fights and winning. It's sort of their thing. And when you train yourself to be able to stop bullets, and have advanced &#! technology to enhance your ability, bringing a knife won't be a problem in the slightest, so why not reflect that in the gameplay?

 

Also more opportunities to do take downs would be a nice addition to the take re-balancing. Maybe a push function that staggers enemies, making them open for a takedown. It's stupid how only a few frames can do it consistently without wasting a mod slot, and those ones have to pay energy, just to cinematically dispatch some scrub enemy (because bosses don't get staggered in that manner)

[Bipp]

I like a lot of the ideas in the OP and would like to add to that a little bit:

 

1. Blocking should be made more viable instead of simple, flat damage reduction. Instead, blocking should be like it was before except using "stamina" that is tied to wall latch and aim glide, mechanics that are seldom used so adding useage to that should help. So the length you could block should be limited.

 

2. Combos should give more damage. Right now, most combos are there only to look cool or simply make your attacks faster and further. Tricky combos should be lots of damage multipliers like in certain stances, with other combos giving out effects like armor reduction, bleed, slow, ragdoll, stun, etc. So there should be reasons to use certain combos. With this, equipping melee would be more beneficial than quick slash.

I made a thread about reintroducing 'stamina' but for blocking only for melee. Let's just say the thread did not do well.

[Fifield]

Imo , channeling should be removed enitrely and the mods reworked as curently only lifestrike is worth taking . Instead of channeling let us shoot our secondary weapon with left click .

 

When I saw that melee didn't need a rework, just a buff, that's what I did.  The point for DE is that it's something they could knock this out in a couple of days whereas a rework might get put to the end of their usual six month queue of tasks.

 

That's not to say that a rework wouldn't be better in the long term.  Your suggestion could work well, particularly as secondary weapons are also underused.  How do you propose aiming would work since there will be a delay whilst the pistol is drawn and RMB is used for blocking?

[Fifield]

I like a lot of the ideas in the OP and would like to add to that a little bit:

 

1. Blocking should be made more viable instead of simple, flat damage reduction. Instead, blocking should be like it was before except using "stamina" that is tied to wall latch and aim glide, mechanics that are seldom used so adding useage to that should help. So the length you could block should be limited.

 

Blocking may well need another buff on top of the halved energy costs of channelled blocking.  Currently, rolling seems to provide 100% damage reduction and also seems to seamlessly transfer that reduction into channelled blocking.  Rolling is a fixed distance however so not ideal for positioning.  It would be some sexy UI if pressing the roll key activated a distance bar superimposed on the floor (let go at the distance you want).

 

I'm very much opposed to putting an extra cost on something there's already little point using (wall latch).  Stamina-type systems should encourage parkour not discourage it.

 

2. Combos should give more damage. Right now, most combos are there only to look cool or simply make your attacks faster and further. Tricky combos should be lots of damage multipliers like in certain stances, with other combos giving out effects like armor reduction, bleed, slow, ragdoll, stun, etc. So there should be reasons to use certain combos. With this, equipping melee would be more beneficial than quick slash.

 

The basic spam E combo already boosts damage on every single stance I believe.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Fifield

[Hitexh]

Agree agrree agree.. Melee 3.0 shall release, and lets become a real ninja, instead of Rambo.

[Pirate_Shark]

Everything should be improved and added upon. Nothing should be removed, we love Melee 2.0, and we want more combos for melee 3.0! If the die hard fans of melee 1.0 want to stick with the old and not with the new, let them do their repetitive EEEEEE with their guns. If they don't like melee mode 2.0 they don't have to use it. There are a lot of us that love Melee 2.0 Mode. A lot of us would leave if something so cool was to be removed like Melee 2.0.

[Fifield]

Because for every 1 good idea there are hundreds of terrible ones.

 

Well, this forum is a prime example...

 

However, there are ways around it.  For example, there should be a best ideas list somewhere and pinned to the top of the forums.  That would eliminate a lot of the terrible ones and a lot of the half-decent ones that aren't nearly as good.

But an open forum, particularly one that hides Mastery Rank and bumps threads which demand freebies or when people argue vs bad suggestions... isn't a great way to do this at all.

 

Also, some people are good at coming up with decent ideas whilst others aren't.  So it's more about sorting for the good player-designers than sorting for the ideas.  Once you've found the people, you've got them for months or even years.

 

So how do you find the people?  I'd recruit some eg this guy: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/198866-retune-all-the-frames-819-come-gentle-night/

I'd also have a pinned post in this forum telling players how to apply.  Applicants would have to link to a suggestion they've made in these forums and would be evaluated on that basis.  I'd also want access to the Design Council to borrow some of their members as well as find out why that isn't working.

The team's forum would be a private forum on here.  That way DE can keep an eye on everyone.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Fifield

[Burnthesteak87]

Regarding the Damage buff, it's a matter of good and bad weapons, mastery fodder, always the same problem. The other is the enemy scaling. There's no need to buff generic melee damage.

For what concernes Survivability, it's gone since Stamina left. I think the actual blocking is just a bandaid and I suspect a rework is coming with the Charged Attacks.

What really should be done imho is welding melee with other playstyles or making it more self-sustainable.
- Working around the Melee Combo Counter is the key, I suggested yet to raise its duration and making it interact with other mechanics, like Skills or giving prizes for reaching an high number.
- Example: the MCC should interact with the Skill damage and effects, making them scale accordingly. Let's say, reaching a x2 damage boost with melee attacks would also double the damage/duration/effect from the next skill used, allowing for interesting combo and finishers, also suiting the Ability spam issue.
- Another Example would be allowing Energy or Health globes (or self gain) as prizes for reaching high combo counters, this way going melee would be rewarding and it could sustain itself.
This would also fix the bad design problem Life Strike brings in.

Just some ideas.

[Fifield]

Also, Tenno are all about bringing knives to gun fights and winning. It's sort of their thing. And when you train yourself to be able to stop bullets, and have advanced ! technology to enhance your ability, bringing a knife won't be a problem in the slightest, so why not reflect that in the gameplay?

 

Yep.  Another reason is that players love feeling powerful and you get that more from going toe to toe with a bunch of level 80 Grineer and using skill rather than hiding stationary behind a Snow Globe and shooting things that have no chance of harming you.

 

Also more opportunities to do take downs would be a nice addition to the take re-balancing. Maybe a push function that staggers enemies, making them open for a takedown. It's stupid how only a few frames can do it consistently without wasting a mod slot, and those ones have to pay energy, just to cinematically dispatch some scrub enemy (because bosses don't get staggered in that manner).

 

I'd love this if it was entirely optional.  This style of play favours solo, stealth play rather than the standard 4 overpowered Warframes charging through a map shooting anything that moves.

 

Many have lamented the slow animation of finishers.  I've stated elsewhere we need fast finshers but that if the game AI could work out if we're doing the slow steath thing, the long-winded animations could be used instead.

[Fifield]

Regarding the Damage buff, it's a matter of good and bad weapons, mastery fodder, always the same problem. The other is the enemy scaling. There's no need to buff generic melee damage.

 

There are many top tier weapons eg Dragon Nikana, Dual Ichor, Orthos Prime that are all roughly as good as each other.  But the same mission using only such a weapon vs using solely a top tier gun will take around 50% longer.  That's one reason to buff melee damage.

 

Here's another: melee damage is always higher in games because you have to expose yourself to risk.  Why would you expose yourself to risk if the damage isn't better than ranged?

 

Here's another: shooting things requires almost no skill.  Melee actually requires quite a lot of skill at the higher levels.  That should be rewarded.  It also encourages players to learn a more difficult but more enjoyable part of the game that will make Warframe a lot more interesting for them.

 

There's 3 reasons why melee damage should be significantly buffed.  I'm happy to hear your counterarguments.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Fifield

[Naftal]

There are many top tier weapons eg Dragon Nikana, Dual Ichor, Orthos Prime that are all roughly as good as each other.  But the same mission using only such a weapon vs using solely a top tier gun will take around 50% longer.  That's one reason to buff melee damage.

 

Here's another: melee damage is always higher in games because you have to expose yourself to risk.  Why would you expose yourself to risk if the damage isn't better than ranged?

 

Here's another: shooting things requires almost no skill.  Melee actually requires quite a lot of skill at the higher levels.  That should be rewarded.

 

There's 3 reasons why melee damage should be significantly buffed.  I'm happy to hear your counterarguments.

Using something like Orthos Prime I'll definitely clear missions faster than any gun that isn't aoe...