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Now Is The Time To Change Damage Mods (And Scaling)


(PSN)WiiConquered
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Changing Elemental Mods: The Key to Opening Up Mod Slots

Many people are unhappy with the news of Multishot being nerfed, because they feel they're losing an essential mod without actually improving the game since an elemental mod will probably take its place. While true, there's a fairly simple (from a technical standpoint) solution that will completely change this; remove the damage component of elemental mods and downscale enemy scaling to compensate. There are several ways to do this, but the easiest seems to be the PVP way: just have them convert a percentage of the whole damage to that element. From a mathematical and technical standpoint, this shouldn't be that challenging.

Damage Mods As Auras: Rewarding Progression Without Creating Mandatory Mods

Now, many people are probably wondering "what about Serration? Hornet Strike?" Etc. The problem with these is that they are a big indicator of player progression, and will require more thinking to remove. However, they only take up one mod slot, while the elemental mods by themselves can take up every slot. Simply buff the corrupted damage mods like Heavy Caliber (20% per rank) and keep the normal, Corrupted, and Nightmare (Blaze) damage mods from stacking (again, compensate with scaling changes). Now, you'd have no mandatory mods as even the damage mod would be a choice.

You could even move these mods to an aura slot, allowing weapons to get a big boost in modding points (resulting in a positive reception to the change) while adding yet another slot. This would have another big effect for progression: Auras are instantly accessible, meaning players with high level damage mods could immediately take new or Forma'd weapons to the content they are capable of doing, rather than slogging through low levels or playing tag along with a Mesa. This keeps familiar mods intact with their upside, while removing a major disadvantage of them in the current state.

Headshot Multipliers; RIP Crits

The bane of Warframe is unnecessary RNG. While I wont tackle RNG's adverse effects on everything, one inexcusable problem it has is, with critical stats, weapon damage is tied to dice rolls and not player choices. Instead of critical stats, weapons should get headshot multipliers. Guns like the Soma Prime and Dread should do subpar (for their tier) damage, but back this up with massive potential from headshot damage. Guns like the Grakata would do closer to average damage with less weak shot potential. Melee's headshot stats should be equalized as much as possible (Berserker would be tied to finishers--definitely requiring certain play styles to make the most out of, and this is a good thing). The point is, weapon damage would be tied to player actions, not luck.

Taking RNG Out of Other Mods, and Alt Fire

Thunderbolt is going to be my focus, and a framework for other, similar mods. Currently we have an alt fire function that is being vastly underused. This mod will provide an example for how they could be done better.

Thunderbolt gives a 30% chance for a bow's shot to explode. Instead, it will change 2 rounds per ammo pickup to explosive rounds, with a max of 30% of the total ammo capacity. This would be indicated on the UI. Pressing the alt fire button would change the ammo type to explosive. At this point the player could fire an explosive arrow, that would deal 50% of the bow's damage in a small radial area around it, but without the punch-through. This would make it better suited to open areas than bows normally are, while not being as ideal for narrow corridors. This is perfect; the mod impacts player choice and thought processes without RNG. In addition, there would be a high level of reward for landing a headshot in this scenario, especially with the Dread or Paris Prime (see the last section on headshot multipliers). This could also serve to mirror similar mods (concealed explosives for example) and allow new ones that follow similar processes.

The point is, the die is now cast with the multishot changes. Like coptering, it would be unfortunate to make that change without fixing all the reasons people used it in the first place. And like Parkour 2.0, a change to the modding system can and will turn the minds of many angry people into happy ones if it's done right.

Edited by (PS4)WiiConquered
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I still support the idea of serration and those mods being removed and weapon damage increasing as you level it up, with a level 30 weapon equating to a max rank serration. That removes a mandatory mod and allows a free slot for more customization.

 

As for multishot, it should use up more ammo. That makes sense and is a good trade off. Especially since multishot often more than doubles a weapon's damage. Multishot mods are a bit overpowered if you ask me, and currently a mandatory mod as well. Of course, enemy strength would need to be adjusted again to compensate for the significant decrease in weapon power. Max rank multishot for any weapon should simply read "fires an extra bullet with every shot". Also, bows need their own multishot mod that allows you to visually draw and load multiple arrows at once.

 

Better yet, make max rank multishot only a %(under 100) to fire an extra bullet at max rank. 

Edited by Drazhar14
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I still support the idea of serration and those mods being removed and weapon damage increasing as you level it up, with a level 30 weapon equating to a max rank serration. That removes a mandatory mod and allows a free slot for more customization.

 

As for multishot, it should use up more ammo. That makes sense and is a good trade off. Especially since multishot often more than doubles a weapon's damage. Multishot mods are a bit overpowered if you ask me, and currently a mandatory mod as well. Of course, enemy strength would need to be adjusted again to compensate for the significant decrease in weapon power. Max rank multishot for any weapon should simply read "fires an extra bullet with every shot". Also, bows need their own multishot mod that allows you to visually draw and load multiple arrows at once.

 

Better yet, make max rank multishot only a %(under 100) to fire an extra bullet at max rank.

I hear what you're saying about damage mods, but IMO elementals are a much bigger issue to tackle because they can single handedly take up every slot on a weapon regardless of what happens with pure damage mods. The positive about moving those mods to an Aura slot is you don't have to tear down any progression people already made or worry about reimbursements.

In a new system the new multishot will be a good choice. Even now I'm thinking a lot about which weapons I will or won't use it on, and that tells me it's better now. Agreed on your points there.

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Totally agree with the OP, +1.
I'm totally convinced that the problem lies in the alternative ways of enhancing damage outside of Serration.

Sorry for the repost, but:

It's not an issue easy to fix, the problem with damage is linked to enemy scalingammo consumption. Which are linked themselves to other issues.

The game roots are too much deep into this system, a good balance would need to sacrifice some of these roots, thus raising a crybabies hell on forums.

 

On topic: 

  • For what concernes Serration, since there's an enemy scaling system based on time, I guess mods to raise the damage of weapons are necessary to allow people staying more into endless missions, to resist a little better the pressure given by enemy armor and hp raising.
    Maybe the bonus shouldn't be so much high since the actual numbers are ridicolously high.
  •  There should be a CAP on damage enhanced, and over that cap, there should be downsides on other stats. Similar to how Corrupted mods work: out of Serration, to raise further the damage, some other stat should go down.
  • For what concernes Elemental mods, these mods give yet a boost based on enemy weaknesses, so the percentage damage boost on the mods should cease to exist.
  • For what concernes Multishot, the ammo Downside is awesome, if there would be enough space on the build to invest into Magazine Size. There should alse be alternatives that would offer the choice of having Multishot some advantages, like Thunderbolt on Bows.
  • Crit chance and Crit Damage aren't to be forgotten since these are mods increasing damage too.

The actual system is pretty similar to this yet, but imho there must be a CAP limit to damage enhancing mods, that's when build diversity will become worth as an alternative to max the damage.

Edited by Burnthesteak87
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[*]Crit chance and Crit Damage aren't to be forgotten since these are mods increasing damage too.

I didn't mention critical mods for a couple reasons, one being because I think the crit mods and weapons will need a major rework. One possibility would be moving critical damage mods to the Aura slot I suggested and then adding a pure damage bonus, like a nightmare mod for crit damage and raw damage. In addition, buff crit chances on true crit weapons, then make the critical chance mod give an additive bonus so it isn't necessary for making critical weapons usable.

Another reason is that I don't think it would be as necessary for this to happen at the same time as multishot, as for elemental mods.

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I didn't mention critical mods for a couple reasons, one being because I think the crit mods and weapons will need a major rework. One possibility would be moving critical damage mods to the Aura slot I suggested and then adding a pure damage bonus, like a nightmare mod for crit damage and raw damage. In addition, buff crit chances on true crit weapons, then make the critical chance mod give an additive bonus so it isn't necessary for making critical weapons usable.

Another reason is that I don't think it would be as necessary for this to happen at the same time as multishot, as for elemental mods.

That's the point, actually the "Critical Hit Mechanic" works around RNG just to give more damages.

Where it becomes more useful are "On Crit" procs, like Berserker.

Even so I still consider the "Crit hit mechanic" something stupid, because balancing a proc around a random chance to happen often results into hard to balance and unreliable mechanics.

(It's a matter of fact, it happened yet on different games)

So, what's the point into boosting critical hits? Imho it should just be around as a random small buff on certain situations, building a mechanism around it is a risky gamble.

It's similar to how Status work, but there the damage is sacrified and balanced for additional effects, not a matter of DPS and big damage. That's why Status isn't a problem in this matter: more utility for less damage.

The real problem is people want to see big numbers on the screen. Not a functional refined mechanic.

Just try playing with Options>HUD>Damage/AffinityNumbers> Uncheck.

Crit Mods have to be removed/fixed exactly like the Extra Damage on Elemental and non-Corrupted mods.

Edited by Burnthesteak87
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That's the point, actually the "Critical Hit Mechanic" works around RNG just to give more damages.

Where it becomes more useful are "On Crit" procs, like Berserker.

Even so I still consider the "Crit hit mechanic" something stupid, because balancing a proc around a random chance to happen often results into hard to balance and unreliable mechanics.(It's a matter of fact, it happened yet on different games)

So, what's the point into boosting critical hits? Imho it should just be around as a random small buff on certain situations, building a mechanism around it is a risky gamble.

It's similar to how Status work, but there the damage is sacrified and balanced for additional effects, not a matter of DPS and big damage. That's why Status isn't a problem in this matter: more utility for less damage.

The real problem is people want to see big numbers on the screen. Not a functional refined mechanic.

Just try playing with Options>HUD>Damage/AffinityNumbers> Uncheck.

Crit Mods have to be removed/fixed exactly like the Extra Damage on Elemental and non-Corrupted mods.

That's the point, actually the "Critical Hit Mechanic" works around RNG just to give more damages.

Where it becomes more useful are "On Crit" procs, like Berserker.

Even so I still consider the "Crit hit mechanic" something stupid, because balancing a proc around a random chance to happen often results into hard to balance and unreliable mechanics.(It's a matter of fact, it happened yet on different games)

So, what's the point into boosting critical hits? Imho it should just be around as a random small buff on certain situations, building a mechanism around it is a risky gamble.

It's similar to how Status work, but there the damage is sacrified and balanced for additional effects, not a matter of DPS and big damage. That's why Status isn't a problem in this matter: more utility for less damage.

The real problem is people want to see big numbers on the screen. Not a functional refined mechanic.

Just try playing with Options>HUD>Damage/AffinityNumbers> Uncheck.

Crit Mods have to be removed/fixed exactly like the Extra Damage on Elemental and non-Corrupted mods.

I think the best solution, albeit one I don't know if DE would consider, would be to instead have a headshot multiplier stat that effectively turns some weapons, like the Somas, into being great weak spot weapons but below average otherwise, and/or buff the base damage of the former crit weapons. At that point, combined with the OP, I don't think any mods could be considered mandatory and only one of the Aura mods would be at all required.

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I think the best solution, albeit one I don't know if DE would consider, would be to instead have a headshot multiplier stat that effectively turns some weapons, like the Somas, into being great weak spot weapons but below average otherwise, and/or buff the base damage of the former crit weapons. At that point, combined with the OP, I don't think any mods could be considered mandatory and only one of the Aura mods would be at all required.

+1

That's it. Headshot multipliers, Charged Attack damage, more control, less RNG. That's it!

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Thank you for recodnizing that Serration is one of the only forms of player Prgression in game. The problems I see with that though are that it is too easy to get a max rank serration. The base damage of weapons needs to be efffected by more than a weeks worth of framing on Triton. I have given the Progression Rank suggestion countless times (And I think you have commented on it), and while I know its current itteration may not be the best, i beleive a new rnaking system to determine base damage is the best solution.

 

Crits are kind of part of Warframe. I am having a massive internal struggle over what you say in the OP. It makes ensse, but Critical Chance/Damage are two stats that help differentiate the massive pool of weapons. My suggestion would just to be to give Crits a downside, like make them have reduced effectiveness aginst sheilds.

 

But that Thunderbolt rework though, it is absolutely beautiful.

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Thank you for recodnizing that Serration is one of the only forms of player Prgression in game. The problems I see with that though are that it is too easy to get a max rank serration. The base damage of weapons needs to be efffected by more than a weeks worth of framing on Triton. I have given the Progression Rank suggestion countless times (And I think you have commented on it), and while I know its current itteration may not be the best, i beleive a new rnaking system to determine base damage is the best solution.

Crits are kind of part of Warframe. I am having a massive internal struggle over what you say in the OP. It makes ensse, but Critical Chance/Damage are two stats that help differentiate the massive pool of weapons. My suggestion would just to be to give Crits a downside, like make them have reduced effectiveness aginst sheilds.

But that Thunderbolt rework though, it is absolutely beautiful.

IMO getting maxed Serration is where it should be. It won't happen immediately for newbies, but also isn't a restricting element for too long; there should be a point where getting better weapons is more important than maxing a static, uninteresting mod.

As for Crits, I hear you. I would almost consider it separate; it could be a change made without up heaving the whole system, unlike the rest. That being said, I do agree with BurnTheSteak that it would be better if it depended on player skill than on RNG, and I don't want to overcomplicate by introducing another stat for headshots as well.

Edited by (PS4)WiiConquered
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Thank you for recodnizing that Serration is one of the only forms of player Prgression in game. The problems I see with that though are that it is too easy to get a max rank serration. The base damage of weapons needs to be efffected by more than a weeks worth of framing on Triton. I have given the Progression Rank suggestion countless times (And I think you have commented on it), and while I know its current itteration may not be the best, i beleive a new rnaking system to determine base damage is the best solution.

 

Crits are kind of part of Warframe. I am having a massive internal struggle over what you say in the OP. It makes ensse, but Critical Chance/Damage are two stats that help differentiate the massive pool of weapons. My suggestion would just to be to give Crits a downside, like make them have reduced effectiveness aginst sheilds.

 

But that Thunderbolt rework though, it is absolutely beautiful.

Essentially, what's the point into having a crit weapon? Does it do something special? It just deals damage as every weapon in game, it just needs different mods to deal the same thing and to drive the RNG in your favor. This is different in status weapons.

I'm used to play without the damage numbers, what's the deal in critical hits? Getting satisfied by seeing big numbers on the screen? I found this twisted and unimmersive.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

Since the meta is to reach the max damage, to open up free space for utility mods and different builds the damage must be brought somelsewhere or, alternatively, there must be put an hard cap to damage, exactly as Power Efficency.

Talking about Rifles, Serration and damaging mods, we have on 6 to 8 slots to fill with damage mods:

Serration: +165%

Heavy Caliber: +165%

x4 Elementals: +90% x4

Status mods: +60%

(Eventually basic damage mods, but won't be taken in consideration since numbers scales on the weapon)

We have an AVERAGE minimal increase in damage of 330% in base damage, 360% turned into elemental damage = 690% total, that eventually can go to 710% or higher with basic damage mods.

This can go even higher with Faction Damage Mods and Weaknesses when calculating the damage dealt.

Bringing all this +690% to 720% damage on the single Serration or on an external mechanic would be Imho the right move to solve the problem.

The "Serration aura" for weapons seems to be a really nice solution, also making the forma and re-leveling process less tedious.

The problem is the calculation of damage. In PVP you can equip just 1 mod converting part of the damage, in PVE we have at least 4 mods that would need to do so, the interaction with these is problematic.

In the end, it boils down to the Modding system. Instead than having 8 slots to build totally free it should limit numbers of slots for different edits, some for damage, some for elemental, some for utility, some to fix the single weapon issues.

Edited by Burnthesteak87
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Bringing all this +690% to 720% damage on the single Serration or on an external mechanic would be Imho the right move to solve the problem.The "Serration aura" for weapons seems to be a really nice solution, also making the forma and re-leveling process less tedious.The problem is the calculation of damage. In PVP you can equip just 1 mod converting part of the damage, in PVE we have at least 4 mods that would need to do so, the interaction with these is problematic.In the end, it boils down to the Modding system. Instead than having 8 slots to build totally free it should limit numbers of slots for different edits, some for damage, some for elemental, some for utility, some to fix the single weapon issues.

IMO the additional damage change should only happen on melee weapons and Point Blank, and even then only go to roughly the same levels as Serration. I would make Primed Point Blank give double capacity of the normal one so that it still has a point without being required. Rather than upscale damage, I would make scaling less harsh. I'd use a logistic function that tapers off around current level 40 (and feels like level 60 pre changes) for health/shields/armor while keeping the initial progression curve similar. This would have the added benefit of keeping damage frames from being worthless high level as they would become comparatively more powerful.

For damage conversion, I would do two things: make each mod have a max of 30% conversion, and then cause combined elements to "stack" rather than simply adding to each other. So if I had 30% heat and 30% electric, I'd get 30% radiation. If I had 30% heat and 10% electric, I'd get 20% heat and 10% radiation. Adding toxin to the third slot would give 20% heat, 10% electric, and 30% toxin. The dual stat mods wouldn't stack with the normal ones anymore, and would give a max of 15%.

As long as the damage bonuses are low (like with elemental weaknesses), situational, or isolated (the damage aura) I think it's actually better to have the open system we have now. I'd argue that at this point, there aren't any mandatory mods at all and builds will vary heavily from player to player. With additional mods that work like new Thunderbolt, we could further increase variety and not have to restrict any mods at all.

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Feedback?

Those may not be the perfect solutions but I'd like to see them ingame, and I can't think of anything better.

I also agree with Burnthesteak's posts.

 

The only thing is I can think of: Multishot using ammo is essentially a x2 RoF mod, so I'd give it x2 the recoil and/or make it reduce accuracy as well.

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The only thing is I can think of: Multishot using ammo is essentially a x2 RoF mod, so I'd give it x2 the recoil and/or make it reduce accuracy as well.

I actually disagree. From a DPS standpoint this is true, but from a practical standpoint it has different benefits and drawbacks. It has more "wasted" damage because it will often overkill, whereas a fire rate mod allows players to use exactly as many rounds as possible. It also isn't able to "fill in" damage on high RoF weapons like fire rate, so it's not as helpful for inaccurate shooters. However, the instantaneous damage application means that when overkill doesn't happen it will be more helpful, as the enemy will die one round faster. On fast ROF weapons this won't often be helpful, but for slow ROF weapons, especially bows, snipers, and >10 rps rifles, this could make a big difference. It also helps high recoil weapons more as it works like a burst weapon--bringing out multiple rounds with a single application of recoil.

TL;DR: Fire rate vs multishot is more of a choice than it may immediately appear.

Edited by (PS4)WiiConquered
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Some mandatory mods are a good thing. They allow for progression and prevent Modframe:  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/523934-modframe-and-why-ordinary-nerfs-to-mandatory-mods-wont-increase-mod-variety/

 

If elemental mods fit (newly-introduced) utility slots, your idea would be good for crit rifles -- which have 7 mandatory mods choices.  All other weapons have 6 or fewer.

 

Crits are a good thing, in this game at least.  They allow weapon diversity and levelling weapons is an optional lategame element some players like.

 

Mods changing UI function is a programming nightmare, particularly where they involve new buttons/keys to press.

Overall feedback:  think about what you're really trying to achieve.  Be specific.  Then, regarding your solution, ask "who's going to be hurt by then?" and "why might DE object to it?"

Edited by Fifield
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"Damage Mods As Auras: Rewarding Progression Without Creating Mandatory Mods"

 

 

Some mods always be mandatory. always. Like items in any other MMO game. It's depend from item for you want to use.

If weapon have low CR, you don't install CR mod becasue will be useless. For frame you need rise suvivability chance, so Reddirection, Vitality, Quick Thinking always be madatory. Something always is mandatory, some items are powerfull, some mods too, and players try get this stuff, this is one of thei purpose in MMORPG game. 

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My personal ideal:

 

 

I think Serration as a idea is fine and needed in any good MMO. IN any MMO you have a damage up plain and simple. To keep its idea and keep the gameplay I think DE wants I would propose 3 changes:
 

 

Increase its polarity cost to 20-25 at max rank, have it only effect base damage, and have it not effect elements in any way shape or form.

 

This increases risk reward where you COULD put this mod on your build but your basically wasting 2 mod slots unless your a vet and have that gun formaed out the butt.

 

 

I personally like Multishots change because it gives it a risk reward and makes sense logically and mechanically.

 

I think Heavy Cal doesn't need changed, but the accuracy system does because some guns are OP with it some are heavily effected by it.

 

 

Elements: Simply just need to reduce or get rid of their damage increase inchange for them increasing status chance. 

 

 

Of-course enemy Armor and heath scaling need to be toned down but this would by my personal way to balance out the games damage system.

 

 

P.S: I Like OP's idea.

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"Damage Mods As Auras: Rewarding Progression Without Creating Mandatory Mods"

 

 

Some mods always be mandatory. always. Like items in any other MMO game. It's depend from item for you want to use.

If weapon have low CR, you don't install CR mod becasue will be useless. For frame you need rise suvivability chance, so Reddirection, Vitality, Quick Thinking always be madatory. Something always is mandatory, some items are powerfull, some mods too, and players try get this stuff, this is one of thei purpose in MMORPG game. 

Fine if you believe this, but in this system which mods become mandatory? The only one I'm worried about is punch through, and if necessary all weapons could get some innately. On melee, fury, but I'd make a +damage +attack speed mod that's nightmare, offering bonuses to both but with less overall damage.

I'm not sure what CR stands for, but if you mean Crits, those are gone.

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