U 17.3: Hek (Shotgun) Undocumented Nerf.

[Monolake]

Found another undocumented nerf.

Same target, same build, ~twice worse performance.

Build used in both cases (it was screencapped right after the first test and linked in the video description)  http://i.imgur.com/xhsdBft.jpg

 

Now:

 

 

 

Before:

 

 

Any comments from DE?

Edited September 11, 2015 by Monolake

[DrCrawford]

surprise surprise eh?

[P0TAT0CANN0N]

Why am I not surprised?

[KirukaChan]

I want my Formas back.

[nickelshark]

It could be another PVP-PVE mix up. And I really hope that is the case.

[taiiat]

likely it's crossover from PvP. Hek wasn't changed deliberately.

also, would be preferable to not use Corrosive in testing scenarios, as Enemies will not have even Armor Amounts.

i don't think Corrosive Status is causing the difference, i'm pretty sure it isn't, but the point is it adds a variable that you can't control.

[Monolake]

likely it's crossover from PvP. Hek wasn't changed deliberately.

also, would be preferable to not use Corrosive in testing scenarios, as Enemies will not have even Armor Amounts.

i don't think Corrosive Status is causing the difference, i'm pretty sure it isn't, but the point is it adds a variable that you can't control.

Looks to me like it shoots less pelletes  now - less procs and less damage too

to achieve same TTK now I have to use primed PB and overall 2+ times more damage stats

 

I didn't test with non-corrosive before, so I couldn't compare.

[Brimir]

How to make the Vay Hek look better:

 

Nerf the original Hek!

 

Genius.

[stoybot]

Check your settings again. I actually ran lots of tests on the regular Hek for my U17 shotgun comparison thread. Just took the same build to the Simulacrum and it took, on average, the same number of body-shots to kill a Corrupted Heavy Gunner. My Hek is just as effective now so I'm not seeing any stealth nerf here...

[Monolake]

Check your settings again. I actually ran lots of tests on the regular Hek for my U17 shotgun comparison thread. Just took the same build to the Simulacrum and it took, on average, the same number of body-shots to kill a Corrupted Heavy Gunner. My Hek is just as effective now so I'm not seeing any stealth nerf here...

Checked 10 times as I couldn't believe it.

Checked in current 17.3.1  too.

I didn't even have ranked PrimedPB back then, now I have to use it to get anywhere near the same results as I had with rank 4 PB no-forma build

Edited September 5, 2015 by Monolake

[-N7-Leonhart]

Since the numbers are the same, the damage should still be the same. What could have changed is maybe some hidden multiplier from Vauban's abilities (that definitely happens with skills like Vortex).

[Monolake]

Since the numbers are the same, the damage should still be the same. What could have changed is maybe some hidden multiplier from Vauban's abilities (that definitely happens with skills like Vortex).

I checked some other shotguns to make sure - they are the same. It's Hek specific.

Bastille doesn't doesn't give any bonus to guns only to melee.

[-N7-Leonhart]

I checked some other shotguns to make sure - they are the same. It's Hek specific.

Bastille doesn't doesn't give any bonus to guns only to melee.

 

But its damage numbers are the same. So, check how correct are those, simple. Split the damage in pellets and calculate for specific enemies. Tip: take an unit with a single type of health, like an Ancient.

Edited September 5, 2015 by -BM-StormVanguard

[ToastyCosty]

i hope this is a unintended nerf, buffing shotguns and then stealth nerfing them again? kind of nonsense

[Jeetza]

God, i'm right about done with DE right now. This better be a bug.

[[DE]Momaw]

Test 1 - Untyped damage

 

 

Basic build.

 

Using a Nullifier as an untyped damage test target

 

Weapon damage = 11,430.6

 

389 damage * 29 pellets = 11281

389 damage * 30 pellets = 11670

 

Hek has fractional pellet count, so this is exactly what we should see. Arsenal displaying pellet damage times 29.38  (Hek base 7 pellets,  plus 120% hell chamber, plus 200% scattered justice = 7 * 4.2 = 29.4.  Slight errors can be attributed to rounding in display. 

 

Assessment:  Working as intended.

 

Test 2 - level 100 corrupted heavy gunner

Observed 28 damage per pellet.


I know from previous testing that L100 heavy gunner has an armor rating of 7200, which is a damage multiplier of 300/(300+7200) = 0.04.   Ferrite armor's damage modifiers are -15% versus slash and +50% versus puncture.

Slash damage is challenged by armorRating*1.15 (AR 8580 = damage x0.035), leaving 1428 * 0.035 * 0.85 = 42.483
Puncture damage is challenged by armorRating*0.5 (AR 3600 = damage x0.083), leaving 4,643.7 * 0.083 * 1.5 = 578.141
Impact unmodified: 1071.6 * 0.04 = 42.864
Heat unmodified: 4286.5 * 0.04 = 171.46
Total expected damage: 834.948, divided by 29.4 pellets = 28.399

The actual damage calculation is slightly more complicated because the target also has Cloned Flesh which has a resistance to Impact, but honestly I have reached the limit of what I know about the damage model. The calculated 28.399 damage per pellet as an armor-only target is close enough to the observed 28+/-0.5 to call this working as intended.  Certainly not a factor of 2 off, as OP suggests.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Momaw

[stoybot]

Thanks for putting numbers to my crude observation Momaw!

[Monolake]

Test 1 - Untyped damage

 

 

Basic build.

 

 

Using a Nullifier as an untyped damage test target

....

 

Weapon damage = 11,430.6

 

389 damage * 29 pellets = 11281

389 damage * 30 pellets = 11670

 

Hek has fractional pellet count, so this is exactly what we should see. Arsenal displaying pellet damage times 29.38  (Hek base 7 pellets,  plus 120% hell chamber, plus 200% scattered justice = 7 * 4.2 = 29.4.  Slight errors can be attributed to rounding in display. 

 

Assessment:  Working as intended.

 

Test 2 - level 100 corrupted heavy gunner

Observed 28 damage per pellet.

I know from previous testing that L100 heavy gunner has an armor rating of 7200, which is a damage multiplier of 300/(300+7200) = 0.04.   Ferrite armor's damage modifiers are -15% versus slash and +50% versus puncture.

Slash damage is challenged by armorRating*1.15 (AR 8580 = damage x0.035), leaving 1428 * 0.035 * 0.85 = 42.483

Puncture damage is challenged by armorRating*0.5 (AR 3600 = damage x0.083), leaving 4,643.7 * 0.083 * 1.5 = 578.141

Impact unmodified: 1071.6 * 0.04 = 42.864

Heat unmodified: 4286.5 * 0.04 = 171.46

Total expected damage: 834.948, divided by 29.4 pellets = 28.399

The actual damage calculation is slightly more complicated because the target also has Cloned Flesh which has a resistance to Impact, but honestly I have reached the limit of what I know about the damage model. The calculated 28.399 damage per pellet as an armor-only target is close enough to the observed 28+/-0.5 to call this working as intended.  Certainly not a factor of 2 off, as OP suggests.

If the damage and pellets number are there. then it means the procs alone got reduced (despite UI claiming 100% with 4 status mod) thus it works much worse vs armor now.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Monolake

[3thereal]

I'm liking the music in your video, that is all.

[shut]

If the damage and pellets number are there. then it means the procs alone got reduced (despite UI claiming 100% with 4 status mod) thus it works much worse vs armor now.

 

I think it might have been a change to proc priority. Maybe physical procs have even more priority than elemental procs now, so you aren't stacking Corrosive as easily as you were pre-17.3?

 

I have literally zero evidence to back this up, but something of the sort could be the cause. 

[P0TAT0CANN0N]

[[DE]Momaw]

I think it might have been a change to proc priority. Maybe physical procs have even more priority than elemental procs now, so you aren't stacking Corrosive as easily as you were pre-17.3?

 

I have literally zero evidence to back this up, but something of the sort could be the cause. 

 

Even if true, this doesn't sound like anything that is conceivably Hek-specific.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Momaw

[shut]

Even if true, this doesn't sound like anything that is conceivably Hek-specific.

 

No, I know, but it might explain what's going on in the videos since neither example shows the Hek doing damage in chunks until corrosive procs start showing up.

[Monolake]

I think it might have been a change to proc priority. Maybe physical procs have even more priority than elemental procs now, so you aren't stacking Corrosive as easily as you were pre-17.3?

 

I have literally zero evidence to back this up, but something of the sort could be the cause. 

 

Other shotguns are still the same ei BoarP, Tigris, Khom, StrunW  are the ones I have tested before and in the current patch. StrunW still removes all armor in ~5 shots. 

 

DE changed something with Hek only.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Monolake

[shut]

Other shotguns are still the same ei BoarP, Tigris, Khom, StrunW  are the ones I have tested before and in the current patch. StrunW still removes all armor in ~5 shots. 

 

DE changed something with Hek only.

 

Wow, that's lame as hell.

Did you make a thread about it in PC Bugs?