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What Should Be The Key Aims Of De's Mod, Damage, Difficulty And Scaling Rework?


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So most people have seen this by now but it looks like DE is reworking almost everything now: https://twitter.com/GooseDE/status/641274057464389632

 

This is good.  And it seems they listed to our reasoned arguments why their proposed multishot nerf won't increase mod variability: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/523934-modframe-and-why-ordinary-nerfs-to-mandatory-mods-wont-increase-mod-variety/

 

So let's help them make a list of key aims for the rework.  In no particular order:

 

1. Challenge

 

A very common complaint amongst people who've played longer than ~9 months is that the game is far too easy and thus boring.

 

Ideally, all players should be able to choose difficulty levels from 'it takes 3s to die' to 'nearly impossible' with a variety of mission types.  This is very easy to do with the current scaling system which is simply 1.5 numbers in a table.

We'd probably all love a more Killing Floor-esque scaling system and DE should be working on that.

 

Existing content should not be made impossible for low skill players.   Missions that are 'nearly impossible' for them will be the same ones that high skill players do as a reasonable challenge, so they are already catered for there.

For the best players in the game, 'nearly impossible' level difficulty should involve perfectly-modded maximum forma'd OP gear, and probably half a dozen attempts.  It should be optional a la nightmare mode or via some kind of key on ordinary planets.

 

Difficulty should not be at a random level a la nightmare.  It should generally bring some kind of rewards that are genuinely valuable to high level players (eg cores, credits, formas).  The absolute highest difficulties could award sigils.

 

2. Scaling

 

When we have level 150 enemies early in a mission, scaling changes completely.  Most players would like slower scaling.  They'd also like Corrosive Projection to be less mandatory.

Initial scaling can be faster -- it takes everyone 5-10 minutes to get in the groove.

 

Different missions cater to different lengths.  We have:

 

a) Simple goal missions eg exterminate/capture.  These should stay short in order to not get boring.  # of enemies should scale to number of players.

b) Multiple goal and variable missions eg Sabotage and Survival (which evolves from ez every man for themselves, to having to concentrate & revive players to having to camp somewhere).

 

These latter missions should generally last 20-40 mins  (but we also want long-! non-compulsory missions occasionally).  It is better to keep the same group (and get to make friends) for several diverse missions than have long missions.

 

3. Mod variability but not Modframe

 

With a Boltor or Soma Prime, we'd be better off with faster reload speed or less recoil than damage in most missions (up to Ceres perhaps).  But we don't bother.  OK some people think 4 elemental mods do 360% dmg (they don't) but even people who understand Damage 2.0 don't bother.  It's not worth fiddling with mods between most missions.  Being forced to do that is what I call ModFrame.

 

What then do we want from mod variability?

There are 3 or 4 Extra Credits (always recommended) videos on player choice aka agency:

 

 

Mostly, we want the feeling of choice -- it doesn't have to be real choice  That's why most of us like the different damage types, even though we have to change damage types for high end missions.

What's better than this forced agency is genuine choice between different types of damage mods eg fire rate vs small damage buffs. And better than that is true customisation (mag size/damage tradeoff, lifesteal etc). Weapon unique mods which are optional and add customisation (eg stagger, charged shot instead of aim down sight) rather than straight up buffs to fix imabalance would be great.

 

But there's a limit to how much messing around with the mod screen we want to do before every mission.  Personally, I love the customisation but I dislike mod hunting -- and yet there's nothing much wrong with the UI.

 

Pre-built configurations help a lot.  We need 5 at least and nameable.  Partial configurations would be even better.  See: 

 

That weapons start at ~3% damage causes two problems:
a) They are fairly useless until level 20 or so.

b) To make them any use at all, you have to keep re-modding them.

 

Weapons should keep some scaling as you level them, but the scaling should go from half or two-thirds damage to full.  Rather than be implemented via increasing capacity, the capacity should always be max, and the gun's initial damage increases.

This will encourage use of new weapons to level them.

 

I want this post to reflect the best aims for DE and I will include better aims if players make (and, if necesssary, justify) them.

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Correlate enemy Diffuculty and player Power through Progression. (Shameless self advertisement)

 

Enemy Shields need a buff, Armor should NOT scale (only their health should, if two variables effecting health scale independently that leads to exponential effective health growth, and that is bad).

 

Enemies should gain "traits" as they grow in level along with their increased damage and hp that make them more difficult to kill/more powerful for reasons that can be accounted for by player skill.

 

A gun modded for the maximum amount of damage should only do 200% more damage, and that would be with severe after effects like reduced accuracy, more recoil, worse ammo efficiency, etcetera. The general modded gun would only probably do 75%-125% more damage than base.

Edited by DrBorris
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Correlate enemy Diffuculty and player Power through Progression. (Shameless self advertisement)

 

Enemy Shields need a buff, Armor should NOT scale (only their health should, if two variables effecting health scale independently that leads to exponential effective health growth, and that is bad).

 

Enemies should gain "traits" as they grow in level along with their increased damage and hp that make them more difficult to kill/more powerful for reasons that can be accounted for by player skill.

 

A gun modded for the maximum amount of damage should only do 200% more damage, and that would be with severe after effects like reduced accuracy, more recoil, worse ammo efficiency, etcetera. The general modded gun would only probably do 75%-125% more damage than base.

 

I made a thread earlier about the Grineer's intelligence, and came up with things they should be able to do. (Like Elite Lancers being able to DODGE attacks. Why are they called "Elite" if they can only do more damage? Any lower ranking grineer could pratically pick up the same gun and be an "Elite". I was going to work on the Corpus, but I've gone a little blank on them. Perhaps they'd attempt more tech ways to dodge our attacks, like phasing or dropping very small bubble shields? Dunno.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/517293-unintelligent-intelligence-but-an-intelligent-change/

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In response to corrosive projection being less mandatory.
How about if certain mods like CP had diminishing returns for each additional player? This might help narrow the gap between the solo player v groups, and encourages groups to bring a wider variety of mod effects. Though this should probably be done in conjunction with changes to enemy armor. Part of me likes what Dr Borris suggested (flat/fixed armor values on troop type), but another part acknowledges that the strong scaling 'encourages' teams to get out of dodge in endless game types (excluding the 3-4 CP trend). I find it interesting comparing the expectations of endless vs non-endless missions and how strong enemies should be.


As an aside, I think that any hits to balance (nerf or buff) are intended to give the devs more control over shaping the player experience. Anything they do is an attempt to 'buff fun' in the long run. Personally I'm hoping that shifts with mods will be a part of carefully pulling some importance away from choices made in menus (modding, stats, efficiency) into choices made in gameplay (interaction w/ enemies and the environment).

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Except that CP already has diminishing returns because 30% deducted from 70% s not the same as 30% deducted from 100%,if i understand how it is applied correctly.

And guess what.If you can't kill stuff with cp,then people with use Energy Siphon and EV Trinity to fuel their disables,rather than actively kill stuff.

There will always be a best choice.But ripping off players off their time and energy investment to ''freshen up gameplay'' is not the right way to do it.

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Armor scaling has a single, codified problem: It scales differently than shields, meaning it gives more effective hitpoints than an extra amount of shields does.

The way to fix this is to quite simply change the armor scaling rate to the same armor scaling rate as shields. That's literally it. The formulas for how each one of them work is up on the wiki. All DE has to do is control C control V some numbers and they'll suddenly have made the game maybe a little easier, but certainly a lot fairer.

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New scaling is necessary. Preferably one with capped enemy damage and armour. Once this two values don't scale infinitely our own power can be looked at. Right now op CC and weapons with tens of thousand dps is neccessary if we want to go longer. But it's mainly because of us getting (almost) one shot by everyone once they reach 100 lvl.

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Enemy Shields need a buff, Armor should NOT scale (only their health should, if two variables effecting health scale independently that leads to exponential effective health growth, and that is bad).

 

To put it another way, armoured EHP scales ~10x faster than shielded EHP.

But this is only true if you don't have 4x Corrosive Projection.  All such discussion revolves around the future of CP.

 

Arguments about CP are that it's more viable than any other aura apart from Energy Syphon.  Auras are already one of the few mods we are messing with between most missions.

In the Void, there's something to be said for scaling shields much faster and armour much slower.  This would force us to bring 2x Shield Disruption, 2x CP in long endless missions. But we don't know what DE is doing with the Void, except that they're probably destroying it, moving the tileset elsewhere and it won't be the only place to drop Prime parts any more.

 

Enemies should gain "traits" as they grow in level along with their increased damage and hp that make them more difficult to kill/more powerful for reasons that can be accounted for by player skill.

 

Yes, I agree.  But how would players know the enemy has a new ability ahead of time?

 

A gun modded for the maximum amount of damage should only do 200% more damage, and that would be with severe after effects like reduced accuracy, more recoil, worse ammo efficiency, etcetera. The general modded gun would only probably do 75%-125% more damage than base.

 

Why so little?  This would make weapon mods much weaker than frame mods.

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To put it another way, armoured EHP scales ~10x faster than shielded EHP.

But this is only true if you don't have 4x Corrosive Projection.  All such discussion revolves around the future of CP.

 

Arguments about CP are that it's more viable than any other aura apart from Energy Syphon.  Auras are already one of the few mods we are messing with between most missions.

In the Void, there's something to be said for scaling shields much faster and armour much slower.  This would force us to bring 2x Shield Disruption, 2x CP in long endless missions. But we don't know what DE is doing with the Void, except that they're probably destroying it, moving the tileset elsewhere and it won't be the only place to drop Prime parts any more.

 

 

Yes, I agree.  But how would players know the enemy has a new ability ahead of time?

 

 

Why so little?  This would make weapon mods much weaker than frame mods.

Are they not already? I mean in raids,which is currenty the higest level content available,you don't even use your weapon most of the time.

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*shakes head*

 

I think the suggestions here are good natured, but have bad long term effects to be desired.

 

The best kind of change to be implemented, is the kind that LASTS. The changes have to be welcoming, yet at the same time not letting veterans feel like they've been gutted of their time and effort. We cannot ignore what Mods and Forma had done to ourselves. What we need are a set of new systems meant for a different kind of synergy.

 

My proposal is that all Warframes should have their combat and defense stats. If the enemies grow in their potency because of their level numbers, why can't Tenno? Instead of the same stupid arithmatics based mechanics forcing us to out-math the enemies in order to triumph against them, all Tenno should have the same growth as their enemies. This can FINALLY pave way for mods to be scaled down since Warframe levels would determine the firepower of weapons, instead of just mods.

 

For Warframes, there should be stat mods like increase physical damage against enemies or add shield strength and regeneration, which work alongside their own growing stats. Forma should not be about resetting things to level zero and installing new polarities. Instead, it should be about tweaking, like shifting weapon and Warframe inclinations. Forma can be Tenno's new corrupted mods, trading a disadvantage for an added advantage.

 

As things stand, this game is currently Grindframe, Modframe and Bashframe. Because whatever this game is, we're not feeling like at war that's in Warframe.

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You just didn't read mine.

 

No, he means you didn't mention any "bad long-term effects." 

 

Your suggestions amount to:

 

Add stat-scaling to warframes and weapons between ranks 0 and 30.

Tone down the amount of benefit you get from mods.

Turn Forma into a second type of mod(?)

 

OP's suggestions were:

 

Add customized difficulty.

Make enemy scaling fair.

Improve the value of mission rewards.

Streamline the modding process.

 

There's nothing incompatible between the two.

 

@ OP

 

I think you're a little overly concerned that purely-optional mods like Adhesive Blast, etc. will make people spend an inordinate amount of time customizing their weapons instead of using them. I don't think that would be the case; As with most forms of customization, most players will find a setup they like and then stick with that. Sure, that can mean some extended sessions of tweaking, especially when we get our hands on a new mod, but things will eventually settle back into equilibrium. 

 

At the same time, players who WANT to spend time thinking up new combinations and playstyles will have the freedom to do so. Currently the most creative I can really get is modding a weapon for max fire-rate (discounting builds that straight-up don't work, like crit builds or status builds on ill-suited weapons.) 

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I think you're a little overly concerned that purely-optional mods like Adhesive Blast, etc. will make people spend an inordinate amount of time customizing their weapons instead of using them. I don't think that would be the case; As with most forms of customization, most players will find a setup they like and then stick with that. Sure, that can mean some extended sessions of tweaking, especially when we get our hands on a new mod, but things will eventually settle back into equilibrium. 

 

At the same time, players who WANT to spend time thinking up new combinations and playstyles will have the freedom to do so. Currently the most creative I can really get is modding a weapon for max fire-rate (discounting builds that straight-up don't work, like crit builds or status builds on ill-suited weapons.) 

 

I've tried to make the distinction between forced remodding and optional remodding.

I'm in favour of being able to spend time thinking up new and interesting builds, I'm against being forced to merely remod sans creativity between every mission.

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This would be an encellent opportunity for DE to decide or define what 'endgame' actually is in Warframe. Is it raiding? Is it something that takes 40 or more minites in a high level endless mission? Is it something else entirely?

Until we have a clearly defined 'endgame', I'm afraid all the balancing in the world won't really matter.

Edited by (PS4)PeetSquared
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I've tried to make the distinction between forced remodding and optional remodding.

I'm in favour of being able to spend time thinking up new and interesting builds, I'm against being forced to merely remod sans creativity between every mission.

 

In that case, why not go a little further and say that weapon/Warframe viability ought to be divorced from mods entirely? Rework elements and damage types so that they are valued for what they DO, not which enemies they are effective against. Fighting the Grineer is barely distinguishable from fighting the Corpus is barely distinguishable from fighting the Infested. Sure, they look different, have different attacks, and different music... but do we ever really do anything but point and click or mash E? Not really. 

 

Whether we're toting Radiation/Viral or Magnetic/Toxin gameplay is roughly the same. I would rather damage types be valued for their auxiliary effects (slight weaknesses and resistances are okay for flavor, but they shouldn't have a hugely-pronounced effect on player choice) than reduced to ambiguous multipliers. 

 

Then build type is 99% up to player preference, and they can customize or refuse to customize at their leisure; no more arbitrary switching between loadout A, B, or C depending on which mission you're running. 

 

Instead of making us take different types of bullets, make us attack enemies in different ways: find weak points in Grineer armor and disassemble heavies. Increase the importance of Shield Ospreys to the Corpus and prevent us from simply ignoring shields. Emphasize CC against Infested. Make fighting the factions distinguishable. 

 

This would be an encellent opportunity for DE to decide or define what 'endgame' actually is in Warframe. Is it raiding? Is it something that takes 40 or more minites in a high level endless mission? Is it something else entirely?

Until we have a clearly defined 'endgame', I'm afraid all the balancing in the world won't really matter.

 

Balance is not dependent on end-game content. It would be perfectly fine for DE to balance around standard star-chart content, and then design an end-game that fits into that. DE has already made multiple different statements of what the upper limit ought to be (Level 40 or so being the most recent one I remember)... they just need to stick to their guns on that matter. 

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In that case, why not go a little further and say that weapon/Warframe viability ought to be divorced from mods entirely? Rework elements and damage types so that they are valued for what they DO, not which enemies they are effective against. Fighting the Grineer is barely distinguishable from fighting the Corpus is barely distinguishable from fighting the Infested. Sure, they look different, have different attacks, and different music... but do we ever really do anything but point and click or mash E? Not really. 

 

Most don't even use melee because it's so weak. But pressing '4' is quite popular. LOL

However isn't this partly because the game is so easy?  If enemies didn't die in 2 bullets (3 if you have the wrong damage type) then we would be forced to vary our tactics.  And the game would be much better for it.

 

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Enemies with random assortment of traits, like elites in Diablo. Enemy scale in more traits than just hp and damage. Examples : Weapons they can use ( Imagine a Sniper Crewman wielding an Opticor, or a Bombard eximus with a Tonkor).  Speed (butchers that run insanely fast), random drop-pods, or teleports of enemies out of nowhere.

 

Weapons get completely rebalanced. Most op primes get a severe nerf. All Prime weapons are at max 25% better than their standard counterparts, get 2-3 free polarities as their main advantage.  Automatic rifles get nerfed across the board,  with increases to recoil.  Someone holding down left click should never out-damage someone firing strategically . 70% of weapons get some mastery rank requirement attached to them. F*uck the "grandfather clause". If you own the weapon but don't have the mastery requirement, you do reduced damage till you reach it.  

Status chance gets buffed across the board, and some effects get reworked. Gas is useless, Impact damage is useless.   

 

Bring back charge attacks for melee weapons, but only with a stance mod. Let people use some stance combos without having melee equipped. 

 

Mandatory damage mods are gone, straight up gone. Multishot and Seration become legendary cores.  Weapons get damage with levels. More damage mods get introduced with negative penalties, like lower total ammo (bigger bullets, less of them),  bonus damage only while you burst fire, bonus damage on headshots, but lower damage on body shots, bonus damage on the LAST few bullets on the magazine , bonus damage versus enemies that are cc'd, bonus damage while airborne, bonus damage, but shots drain your energy, or your shields, or your hp. Hell, I could go on forever.     If it has + bonus damage on it, it better be a nightmare mod. 

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What DE needs to do is stat crunch damage and health so that we don't go from 10s on Mercury to 1000's by Ceres.  In fact, if it were up to me, I'd nix mods like serration and hornet strike altogether.  Not even built into the weapons, just gone.  Enemy scaling can be reworked to not necessitate their presence on 90% of all weapons just to make it through the star chart.  Elemental mods are conversionary of existing damage, instead of adding a flat percentage of extra damage.

 

Enemy levels will be more impactful, but fewer in number.  A level 2 enemy would be 3x what a level 1 enemy is.  A level 3 enemy maybe 5x a level 1.  A level 5 enemy 12x, etc.  Most weapons would be balanced around level 2-3 enemies.  Level 5's and up would be the bleeding edge content on the star chart.  Enemy levels can mix within a mission.  Most enemies could be level 2-3, but then on occasion players might come across a squad set at level 5 fortifying a tile.   Enemy unit types could still tie into levels.  Levels 1-2 are lancers.  3-4 are elite lancers.  5+ hellions.

 

Beyond that, eximus that do more than have some aura.  Think Diablo III's elite units.

 

Armor as a mechanic would be completely revisited.  Right now it's just a number that acts as a health multiplier.  Elemental resistances and vulnerabilities are more interesting forms of damage mitigation as they're not blanket mechanics, but can potentially open up varying challenges to players.  EI, not every darn Grineer needs to be an armor schmuck that requires either radiation or corrosive to deal bonus damage.  A few shield grineer (under properly rebalanced damage/health systems) could throw a wrench into building either radiation or corrosive.

Edited by Littleman88
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Ah, I see I haven't clarified my own standing concerning long term effects. I'll adress that now.

 

First, I'll not say that the suggestions proposed by Mr Fi are bad. But I will say that in the long term, there will be unfavorable consequences. You know what Damage 2.0 brought us? Well intentioned changes, but having bad repercussions.

 

1) I'll skip Challenge because the entire 1st proposal is inherently awesome. There should be a choice of difficulty for -all- missions, instead of say, Mercury - Mars = easy and Ceres - Derelict = hard. The 2nd proposal however has holes in the construction. Scaling itself is a very sketchy mechanic. While it is desirable that the increase / influx of enemy firepower & defense / health points should be less severe, it is preferable for Warframe to step out of the numbers game that is Damage 2.0.

 

The reason why I say this is because it isn't the enemies that are too tough, but because they were designed to make people waste their time farming Fusion Cores and rank up their mods. It's currently the mandatory way of surpassing the enemies' health values and attack powers. You change the numbers, it's still all about the numbers in the end. A lot of players had been clamouring for Warframe to be more skill based instead of being about arithmatics. No enemies should be able to tank more than a full magazine of rifle bullets just because of 'LOL WRONG DAMAGE TYPE'

 

2) Part 2 of the Scaling suggestion is appealing at some parts, less so in others. Making missions short will not make them any less repetitive. Missions become repetitive because of the amount of times players have to play them. The problem with Exterminate missions currently, is that the required enemy killcounts get too high for solo plays and too low for squad plays. The problem with Capture missions is that the targets have too much health and shields with special powers and can get into a panic room which eventually fails the missions. They don't need as much level / mob tweak as the FIXES they deserve all along.

 

But if I'm allowed to only list Exterminate and Capture as examples, I have some humble counter proposals. Exterminate could be context sensitive, like the flow of the mission changes depending on whether or not you are unnoticed. Broken stealth mechanics aside, this could be a good change of pace. If you are stealthy, you will end up killing less harder targets. If you do this while alarms are blazing, you will end up killing harder targets as they spawn more while the required targets are increased in number.

 

For Capture missions, it's illogical Capture targets have Eximus abilities and a large health pool. And, let's not forget HOW the hell can they notice us when approaching them from behind. They start running REGARDLESS of alert status, fighting status and whether or not they saw us. If we change those negative factors, and add a special 'stealth capture' animation in place of 'stealth attack', Capture missions would be a lot more desirable.

 

(Lest I forget, Excavation missions' excavators do NOT scale at all. This makes them too easy to be destroyed at harder stages)

 

3) The whole mod thing. Let me repeat what was said:

 

 

 

3. Mod variability but not Modframe

 

With a Boltor or Soma Prime, we'd be better off with faster reload speed or less recoil than damage in most missions (up to Ceres perhaps).  But we don't bother.  OK some people think 4 elemental mods do 360% dmg (they don't) but even people who understand Damage 2.0 don't bother.  It's not worth fiddling with mods between most missions.  Being forced to do that is what I call ModFrame.

 

What then do we want from mod variability?

 

Mostly, we want the feeling of choice -- it doesn't have to be real choice  That's why most of us like the different damage types, even though we have to change damage types for high end missions.

What's better than this forced agency is genuine choice between different types of damage mods eg fire rate vs small damage buffs. And better than that is true customisation (mag size/damage tradeoff, lifesteal etc). Weapon unique mods which are optional and add customisation (eg stagger, charged shot instead of aim down sight) rather than straight up buffs to fix imabalance would be great.

 

But there's a limit to how much messing around with the mod screen we want to do before every mission.  Personally, I love the customisation but I dislike mod hunting -- and yet there's nothing much wrong with the UI.

 

Pre-built configurations help a lot.  We need 5 at least and nameable.  Partial configurations would be even better.  See: 

 

That weapons start at ~3% damage causes two problems:
a) They are fairly useless until level 20 or so.

b) To make them any use at all, you have to keep re-modding them.

 

Weapons should keep some scaling as you level them, but the scaling should go from half or two-thirds damage to full.  Rather than be implemented via increasing capacity, the capacity should always be max, and the gun's initial damage increases.

This will encourage use of new weapons to level them.

 

If we really want to take a GOOD look at the mods in this game, we have to check their purpose and how they go hand in hand with the problematic aspects of Damage 2.0. Basically, Mr Fi raised a good point that can be summed up in this context: Mods that become 'required' to overcome enemies in the game become mandatory, and mandatory mods in their existence and entirety, make this game Modframe because there's no choice but Mods. The whole thing about feeling of choice is mutual. I'd like there to be choices and freedom to choose between weapons, but there are core problems that are in the way.

 

First of all, what limits the freedom between weapons is the D*** WEAPON SLOT LIMIT in the inventory. Second is once again the viability of weapons in the face of Damage 2.0. The main problem with the most popular Serration (Rank 10) is that it's a mod that has all the benefits with no consequences, whereas Heavy Caliber felt like the more meaningful choice since it realistically portrays the increase of gunpowder ignition that is accompanied by the increase of recoil and rattle. The greater problem is that players are even allowed to stack them together. The fact that this is even possible in ORDER for high level enemies to be taken down proves that gameplay flexibility in Warframe is in need of serious questioning.

 

Of course I'm still talking about weapons, and I'm arguing that weapons should not all be about Heavy Caliber, Shred, Critical Delays and what not. A major reason for players to keep using their weapons is because of their performance, but if the weapons themselves cannot perform without mods, then what else do they have other than visual appeal of their methods and a set of stats they're born with?

 

And thus Mr Fi suggested that weapons themselves have their own stat growths, which sounds like a good idea. However, another problem comes: favouritism. Favouritism has been a long standing problem in Warframe and it's common across many games. There would always be those 'Buff This, Nerf That' threads, but the issue here is the severity of this problem in here. Some weapons in this game have really, really bad base stats and are not very good to use. I AM TALKING ABOUT YOU, QUANTA WEAPONS AND CLAN WEAPONS!

 

Ideally, the less abandonment for other weapons, the better. Because Mastery Rank points aside, weapons in the game are created to be used, and deserve to be mentioned both positively and negatively. Overly lack of either is not good. If the 'bad' weapons continue to stay 'bad', then aren't they a waste of resources? I'm talking about disk space of course, but concerningly, I'm also talking about the work and effort devs put into them. Overly 'good' weapons are also not good because they become proponents of arguments. This is why weapon stat growths can make this issue spiral out of control in a different direction than Mods, because it can spawn a different favouritism based issue. It becomes less about skill and more about stats. Like I said, we need to move out of this funk.

Edited by Raven_Face
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Most don't even use melee because it's so weak. But pressing '4' is quite popular. LOL

However isn't this partly because the game is so easy?  If enemies didn't die in 2 bullets (3 if you have the wrong damage type) then we would be forced to vary our tactics.  And the game would be much better for it.

 

I agree that enemies should take longer to kill, if only because they need slightly extended screen time in order to do anything more interesting than die without resorting to cheap tactics like arbitrary immunity. That said, simply increasing enemy tankiness will just make us point, click, and mash 4 for longer. 

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I agree that enemies should take longer to kill, if only because they need slightly extended screen time in order to do anything more interesting than die without resorting to cheap tactics like arbitrary immunity. That said, simply increasing enemy tankiness will just make us point, click, and mash 4 for longer. 

 

We will at least have to use cover, won't be able to simply charge through whilst autofiring and might have to use ground slam stuns.  It will also make melee more relevant (tougher enemies take longer to kill, but the time moving between them will stay the same).

Perhaps DE could simply test this with an event.  Give all enemies triple health but normal damage.

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We will at least have to use cover, won't be able to simply charge through whilst autofiring and might have to use ground slam stuns.  It will also make melee more relevant (tougher enemies take longer to kill, but the time moving between them will stay the same).

Perhaps DE could simply test this with an event.  Give all enemies triple health but normal damage.

 

Cover is a bit of a touchy subject. The devs have already commented repeatedly that they don't want this to be a cover shooter, and to that effect they've introduced some legitimately effective dodging mechanics alongside Parkour 2.0. When jumping between walls and using aim-glide to transition over wider areas, the only times I really get hit are when I have my feet planted firmly on the ground. I was skeptical of the "accuracy against a moving target" changes Scott said he made, but I'm legitimately impressed with them. 

 

On the subject of melee... I wrote a rather lengthy thread a while back right after Melee 2.0 came out critiquing the stances and how melee combat meshes into the game as a whole. In summary:

 

1. Only stances that allow you to cut enemies down in one or two strikes, have wide sweeping swings, and enable swift movement between groups of enemies feel good to use in the current iteration of the game because being effective means killing enemies quickly. 

 

2. Stances that feature multiple rapid attacks on singular enemies need an "overdamage" mechanic where certain attacks in combos can't kill an enemy before a "killing blow" can be delivered. These stances should confer strong defensive bonuses while your Warframe is locked in place to make them viable, and focus on delivering more overall damage in the long run by extending the hit-counter. 

 

(A good example of this would be Dante's Million Stab attack from DMC4: you can use that attack indefinitely on one enemy and never kill it by looping into one of his other combos because neither one finishes applying damage until the final blow is struck.) 

 

The whole point is keeping an enemy alive to actually boost the hit-counter. 

 

That said... if Warframe really does transform into a game that doesn't feature tenth-of-a-second multikills as prominently, I don't think melee would be made any more prominent than it currently is... if anything it would be hurt in its current form; my Braton can out-DPS my Dragon Nikana. Sure, my Braton has six forma on it, and my Nikana only has the one I needed to move the D-polarity, but it's not a question of Forma investment. It's a question of the available damage mods and rate-of-fire versus attack speed. 

 

In my opinion, melee should

 

- Not prevent us from moving at full speed. It's the same kind of silly limitation that stamina was. 

- Deal higher burst damage than guns, but lower sustained damage than guns, as limited by its effective range.

- Compensate for its already-higher defensive benefits by drawing more enemy attention when not used in stealth. 

 

At the same time...

 

Get rid of melee bonuses given by stealth abilities like Smoke Screen and Invisibility, or at least greatly reduce them. Melee should be equally viable across all Warframes. What I mean by this is that melee should always be viable regardless of Warframe chosen, the same way guns are always viable regardless of Warframe chosen. We should not need to make ourselves virtually undetectable and give ourselves bonus damage in order to properly compete. 

 

I would also like to suggest getting rid of the combo counter, or at least heavily revising it. In its current state it is a novelty feature at best, and I rarely see combo damage beyond 1.5x or maybe 2x factoring into gameplay because the number and spacing of enemies simply doesn't allow for it at the moment. There aren't enough things that you can hit enough times, and if there are your teammates usually shoot them down first. 

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I think the best solution to appease the Nerf Wagoneers would be simply to add an additional mode in the game for the Nerf lovers to enjoy.  In that mode, all the nerfs they wish for are implemented into the game so the can get their kicks off with... whatever it is they want... while leaving the rest of us who are often baffled by the nerf viziers' suggestions to enjoy the game without their 'thoughtful' input affecting our gaming experience (or devaluing the purchases we make in the game).

 

They could hold weekly polls to see what they want next to be nerfed, get a good and solid community of like-minded individual invested in their preferred style of play.  It might even resemble the PvP part of Warframe, except would be done in PvE and entirely separate from those of us who find their contributions to the game to be more of a stain than anything positive.

 

That, I believe, would be a satisfactory solution to most people who play the game, without one group of individuals being able to adversely affect the other's gaming experience.

 

Those should be DE's key aims for changes to Warframes, Mods, Weapons and Companions.

Edited by DelialFallen
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