Weapons That Need Buffs. [List]

[Thrymm]

Cost shouldn't be particularly relevant.  Even the most costly weapon is relatively easily attainable.  If cost is a factor with weapon power, logically the most expensive gun should be the most effective, and if balance was done this way, we'd simply all use that gun at the earliest opportunity, effectively negating any actual gameplay balancing efforts anyway.

 

A really helpful guide, in my opinion, would be to either make everything dead equal but different, or to legitimately tier the weaponry.

 

People bring up stuff like the Mire as a tier 0 weapon, for example, and that's fine.  But the Mire is a weapon with an augment mod attached to it.  Shouldn't augment mod weapons, since a person must have progressed to obtain the augment for themselves, now be on par with the power level a person would expect to have at the level needed to obtain all the items to get to the augment in the syndicate tree?  Being a syndicate augmented weapon, isn't it reasonable to expect it to perform on par with the cleavers, for example?

 

  The Supra is not only a relatively high level AND clan AND expensive weapon, but also has an augment to bring to the table, it really ought to be among the most powerful by either tier or price logic.  It isn't.

 

  Plenty(all?  I haven't looked, since I'm high enough mastery rank to not care) of prime weapons are obtainable and usable at mastery ranks that completely nullify the concept of using this to judge where a weapon ought to stand on a power table.

 

Far too many weapons leave questions like that.  We can easily tell if a weapon is more powerful than another, but we have no real basis from which to figure out if it should or shouldn't be because mastery rank, cost, and even difficulty of use rarely tell us how much damage to expect out of a weapon.  That mess needs to be cleaned up and polished before we can definitively say what weapons we should be comparing to each other, in my opinion.

[CY13ERPUNK]

+1 OP

 

power-creep ftl

 

but basically i think DE wants certain weapons to be better/worse performers

 

just the problem is atm the MR req and costs dont match up, hopefully this is addressed in the upcoming MR rebalance, but who knows...

[Habba]

Wait , isn't the mutalist Quanta still good , because of it's alt feature ? You know that shoot through the bubble for insane crit DMG ?

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Wait , isn't the mutalist Quanta still good , because of it's alt feature ? You know that shoot through the bubble for insane crit DMG ?

I would concur

However, it seems the community: either feels it is gimmicky and not worth the setup OR Warframe Builder says it is underpowered

A couple of small tweaks to Mutalist Quanta would be nice:

Reduce Bubble cost to 10 ammo, Bubble is not movable by melee (just floats where it was placed), let it only shoot 1 Bubble regardless of Multi-shot (Harpoons don't shoot 2 Harpoons Paracyst/Harpak), possibly shorten reload time

Or

Allow Crit-damage mods to stick with Orb (This would allow additive Crit damage multipliers - seems fair given the setup time and mechanic vs Reward & leave everything else as-is

(Orbs does not boost Continuous beam weapons - they treat Orb as a wall, requiring Punchthrough; Harpoon Alt fires and Panthera Saw also do not get boosted by Orbs)

[Phyrak]

Jaw sword;

Change and update its model to be like that of the mios - a blade and whip

Maybe a minor buff to damage and attack speed too possibly

[sappinmahsentry]

All of these people saying Supra is bad.

 

Honestly have you even used it after the buff?

[Arunafeltz]

All of these people saying Supra is bad.

 

Honestly have you even used it after the buff?

I don't think it's Supra's fault. It's just that other guns exist.

[Thrymm]

All of these people saying Supra is bad.

 

Honestly have you even used it after the buff?

I have, mine has five forma on it.

 

It's a simple gun, not a bad gun.  It is, however, inconsistent with its mastery rank requirement AND price.  Compared to weapons with lower MR ranks and ease of acquisition, it's not a very good gun at all.

 

Considering that even with a +20% base status boost from the augment it's still not a status gun.  It's still not a damage gun compared to the damage guns.  Its crit chance is negligible.  It has poor accuracy(so poor it's actually noticeable, rare among automatics), a spool up, and its base damage is not the highest.

 

And that's where I'd compare it to some lower MR options.  It's very much on par with them, and better than plenty.  But if I'm to compare it on a basis of ease of acquisition and mastery rank, it's not as good as its place by those standards would imply that it should be.

[KnightCole]

All of these people saying Supra is bad.

 

Honestly have you even used it after the buff?

 

Yeah, I only found out about it after looking in the codex I think, seeing it and going to get it, I didnt know it had a buff when I got it.

 

However, after I found out it had a buff, I used it and I sit here wondering, if this is it after a buff, dear god, how bad was it BEFORE the buff......

[Pro3Display]

don't really know why you think serro is bad, maybe could be better at long t4s since it's a clan tech but it works pretty good on wave 4-5 on draco

not mentioning that landslide crits for 40k into them with serro

corrosive+heat build, no formas

Edited November 17, 2015 by Pro3Display

[MechaKnight]

I would like the Kohm to somehow have better ammo economy. I would really appreciate such a buff.

[KnightCole]

I sit here playing with other guns like the Gorgon, Tiberon, Karak, Supra and non of them seem to have the raw killing efficiency of the Soma Prime.  The Soma Prime has such low &#! damage compared to the rest, it even, with my loadout, has significantly worse accuracy then the rest, barring the Supra, yet it always seems to kill so much faster, so much more effectively, in so few bullets.  I rarely have to do more then double tap off 2-3 rounds and down goes my target. 

 

Yet I take out the Tiberon, a gun that has insane damage, it has like 1800 dmg per burst, yet I have had times where I need to put 2-3 bursts into 1 target to kill it, including some headshots.  Supra, I fire it into guys and it to takes like significantly longer to drop a single target compared to the Soma Prime. 

 

All my guns basically use the same loadout in damage/mod cards.  I run primarily Heat damage. 

 

Is it's Critical Chance and Crit damage that big of a factor?  Of course there is also the matter of it has pretty much 0 recoil....so its easy to keep on target, just seems odd guns with far more base damage cant kill as quickly...

[RealPandemonium]

Is it's Critical Chance and Crit damage that big of a factor?  Of course there is also the matter of it has pretty much 0 recoil....so its easy to keep on target, just seems odd guns with far more base damage cant kill as quickly...

Critical headshots deal x4 instead of x2 damage, on top of the critical multiplier.  With crit mods installed Soma is effectively dealing 5-10x what its base stats indicate, and that's before elementals are added.  

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

Weapons shouldn't be better or worse based on how trouble it is to obtain them.  Many player seem to think "if I put in effort, I should be able to become OP," which is a terrible design direction that is unsustainable in the long run (as long as we care about keeping the game interesting and about choice.)

 

As MrNishi points out, many of these weapons are not bad at all.  This list stinks of privilege to me.  

 

As always, I disagree with you xD

 

If i put effort farming for a weapon then putting 6 forma into it, It deserves to be a good weapon xD

Lets say if you ran Law of Retribution on Nightmare and for all that hard work, You got a mk1 lato Or you used 20 morphics 15 neural sensors 5 forma 8 mutagen and 5 detonite injectors for a weapon like the wraith twin vipers. You would feel so ripped off that your weapon is weak.  

 

I think the tougher a weapon is to get the stronger it should be... Kinda like how some prime stuff is hard to get and usually decent (errrrr) vs a mk1 braton. Nobody expects the mk1 braton to be very strong so they aren't ever disappointed. But people are gonna quit the game if they just farmed the void 36 times to get a new mk1 braton tier weapon

 

If effort doesn't equal strength/how good a weapon is then might as well have the lotus give everyone boltor primes and pre nerf synoid gammacors

While we are at it lets give sayrn back her old ult but give it 3x more damage.

 

Building a great powerful weapon is incentive for people to play the game more. Its basically power creep the mechanic but after awhile if all you get are guns that all are in the same range of damage then whats the point of making/getting anymore guns?

 

I haven't played warframe cause i already have the best weapons of every weapon category with anywhere to 4-7 formas into it for max damage. 

 

Also... Warframe is a play for free game.... Unless you buy your weapons with cash... The game is designed so you to put effort and time to become strong. Did the lotus hand you a max serration, primed flow/continuity? Cause It took me forever to grind the cores i needed to rank those up and i got one more rank on all of my primed mods.

 

IMO Effort/difficulty to acquire = Respective strength of a weapon. 

If DE made a super weapon that was an assault rifle that had innate punch through did 90 base damage a shot innate multishot and had 50% crit chance/3x crit damage and had 30 ish accuracy with a clip of 50 to 80 and a normal ammo amount that made enemies explode upon death, Id happily grind 50 morphics/neural sensors/orokin cells for that weapon

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

I sit here playing with other guns like the Gorgon, Tiberon, Karak, Supra and non of them seem to have the raw killing efficiency of the Soma Prime.  The Soma Prime has such low ! damage compared to the rest, it even, with my loadout, has significantly worse accuracy then the rest, barring the Supra, yet it always seems to kill so much faster, so much more effectively, in so few bullets.  I rarely have to do more then double tap off 2-3 rounds and down goes my target. 

 

Yet I take out the Tiberon, a gun that has insane damage, it has like 1800 dmg per burst, yet I have had times where I need to put 2-3 bursts into 1 target to kill it, including some headshots.  Supra, I fire it into guys and it to takes like significantly longer to drop a single target compared to the Soma Prime. 

 

All my guns basically use the same loadout in damage/mod cards.  I run primarily Heat damage. 

 

Is it's Critical Chance and Crit damage that big of a factor?  Of course there is also the matter of it has pretty much 0 recoil....so its easy to keep on target, just seems odd guns with far more base damage cant kill as quickly...

 

The soma is entirely a crit weapon... a crit soma does like... 7x crit damage with vital sense... ( forgetting exact numbers ) so 75% of the time bullets do 7x its damage. It has low base damage because of that. If the soma did 100 damage You are doing 700 damage a shot. so in reality the base damage of a soma is all its damages x 7 and most weapons can't compete. If a soma fires 4 bullets and 3 of those bullets do 700 damage and the last bullet only does 100 damage you just did 2200 damage. Unless you other guns do minimum 550 damage a shot they can't compete. (actual numbers vary) Boltor prime is the only assault rifle i know of that can compete with it but some people prefer the soma

[Darthmufin]

your list is sooooooo off it's literally making me laugh out loud as i type this. 

 

the convectrix is just as good or better than the phage and i have proved it.

 

*Attica- thunderbolt wastes a mod slot, it does really high damage and doesn't need a buff. 

* Buzlok- does the same damage as the Supra, and has higher criticals. 

*Convertix- kills enemies just as fast or faster than the "superior" phage. and i have proved it. 

*Dera -its a direct upgrade from the braton, and the Dera Vandal exists that buffs the dera anyway. 

*Flux Rifle- nope it's perfectly fine as it is, just mod for status and corrosive. 

*Glaxion- it does very high damage and status already, only thing that is bad is the beam is horribly inaccurate, that's it. 

*Gorgon- it deals more damage than a braton and has more sustained fire, and it has two good upgrades. no buff needed. 

*Prisma Grakata- the sound? seriously?

*Grinlok- it has an augment that gives it crit and gives it far more important radiation aura's. 

*Harpak- nope, everything about it is fine, puncture damage makes it good for grineer. 

*Hind- the hind is a slight downgrade to the burston prime. if you buff the hind you buff elite lancers, so no thanks, its fine up to level 40 enemies. 

*Lanka- no, travel speed is it's only main disadvantage. 

*Miter- you are a joke. i guess you don't know what slash procs are. or fun. 

*Mutalist Quanta- it's basically a more powerful dera with an added secondary function. no buff needed. 

*Panthera- it's fun to use, don't need a buff. 

*Paracyst- paracyst is actually more powerful than the harpak, mod with corrosive and heat and you will rip all the armor from a level 100 enemy in just a few bursts. stop kidding yourself. 

*Phage- riiiiiight....

*Prisma Tetra- and by your own admission, it's not that bad so that means no buff is needed. 

*Snipetron Vandal- i am starting to think you are a troll by saying the snipetron vandal needs a buff...

*Supra- lol yeah right, after they buff it so it's a high damage and status (with augment) machinegun with high puncture. 

*Strun Wraith- ehhh, no. just add a reload speed mod then if you hate the reload that much, stop trying to make mods worthless. 

*Synapse- even though it does more damage than the amprex and uses less ammo?

*Synoid Simulor- im glad you didn't ask for a billion more damage and 50% more status or something like the rest of these...

 

*Acrid- hahaha, with the augment and modded for status, it's still very good, melts enemies very fast.

*Akjagara- they deal as much damage as the Vasto Prime, and has innate multishot, it just dosn't have the crit. 

*Akstiletto- you don't need to mod it for crit, mod for status and punch through. 

*Mara Detron- one of the few i agree with, actually. 

*Dex Furis- free weapon with pretty good stats, and you want DE to break the rules and let us use a furis augment on more than the furis. no. that would make the furis worthless. 

*Embolist- just like the ignis, it's meant for crowds, not single targets. stop using against single targets. 

*Lato Prime- sadly don't own it, so i cant comment from personal experience, but it seems fine. 

*Sicarus Prime- mine has 60% status per bullet, why does it need a status buff?

*Twin Gremlins- it still has alot of damage and can be modified to fit any faction you want, and the status is good. 

*Twin Wraith Vipers- ironically, you don't mention the normal viper. no, the wraith deal more damage and the viper has the augment. fair balance. 

*Tysis- its one of the best anti-grineer pistol as you can put corrosive, radiation, and viral, attacking all armor and health. 

 

as for the melee, most i don't use alot so i cant comment much. 

 

*Prova Vandal -have you tried a status build? its better than the machete wraith

*Serro- dosn't need a buff, it has very high damage and already a great status chance. 

*Sheev- it was a free weapon, and even so it has good damage and very high status, it can also use covert lethality.

*Silva & Aegis- it's fun and its elemental so you proc elemental status every time it procs, not like the ack and brunt. 

*Twin Basolk- being faster would make it's high status even more deadly than it already is, it's mid tier, no buff needed. 

*Venka- the only other one i agree with. 

 

Most of your "buffs" are just more damage or criticals even though that would push those weapons to high tier. What is with you people who want every weapon to be the same? If you don't like how the silva and aegis can't one shot a level 50 bombard, then perhaps you should go on lower levels where the weapon is made for? 

 

Another mistake you make is equating more damage=more fun which is not true at all, that is subjective to how you play the game. The miter for example is @(*()$ amazing, full charge having 100% chance to proc something and when its a slash proc, it deals ticks of 1,000+ damage. consider it more like a bow or sniper rifle, pick off one target at a time.  

 

[RealPandemonium]

IMO Effort/difficulty to acquire = Respective strength of a weapon. 

If DE made a super weapon that was an assault rifle that had innate punch through did 90 base damage a shot innate multishot and had 50% crit chance/3x crit damage and had 30 ish accuracy with a clip of 50 to 80 and a normal ammo amount that made enemies explode upon death, Id happily grind 50 morphics/neural sensors/orokin cells for that weapon

And no one would ever be challenged ever again in any mission that featured one of those weapons.  The game has become such a joke that people actually entertain ideas like this.  I hope Damage 3.0 burns it all down.  

[bubbabenali]

I'm with you for the most part.

But the Supra? After it's buff it shreds. I mean it really shreds up to lvl 60 Napalms and such within seconds and with a 50% status chance especially with primed ammo mutation now it doesn't need another buff for a good while.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

And no one would ever be challenged ever again in any mission that featured one of those weapons.  The game has become such a joke that people actually entertain ideas like this.  I hope Damage 3.0 burns it all down.  

 

all you would need is something called t5 for the game to be a challenge

 

Heck a t7 would be fun

[(PSN)MrNishi]

The soma is entirely a crit weapon... a crit soma does like... 7x crit damage with vital sense... ( forgetting exact numbers ) so 75% of the time bullets do 7x its damage. It has low base damage because of that. If the soma did 100 damage You are doing 700 damage a shot. so in reality the base damage of a soma is all its damages x 7 and most weapons can't compete. If a soma fires 4 bullets and 3 of those bullets do 700 damage and the last bullet only does 100 damage you just did 2200 damage. Unless you other guns do minimum 550 damage a shot they can't compete. (actual numbers vary) Boltor prime is the only assault rifle i know of that can compete with it but some people prefer the soma

 

Mutalist Quanta does 2.6kper bullet when each Bullet crits through Orb. Short Crit chance test

Arsenal reads 2.5% Crit chance and 1.5x multiplier

Build for that video had 2.5% Crit chance and 4.2x multiplier

Wiki says 4.2x Arsenal multiplier is actually 5-6x multiplier through Orb and that 6.3% Aresenal cri chance should be 20% Crit chance through Orb...so 2.5% Arsenal Crit chance would be around 8% Crit chance through Orb (if using similar multiplier guesstimated by wiki)

-The Orb setup is what costs time and extra ammo on the Mutalist Quanta

-Making it feel klunky to use

(Projectile speed is a non-issue if firing through Orbs as Orbs turn projectiles to hit scan)

Heavy Caliber does not change in-game accuracy of Mutalist Quanta unlike the Details/Details Vandal which with Heavy Caliber take on Supra like accuracy missing 20m shots*

Soma Prime pulls ahead, because it does not have to reload as often.

Boltor Prime loses out to both of those weapons in terms of damage if looking at a quick burst it also has Projectile travel time which some would say if Heavy Cal is equipped makes the Weapon mid-range.

On the few enemies that are crit-exempt the Boltor Prime wins because of raw damage.

When adding in Critical headshots/weak point multipliers the gap grows.

Granted using Mutalist Orbs to shoot Boltor Prime through pushes Boltor Prime above both Soma Prime and Mutalist Quanta....if Boltor Prime has Vital Sense equipped*

Soma series and Mutalist Quanta are some of the few Primary weapons that gain more Damage from Hammerahot than a 90% Elemental on crits*

(Latron Prime and Latron Wraith also for in the Hammershot over 90% Elemental for damage)

all you would need is something called t5 for the game to be a challenge

 

Heck a t7 would be fun

If Nightmare LoR is what is to come of higher level T5+

Expect Orokin Drone to be Nullifier Shield drones like in Nightmare Trial - with some Corrupted Modular in addition to enemies having Radiation damage like the Orokin Overload alert series

-So no effective powers and Radiation damage against our PvE Alloy Armor

At least we should have 4- revives per mission at this point...

[DSpite]

We have open ended enemy scales, so "need to be buffed" to kill what exactly?

[DSpite]

all you would need is something called t5 for the game to be a challenge

 

Heck a t7 would be fun

 

See, this is the really big problem.

 

You scale up guns, then add a new Tier? You know what the gets you? Dungeon Defenders.

 

Even Borderlands has a cut off mark. If you just keep "adding levels" to EVERYTHING nothing ever gets more difficult. We start fighting off level 1 units with clubs, then start fighting level 100 units using Particle Cannons.

 

Feels exactly the same, only larger pretty numbers. What difficulty?

[Thrymm]

We have open ended enemy scales, so "need to be buffed" to kill what exactly?

Nothing in particular, in terms of what exactly would need to get killed.  In my opinion, they need to be buffed to have some parity with one another, whether that be all weapons equal(a daunting, maybe impossible task) or relative parity within their "tier".

 

This has a side benefit of artificially closing that enemy scaling.  If the "top tier" weapons where all more or less equal in their killing power, the top end level of enemies capable of being handled would also be comparable.  It would put a top end on where to expect power creep to wind up, because weapons flagrantly more powerful than those of the top tier would not be that top tier, rather they would upset the balance of the whole game(which is what we encounter right now, more or less).

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

See, this is the really big problem.

 

You scale up guns, then add a new Tier? You know what the gets you? Dungeon Defenders.

 

Even Borderlands has a cut off mark. If you just keep "adding levels" to EVERYTHING nothing ever gets more difficult. We start fighting off level 1 units with clubs, then start fighting level 100 units using Particle Cannons.

 

Feels exactly the same, only larger pretty numbers. What difficulty?

 

Borderlands stops at overpowered 8 the only reason people go that far is to get the best weapons, Have you fought a boss on OP8? its a ridiculous unless you have farmed for the gear you need

[Petersheikah]

See, this is the really big problem.

 

You scale up guns, then add a new Tier? You know what the gets you? Dungeon Defenders.

 

Even Borderlands has a cut off mark. If you just keep "adding levels" to EVERYTHING nothing ever gets more difficult. We start fighting off level 1 units with clubs, then start fighting level 100 units using Particle Cannons.

 

Feels exactly the same, only larger pretty numbers. What difficulty?

That's exactly what DE is doing! We had the Soma which was insanely OP and outclassed every rifle , then after it came out even better weapons like the Boltor Prime or the Sancti Tigris were added. DE keeps adding strong weapons and leaves all the old ones without updating them. That's why I'm making this post.