Give Hammer Weapons More Puncture Damage.

[motorfirebox]

tenno can just butter anything.

Damn right we can. Anybody who says different... is toast.

Edited November 24, 2015 by motorfirebox

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

Im curious now, in your home do you use hammer to puncture stuffs?

[(PSN)Snowbluff]

For hammer facts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBU-97_Sensor_Fuzed_Weapon

 

which are my favorite weapon to date.

 

The hammers here are mechanically designed for knockdown AND deal impact to help with shielded targets, I have ZERO idea still why on earth you want to move the weapon type into another category, so "no", it does not "make sense" to me.

I'm partial to the cluster bomb that uses metal filaments to disable electrical systems.

 

But I do agree with the idea that these impact weapons are designed for attacking shielded targets. We have puncture specific weapons more similiar to the pointy ends of war hammers for armor punching.

Edited November 24, 2015 by (PS4)Snowbluff

[Sir_Jim_Of_Slim]

The reason being that hammers don't do more puncture damage is because they are blunt force weapons. They were intended to put sizable dents in plate armor that would cause damage to one's internal organs, as plate armor is inelastic compared to something like leather, and cannot reform to its previous shape on its own.

 

Puncture weapons, on the other hand, are made for piercing weak points in armor by utilizing high pressure over a low surface area, allowing the majority of the force to be centered on one key point. Impact weapons cannot accomplish this easily, as their area of impact covers a much larger surface area, causing the force to be spread out over the surface area.

 

The only way the hammers could reasonably have more puncture damage would be in the case of the Magistar and the Brokk hammer skin, which both have protrusions sticking out of the head.

 

In summary, the reason why hammers don't do more punture damage is because weapons design and physics.

[letir]

WARhammers was inended to crush heavy armor with special spikes. All professional battle maces and warhammers have spikes or edges, like morgenstern or lucian hammer, because they was intented to penetrate armor. Blunt part of warhammers was used against ligh/medium armor and shields.

 

Warhammers was designed and specialised against heavy plate armor, they mostly used for puncture damage in real battles, it's their main purpose. Blunt part of the battle hammers used only against light infantry, or when the owner was afraid that his weapon stuck in the body of the enemy.

Edited November 25, 2015 by letir

[Kaokasalis]

The thing is though, you're basically using an argument like this: "A hammer can crush a can. Why can't it crush a tank?" It's completely illogical. Saying "because tenno" isn't a valid argument either. By that logic, all weapons melee weapons should be heavy in puncture damage because tenno can just butter anything. 

What im saying is that blunt weapons can damage armor or dent it. What your doing is using a completely illogical scale of reference. When i say armor i have never meant anything vehicular, only infantry armor. As for your second issue, ive already said its a matter of how it translates to in game design. Its not a matter of how things would work physically in the real world. In other games blunt weapons usually have a bonus against armor which reflects their purpose but it doesnt work in this case due to the way Warframe segregates damage types. Giving the hammer weapons more puncture damage would be more streamlined rather than having to rework an entire damage type, dont you think? 

[NKDG]

What im saying is that blunt weapons can damage armor or dent it. What your doing is using a completely illogical scale of reference. When i say armor i have never meant anything vehicular, only infantry armor. As for your second issue, ive already said its a matter of how it translates to in game design. Its not a matter of how things would work physically in the real world. In other games blunt weapons usually have a bonus against armor which reflects their purpose but it doesnt work in this case due to the way Warframe segregates damage types. Giving the hammer weapons more puncture damage would be more streamlined rather than having to rework an entire damage type, dont you think?

Still is a blunt object. They crushed armor not by piercing it, but by denting it in, thus weakening the armor.. They should do impact damage.

[Kaokasalis]

Still is a blunt object. They crushed armor not by piercing it, but by denting it in, thus weakening the armor.. They should do impact damage.

Not entirely true. Warhammers had spikes that was used for piercing Armor and certain maces had flanges to make better impact which could lead to it piercing the armor in some cases.

 

Also as i said, its a matter of game design. Would you rather redesign Impact damage and all the weapons that deal that majority of damage to make them ignore armor like the blunt force trauma does or just easily change it puncture? If you really feel that its important to keep bringing up the inconsistency of the damage type with the closest real world example, should we then not change the damage type of all Corpus plasma weapons to heat then? Im pretty sure plasma would burn through armor rather than puncture it.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Ory_Hara

[RafaelFuchs]

Not entirely true. Warhammers had spikes that was used for piercing Armor and certain maces had flanges to make better impact which could lead to it piercing the armor in some cases.

I used the tin can vs tank for this exact point. The thinner the metal is, the more likely it is to take substantial structural damage. It is much harder to rupture thick plates of metal. A tank's armor will spall long before it is punctured or tears from the pressure, but a can will just crush. Why use that argument? Old platemail armor wasn't much thicker than a tin can. 

A spiked warhammer would be a punctured and impact based weapon, but we currently don't have a spiked hammer in warframe. The closest we have is the Jat, but those are not spikes. The bumps on it is quite similar in effect as what flanges do. 

 

Plasma would technically be heat, but plasma is extremely hot and it melts whatever it touches. It is far beyond the temperature of fire and thus making it deal fire damage wouldn't make as much sense due to the fact of it being able to easily pierce quite thick armor. Think of it as a futuristic HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank) shell in results. Yep, keeping the theme of armored combat. 

[Kaokasalis]

I used the tin can vs tank for this exact point. The thinner the metal is, the more likely it is to take substantial structural damage. It is much harder to rupture thick plates of metal. A tank's armor will spall long before it is punctured or tears from the pressure, but a can will just crush. Why use that argument? Old platemail armor wasn't much thicker than a tin can. 

A spiked warhammer would be a punctured and impact based weapon, but we currently don't have a spiked hammer in warframe. The closest we have is the Jat, but those are not spikes. The bumps on it is quite similar in effect as what flanges do. 

 

Plasma would technically be heat, but plasma is extremely hot and it melts whatever it touches. It is far beyond the temperature of fire and thus making it deal fire damage wouldn't make as much sense due to the fact of it being able to easily pierce quite thick armor. Think of it as a futuristic HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank) shell in results. Yep, keeping the theme of armored combat. 

And i dont see how that arguement is even valid. Even daggers meant for puncturing stuff like the Fang wouldnt be able to puncture a tanks armor but its capable of being effective against Grineer armor which means armors arent strong yet to completly resist melee weapons. What your doing is referring to a completely out of context comparement.

 

Secondly the corpus plasma would still be heat damage. Thing is i never said fire. The damage type is called heat. You used the words "extremely hot" and "beyond the temperature of fire" thus meaning its a really high temperature yet your saying its not when it clearly is. I get that you think the HEAT round "punctures" via a jet of molten metal but wouldnt that more be a case of melting its way through? What is closer to actual puncturing would be a SABOT round. Theres also the problem of Plasma being energy where as HEAT rounds is a solid object. The two have different states of matter which is why i doubt they would work in the same way. I also find your post controversial at this point. Your assigning you own ideals on what plasma in much the same way im doing it to blunt weapons.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Ory_Hara

[RafaelFuchs]

And i dont see how that arguement is even valid. Even daggers meant for puncturing stuff like the Fang wouldnt be able to puncture a tanks armor but its capable of being effective against Grineer armor which means armors arent strong yet to completly resist melee weapons. What your doing is referring to a completely out of context comparement.

 

Secondly the corpus plasma would still be heat damage. Thing is i never said fire. The damage type is called heat. You used the words "extremely hot" and "beyond the temperature of fire" thus meaning its a really high temperature yet your saying its not when it clearly is. I get that you think the HEAT round "punctures" via a jet of molten metal but wouldnt that more be a case of melting its way through? What is closer to actual puncturing would be a SABOT round. Theres also the problem of Plasma being energy where as HEAT rounds is a solid object. The two have different states of matter which is why i doubt they would work in the same way. I also find your post controversial at this point. Your assigning you own ideals on what plasma in much the same way im doing it to blunt weapons.

You're right. None of the melee weapons should be able to do anything major to the Grineer, unless specifically aiming for a spot which the armor doesn't cover, but I digress. 

 

HEAT only reaches a high enough temperatures to melt the core (commonly copper), but doesn't effectively transfer the high temperatures due to how fast the jet moves (7-14 km/s). The shell uses pressure to make the hole in the armor. We also don't have a plasma based weapon currently in the real world, that I'm aware of. So, we're left to speculations. I'm assuming that it would be in similar results to a HEAT shell. So, yes. It's personal bias because it's pure speculation and I'm not versed enough in space physics to reduce the personal bias on how a projectile of plasma would react.

[DSpite]

Oh please... dont tell me you are going to say i cannot post feedback for a weapon type because i only started using another weapon type i find more fun than the Tipedo, around one week and a half ago? Of the three hammer weapons we have theres absolutely little to no difference between them at all. The only so called difference they have is that the impact damage keeps getting higher and higher from hammer to hammer which is barely any difference at all. Im trying to see some variety assigned to the hammers or at very least the Magistar in a type of weapons that is already very niched.

 

And the fact that blunt weapons were used against armor 500 years ago is not irrelevant at all. I dont see whats wrong with giving them a purpose they were orginally made for in term of the game design. Saying that they shouldnt is like saying swords shouldnt cut, yet clearly they do in the game. Besides the Fragor already had a armor ignoring damage before damage 2.0 so its not like DE never considered it in the first place.

 

What is exactly hard to fathom in the fact that hammers are crushing weapons?

 

Why are you so incredibly hung up on making them Puncture?

[Kaokasalis]

What is exactly hard to fathom in the fact that hammers are crushing weapons?

 

Why are you so incredibly hung up on making them Puncture?

Why is it exactly so hard to fathom the fact that blunt weapons were used against armor but the current state of hammers dont reflect that?

 

The hammers themself are already so incredibly niched with them them just being more and more impact damage (Jat Kittag > Fragor > Magistar). Theres no variation there but having the Magistar be a puncture weapon due its flanges would at least add some.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Ory_Hara

[NKDG]

Why is it exactly so hard to fathom the fact that blunt weapons were used against armor but the current state of hammers dont reflect that?

The hammers themself are already so incredibly niched with them them just being more and more impact damage (Jat Kittag > Fragor > Magistar). Theres no variation there but having the Magistar be a puncture weapon due its flanges would at least add some.

Ok, I can agree with magistar getting puncture damage, but why did you say all hammers instead of just the magistar?