The Borders Of Humanity

[Helch0rn]

With U18 coming closer and closer every day we will finally have an answer to the question what Tenno are.

Theories range from Energy to Space Lizards.

For me personaly Tenno are humans similar to Major Kusanagi in Ghost in the Shell. Merely a brain in a jar.

(If you haven't seen Ghost in the Shell, go and do it, best Anime ever)

But that got me thinking. Where does being a human begin and where does it end?

Can you consider someone, whose brain is the only organic part in an otherwise completly mechanical body, a human?

If yes, are they still human if they transfer their conciousness into a machine when their brain is about to be destroyed?

And what about AI's who don't know they are AI's?

Would you consider someone human you knew for a long time, even after finding out they have been artificially created?

These are just some of the questions that popped into my mind ever since we know U18 will reveal what Tenno are.

[Kaotyke]

I will say "read Excalibur and Ember Prime codex entries" to debunk what you just said.

 

But what I think: Beings made of a mix of Flesh and Hard Light.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Kao-Snake

[Morec0]

What is humanity but the representation of the consciousness? The body it is in is irrelevant, it is the mind that matters.

 

Whatever they are, I'll be fine with it as long as we couldn't just throw off our Warframes and give up being Tenno. The more physically damaged, the more "twisted", we are by our own Void power I think the better, but as long as there is SOME negative result of us giving up our Warframes I'll learn to be chill with it.

[(PSN)ZammnZaddy]

Lol ChangYou showed a human inside of Mag's warframe.

[Kaotyke]

Lol ChangYou showed a human inside of Mag's warframe.

In the ChangYu Universe: Tenno are humans in exo-armors

 

In the Global Universe: Tenno are ??? in exo-armors.

[Morec0]

Lol ChangYou showed a human inside of Mag's warframe.

 

In the ChangYu Universe: Tenno are humans in exo-armors

 

In the Global Universe: Tenno are ??? in exo-armors.

 

And even then it may have just been promo material.

 

Why does everyone forget what Rebecca said about it?

 

https://twitter.com/rebbford/status/591242290066288640

 

It was basically a "You are the Tenno" ad. Sort of like those Call of Duty ads that had the well-know players actually duking it out.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Morec0

[Helch0rn]

I will say "read Excalibur and Ember Prime codex entries" to debunk what you just said.

 

But what I think: Beings made of a mix of Flesh and Hard Light.

this is not about what Tenno are but more about what defines a human.

 

 

What is humanity but the representation of the consciousness? The body it is in is irrelevant, it is the mind that matters.

 

Whatever they are, I'll be fine with it as long as we couldn't just throw off our Warframes and give up being Tenno. The more physically damaged, the more "twisted", we are by our own Void power I think the better, but as long as there is SOME negative result of us giving up our Warframes I'll learn to be chill with it.

so, would you consider the Puppet Master, or Project 2501 as he/she/it is called officially, from GitS to be human?

[(PSN)Cwellann]

I will say "read Excalibur and Ember Prime codex entries" to debunk what you just said.

 

But what I think: Beings made of a mix of Flesh and Hard Light.

Really thought you meant this travesty http://www.destinydb.com/items/119482464-hard-light

[Robin-da-Reaper]

What I want to know most right now is why people place such value on being human. 

[Morec0]

so, would you consider the Puppet Master, or Project 2501 as he/she/it is called officially, from GitS to be human?

 

Yes, based on what I saw in the film he demonstrated all the hallmarks of what I consider to be human - notably a drive to be free of his state as however he could become. His methods were cruel, but such is a thing humans often are. Admittedly I only watched the movie once so my memory on the matter might be a little flimsy, but as I sit here and think about it I recall the Puppet Master A.I. as being the sort of thing I'd see as not JUST an A.I. program.

 

Though, in reality, were such a thing to come to pass we'd likely have to broaden our scope of human consciousness AWAY from just being human. Humanity would become just one expression of free will, evolved consciousness, and autonomy, perhaps "Sentient" or "Sapient" or whichever is the step above the other would be a better term, or maybe we'd have to invent a new one altogether?

[Morec0]

What I want to know most right now is why people place such value on being human. 

 

Well that again depends on how you view humanity.

 

If you see it as the state of the body, then I don't. I'd be MORE than happy to transcend flesh and become something stronger without the limits of the human body.

 

But if you see it as the consciousness, I'd wager that's because the human consciousness is unique to humanity. In all it's variations and subforms it's the result of itself and its own creation, and it's the best way we have, at the moment, to describe creatures that are on or above our level and standing in the great scheme of the universe or our world.

[Kaotyke]

Really thought you meant this travesty http://www.destinydb.com/items/119482464-hard-light

I have no idea what that is.

[RagDollRat]

Humans mutated by a well designed and controled virus from THOUSANDS OF YEARS of experimentation

 

I mean look at dark sector and that was a virus in its primal form,

 tenno are essentialy the "Prime" version of it

 

and AGAIN sentients cant control organics

 

so it would make sense for the Orokin empire to dig up old bio weapons which they had scrapped so long ago and honed upon them

 

for that same logic Nikana is made of argon oxium and future alloy instead of carbon steel

 

 

but ya totes my goats your all so right their beings of energy why or worms why use logic or deductive reasoning,,

Edited November 27, 2015 by LaoTao

[Robin-da-Reaper]

Well that again depends on how you view humanity.

 

If you see it as the state of the body, then I don't. I'd be MORE than happy to transcend flesh and become something stronger without the limits of the human body.

 

But if you see it as the consciousness, I'd wager that's because the human consciousness is unique to humanity. In all it's variations and subforms it's the result of itself and its own creation, and it's the best way we have, at the moment, to describe creatures that are on or above our level and standing in the great scheme of the universe or our world.

On your first point I´ll certainly proclaim I agree. Classifying as human simply by a biological structure is just pure, simple(well, unless you´re speaking extremely pinpoint details) but uninteresting fact.

 

The second thing with the consciousness is something I´d like to explore more in-depth, quite enthusiastically I might add. However, unless it comes to annoying people who start to take pride in our level of sentience and ability, I fail to see why one would find being human, even in consciousness, to hold a personal, individually or collective value. If you could enlighten me on that vague concept too I´d be quite intrigued once more.

 

Simply put, for as long as one is in a "stable state of being", I do not comprehend yet why one would put value on being "human". Pride over status is something I predictably scoff at, but I´m curious to see what other paths one can take to give it an actual meaning.

[Blakrana]

Transhumanism is an interesting concept, though beyond academic curiosity, there's not really a lot I can say beyond 'Good question, I'll get back to you on that'. When does a person start being a person, let alone stop being one? Ethics gets messy here (not that it isn't in general).

 

Sure. The idea of being able to overcome our biological failings through non-invasive augmentation is, arguably, a real thing. Pacemakers, prosthetic limbs that work on neural command...there's a lot of fascinating stuff out there even today which is leaning towards the beginnings of what once seemed so far fetched.

 

Personally, I think it'll come down to where we may draw the lines on rights for AI. I mean, all due respect, if we're going to create genuine intelligences by our own hand, then I'd argue we have a duty of care to not mistreat and abuse them. Seeing as 'human like intelligence' is the goal (not that it'd be long before they shoot past it) at present, it'd only be reasonable to imagine that a sufficiently complex form should be no different than a human in a bionic body of some kind.

 

I mean, wouldn't ultimately the point of difference be a quibbling that the AI was born through Science in some lab, and the Human was originally the biological result of other humans, now in a mechanical body of some form? Would we deny AI the right to love, whilst permitting the cyborgs to do so when they're really not so different any more?

 

I may not really...get much of what it is to really be 'fully human' depending who ask, honestly, seeing as I fail at least 1 test most people seem to laud as the singularly important, but I'd like to thank that if it comes to a matter of 'human rights', getting to the point of AI and such should allow us to extend them to being more than human rights, but to be Sapient rights.

 

Apologies if going on, perhaps, but hey...I do quite enjoy this line of thought when it comes to up.

[EmptyDevil]

In the ChangYu Universe: Tenno are humans in exo-armors

 

In the Global Universe: Tenno are ??? in exo-armors.

 

I would say they are still humans in exo-armors, since every faction in the system is arguably human except the Sentients. What state they are in is the real question.

[Morec0]

On your first point I´ll certainly proclaim I agree. Classifying as human simply by a biological structure is just pure, simple(well, unless you´re speaking extremely pinpoint details) but uninteresting fact.

 

The second thing with the consciousness is something I´d like to explore more in-depth, quite enthusiastically I might add. However, unless it comes to annoying people who start to take pride in our level of sentience and ability, I fail to see why one would find being human, even in consciousness, to hold a personal, individually or collective value. If you could enlighten me on that vague concept too I´d be quite intrigued once more.

 

Simply put, for as long as one is in a "stable state of being", I do not comprehend yet why one would put value on being "human". Pride over status is something I predictably scoff at, but I´m curious to see what other paths one can take to give it an actual meaning.

 

Perhaps it's not so much pride in humanity itself but in what humanity is: a standalone creature without any rival we yet know of. So, rather than saying "I am human and I am proud" it's more of "I am human and I am proud of what that means I am". As I noted in the comment above, were we ever to come to the point where we must face down something that is on our level but very different from us we'd have to redefine this with new terminology, but as it stands "human" is the currently best word to describe what we are.

[(PSN)Cwellann]

I have no idea what that is.

A terrible, terrible terrible practical joke.

 

 

Perhaps it's not so much pride in humanity itself but in what humanity is: a standalone creature without any rival we yet know of. So, rather than saying "I am human and I am proud" it's more of "I am human and I am proud of what that means I am". As I noted in the comment above, were we ever to come to the point where we must face down something that is on our level but very different from us we'd have to redefine this with new terminology, but as it stands "human" is the currently best word to describe what we are.

The problem with this is it's often taken as birthright.  Redefine... so, something like the gom jabbar?

[Morec0]

The problem with this is it's often taken as birthright.  Redefine... so, something like the gom jabbar?

 

Well, it sort of is a birthright. If you are born to humanity/sentient/sapience/whatever you want to call it you are inherently given this right. Whether anyone does anything great or infamous with that right or not is completely up to them.

 

And not so much that (though I'll admit my understand of "that" is a little unclear) as basically coming up with a new name for it. A term to describe the condition and status that is inclusive to all groups that face it. Maybe we already have it with sapience/sentience but I can't keep those straight.

[Blakrana]

I would say they are still humans in exo-armors, since every faction in the system is arguably human except the Sentients. What state they are in is the real question.

 

So let's say it's like the following scale:

 

Human ---------- Trans-human ---------- Post-human ---------- Ex-human

 

Tenno are somewhere along this line. What we're asking is where, yes?

[EmptyDevil]

This discussion is starting to remind me of Shinsekai Yori/From the New World. The idea of what defines being human or an intelligent being with it's own rights was present there.

[EmptyDevil]

So let's say it's like the following scale:

 

Human ---------- Trans-human ---------- Post-human ---------- Ex-human

 

Tenno are somewhere along this line. What we're asking is where, yes?

 

Pretty much but, ex-human shouldn't have a place on that line. It should stop at post-human.

[Helch0rn]

Yes, based on what I saw in the film he demonstrated all the hallmarks of what I consider to be human - notably a drive to be free of his state as however he could become. His methods were cruel, but such is a thing humans often are. Admittedly I only watched the movie once so my memory on the matter might be a little flimsy, but as I sit here and think about it I recall the Puppet Master A.I. as being the sort of thing I'd see as not JUST an A.I. program.

 

Though, in reality, were such a thing to come to pass we'd likely have to broaden our scope of human consciousness AWAY from just being human. Humanity would become just one expression of free will, evolved consciousness, and autonomy, perhaps "Sentient" or "Sapient" or whichever is the step above the other would be a better term, or maybe we'd have to invent a new one altogether?

I just rewatched the final conversation between Kusanagi and the Puppet Master.

His goal was to do what is ingrained into every living thing. To procreate.

 

He does this by merging his Ghost with hers. His reasoning is, that simply creating copys of himself would remove the individualism and make them vulnerable due to shared weaknesses. By mixing their "digital DNA" they create a new conciousness that neither identifies as Kusanagi nor the Puppet Master.

 

As it is right now I would define human as self aware, sentient and free willed. I am not shure if the desire to procreate should be included as well since this is present in every organism and asexual people are a thing, but they are also the exeption to the rule.

[Blakrana]

Pretty much but, ex-human shouldn't have a place on that line. It should stop at post-human.

 

True enough. Just felt more...honest to acknowledge there was a point after it...though I don't imagine it'd be pretty.

 

As it is right now I would define human as self aware, sentient and free willed. I am not shure if the desire to procreate should be included as well since this is present in every organism and asexual people are a thing, but they are also the exeption to the rule.

 

For the sake of the Asexual point, Asexuals can want to have children, and do so, so just cause they may not care so much for the 'standard method' in and of itself, some will still actually engage in it or in IVF expressly for the sake of procreation so it's a little more nuanced there.

 

Not trying to say you're ignorant of it just...clarifying in general cause it seems reasonable to do so.

[tnccs215]

I just rewatched the final conversation between Kusanagi and the Puppet Master.

His goal was to do what is ingrained into every living thing. To procreate.

He does this by merging his Ghost with hers. His reasoning is, that simply creating copys of himself would remove the individualism and make them vulnerable due to shared weaknesses. By mixing their "digital DNA" they create a new conciousness that neither identifies as Kusanagi nor the Puppet Master.

As it is right now I would define human as self aware, sentient and free willed. I am not shure if the desire to procreate should be included as well since this is present in every organism and asexual people are a thing, but they are also the exeption to the rule.

Maybe thats the fixation humanity has with AI. We want a child.

Problem with this topic is that it plays with more than philosophy. It plays with linguistic. Fact is, spoken words are but representations of ideas, and are by definition lackluster.

For example, I disagree with Morec0 in that A.I.'s, by themselves, can be human. Because my human definition regards humanity as an animal species.

However, the ability to make self-aware, conscious, sensible thinking with relatively great extension defines something has more than an animal, while it might not be human. That is, an A.I. is not human, but (s)he is a person.