Datamined Mission Rewards Are Bad. If True, Please Change Them.

[[DE]Steve]

Maybe they are suggesting it was always bad.

I suppose an argument needs more context, perhaps I've missed it. Bad relative to?

[Grimdarkwolf]

I suppose an argument needs more context, perhaps I've missed it. Bad relative to?

Relative to getting Mind Control or Fireball from mobs on Xini.

 

Or HELLFIRE from Tier 3 Defense 

[Kynian]

Steve, maybe what's going on here is that these rares are either too rare or too many rares piled up in the same pool, making getting any specific rares (getting any rare is already hard in itself) even harder.

I could be wrong though, but that's what I got out of it. Partly agree too.

I think the last time i've seen rares to be this rare was in Ragnarok Online, many years ago, a korean grindfest.

That is, of course, if that presented data is anything close to accurate. Please don't turn this into a korean grindfest man.

I still love the game and want to keep on loving it, but it's harder, these daunting tasks.

I know you guys got your plates ful latm with E3 coming, but please do what you can.

Edit: corrected some failed grammar.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Kynian

[Miaradz]

I think what he means is that with the amount of new mods you've pushed into the single loot table it's diluted the chances of getting Rare mods that are actually useful and not situational as heck on top of it being 5%. I find this a matter of opinion though because at 5% you're glad you actually got the Rare to drop in the first place, but I feel the more utility Rares could do with a teensy bit more probability.

Not to mention the Hellfire situation which makes Defense missions kind of meh atm with regards to wave rewards. You guys are fixing that though.... right?

Edit: Ninjaed.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Miaradz

[Grimdarkwolf]

Steve, maybe what's going on here is that these rares are either too rare or too many rares piled up in the same pool, making getting any specific rares (getting any rare is already hard in itself) even harder.

I could be wrong though, but that's what I got out of it. Partly agree too.

I think the last time i've seen rares to be this rare was in Ragnarok Online, many years ago, a koren grindfest.

That is, of course, if that presented data is anything close to accurate. Please don't turn this into a Korean grindfast man.

I still love the game and want to keep on with it, but it's looking more and more that way.

Edit: corrected some failed grammar.

To be fair, you are 15x more likely to get a Multishot mod(0.15%) from a wave 5 tier 3 defence mission, than you were to get a Raydric Card(0.01%).

 

Of course you could just run around the map and gather up 20 raydrics or so and smash them all with Bowling Bash or Grand Cross, not so much with Xini

local seed = 75732453 -- os.time()

I was wondering why having the wrong time caused warframe to clam up.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Grimdarkwolf

[Webly]

Except that it is only rare for *every single enemy kill* and Hyena has radically improved chances. [edit: I believe its 25%]

 

In 4 days of nearly non-stop Hyena runs, I've gotten 3 or 4 control modules, but over 100 fieldron from Hyena alone.  Are you saying Hyena has a 25% extra of the 2.5% chance to drop CMs? So a 3.125% chance from Hyena?  I guess that sounds right.  Pain in the &#! that is, not fun getting.

[[DE]Steve]

Steve, maybe what's going on here is that these rares are either too rare or too many rares piled up in the same pool, making getting any specific rares (getting any rare is already hard in itself) even harder.

I could be wrong though, but that's what I got out of it. Partly agree too.

I think the last time i've seen rares to be this rare was in Ragnarok Online, many years ago, a korean grindfest.

That is, of course, if that presented data is anything close to accurate. Please don't turn this into a korean grindfest man.

I still love the game and want to keep on loving it, but it's harder, these daunting tasks.

I know you guys got your plates ful latm with E3 coming, but please do what you can.

Edit: corrected some failed grammar.

 

This is true - more rares in the rare pool make an individual less frequent. There is some caution on our part because I think squad/lobby trading will reduce the grind pain of a particular item type. We *do* organize Mod drops by faction somewhat but I'm looking for an example game that you think does it right. Fusion and Credits generally means your junk can be put toward a subset of desired items.

 

Do you have a positive counter example from the grind-fest one?

[OriKlein]

*code dump*

WOAH.

Steve, this is mighty benevolent of you.

And makes for a rather good reference material in theory structuring such an algorithm.

Thank you. I know it takes a lot (especially knowing plagiarism is no doubt inbound).

Best Regards,

[[DE]Steve]

To be fair, you are 15x more likely to get a Multishot mod(0.15%) from a wave 5 tier 3 defence mission, than you were to get a Raydric Card(0.01%).

 

Of course you could just run around the map and gather up 20 raydrics or so and smash them all with Bowling Bash or Grand Cross, not so much with Xini

local seed = 75732453 -- os.time()

I was wondering why having the wrong time caused warframe to clam up.

This was to show a consistent run, feel free to uncomment and run with Lua.

 

I shared the code in the spirit of transparency not in the spirit of gibberish/misdirection.

[Varelze]

In Diablo 2 items were grouped into categories but each item had it's own drop rate % as well. So while both the manald and stone of jordon were in the unique category, the stone of jordon had a much lower % chance to drop. Also, different mobs / bosses / difficulty would raise that % chance, as well as having items that gave increased % chance. The thing that made this system work though is that a mob / boss could drop more than 1 item. I think the problem is that in Warframe only 1 item drops. 

Edited June 3, 2013 by Varelze

[Dagnome]

Its sad that DE needs to post the actual code to make you guys stop whining.

Here's a pro-tip: "Dataminers" don't know everything, neither does Wiki.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Dagnome

[Gearb0x]

WoW's set boss loot tables and various token purchases helped give a sense of purpose to the grind.

 

"I want X.  Kill boss Y.  If I don't get X, I get token D which I can get from all the bosses."

 

It's not perfect.  I killed one boss 25 times to get a 1 in 4 item, but it helps feel like I'm rolling the dice with fair odds.

 

 

On Warframe specifically, the key need is for higher difficulty areas to grant higher difficulty rewards.  Being able to farm everything in the game from Mercury and Venus seems a tad problematic for me.  I want a challenge for my supercharged/polarized warframes and guns.  I wanna chase purps in a zone where purps drop and so do players.

[10twenty4]

Its sad that DE needs to post the actual code to make you guys stop whining.

Here's a pro-tip: "Dataminers" don't know everything, neither does Wiki.

But the datamining appears to be mostly accurate so far. And the code doesn't help, since it's still obvious that rewards and drops are in serious need of an overhaul

[Webly]

Its sad that DE needs to post the actual code to make you guys stop whining.

Here's a pro-tip: "Dataminers" don't know everything, neither does Wiki.

 You didn't even read the thread, the data mined information is separate from the code steve dropped.  Datamine was about the rewards in defense missions, steves code was about resources.

 By the way, you got something on your nose.

[Datareaper]

This is true - more rares in the rare pool make an individual less frequent. There is some caution on our part because I think squad/lobby trading will reduce the grind pain of a particular item type. We *do* organize Mod drops by faction somewhat but I'm looking for an example game that you think does it right. Fusion and Credits generally means your junk can be put toward a subset of desired items.

 

Do you have a positive counter example from the grind-fest one?

A counter to a grind fest would be being able to fight extremely difficult missions or enemies for way better chances at good loot.

Grind fest entails just grinding trivial enemies (i.e most stuff in the game) for miniscule chances at loot.

[Nerokerubina]

This was to show a consistent run, feel free to uncomment and run with Lua.

 

I shared the code in the spirit of transparency not in the spirit of gibberish/misdirection.

Hey! DE_Steve.

 

I have a question that I'd like answer.

 

Would you call your game a grinding game?

[Miaradz]

Do you have a positive counter example from the grind-fest one?

 

Ragnarok Online was straight up grindfest. Every Card, which is like a Mod in that it adds stats/abilities, drops from specific creatures at an almost universal 0.02% rate. Cards are kind of essential when trying to get into higher level content so players would grind a single mob type for absolutely ages to get their Cards. And it was a subbed game. Yes those cards added great functionality but to get them you would have to dedicate yourself to almost masochistic levels to acquire them.

I think Kynian's point was that DE is being perceived as headed in that direction because of the way your loot tables are currently arranged. While I believe that grind is inevitable, I think harder content that is more rewarding like WoW raids or GW2 Dungeons should be how we get the good stuff.

 

[Miaradz]

Hey! DE_Steve.

 

I have a question that I'd like answer.

 

Would you call your game a grinding game?

Talk about asking a leading question.

[Dagnome]

You didn't even read the thread, the data mined information is separate from the code steve dropped.  Datamine was about the rewards in defense missions, steves code was about resources.

 By the way, you got something on your nose.

I read the general theme of most threads and people crying about the "Broken loot tables" is not a new discussion, the fact that DE put the actual code for common enemies out for you to read is above and beyond.

And your right I do have something on my nose, I forgot to wipe off my makeup from my date with Boogie.. I mean umm.. my girlfriend.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Dagnome

[Grimdarkwolf]

 Fusion and Credits generally means your junk can be put toward a subset of desired items.

 

To be blunt, I get many many MANY more skill mods (nearly useless for high level fusion ie Serration/Redirection/Hornet Strike/Vitality past level 7) than fusion cores. Credits are also pretty much useless to me, I'm sitting on 3 million, the junk in my dojo has all it's credits taken care of before I can log in because the rest of the members of my clan have the same over abundance of credits.

 

Since you asked for a positive example:

 

Create some kind of Tenno Scrapyard in the foundry, let us toss in trash mods (ie any mod we want) as well us making us pay a fee, something REASONABLE, say 2x the credits we would get for selling said mod.

 

Dump in X crap mods and credits and you get

 

A) A random mod

Frankly I do not trust you (you personally and whoever does the coding for percentiles of this kind of stuff) to give players such an easy way to turn their built up trash into a chance at treasure

 

B) Fusion Cores

Uncommon 5 and above.

 

C)Pre-Leveled Mods

 

D)Alert Only Blue Prints

 

For something like this to work you'd have to be transparent and not give in to greed by selling cash shop items like

PREMIUM TENNO SPACE NINJA SCRAP 

Access the highest tiers from the Tenno Scrapyard using these, Available in packs of 5 for 100 Platinum

 

Furthermore releasing along with a table of some sorts that shows players approximate chances of getting X tier mods.

 

eg 3 common skill = 5%~ of rare 5 fusion core

3 rare skill mods = 15%~ of rare 5 fusion core

 

You can try and hide these things but eventually someone will either mine them from the client or run enough tests to get.

 

You can use a similar system to have players toss in trash like nano spores/salavage to get a chance at Control Modules or Fieldron.

 

tl;dr let us use our trash as tokens ala TF2's scarp metal/GW2 Mystic Forge

[djimmi]

Its sad that DE needs to post the actual code to make you guys stop whining.

Here's a pro-tip: "Dataminers" don't know everything, neither does Wiki.

 

Have you even read the thread? 

 

The code was not even about the mission reward, it does not change anything.

Edited June 3, 2013 by djimmi

[DirkDeadeye]

This kind of stuff is why I will never put money into a beta game. Ever edit: AGAIN

 

I'm tired of the damn word being used like this, thought it meant feature complete, lets get these bugs out..

 

Now it seems to be yeah..that's good enough, let's start making our money back.

 

In an inaround way people have sunk money into getting around these loot tables. But they'll never get it back. That's a shame.

Edited June 3, 2013 by DirkDeadeye

[djimmi]

This kind of stuff is why I will never put money into a beta game. Ever edit: AGAIN

 

I'm tired of the damn word being used like this, thought it meant feature complete, lets get these bugs out..

 

Now it seems to be yeah..that's good enough, let's start making our money back.

 

In an inaround way people have sunk money into getting around these loot tables. But they'll never get it back. That's a shame.

 

This is always the problem in f2p games. The beta phase and release is not black and white.

[Aggh]

This is true - more rares in the rare pool make an individual less frequent. There is some caution on our part because I think squad/lobby trading will reduce the grind pain of a particular item type. We *do* organize Mod drops by faction somewhat but I'm looking for an example game that you think does it right. Fusion and Credits generally means your junk can be put toward a subset of desired items.

 

Do you have a positive counter example from the grind-fest one?

Diablo, Torchlight, and any number of other dungeon crawlers.  Generic loot (which is what mods are atm) doesn't excite people enough for them to be willing to grind hours on end for it.  The fact that people are grinding countless hours for a mod that just increases their energy pool (flow) is kind of sad.

 

Have specialized (ex sanctuary and master thief) mods, multi attribute mods, new warframe skills, etc. etc. be what people have to grind for.  Don't make us grind for generic mods that provide bonuses to a single stat.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Aggh

[Grimdarkwolf]

A nice man explains how the seed works and how to calculate your odds of getting something that's not hellfire from a defence mission

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1fl18h/defense_mission_rewards_and_scaling/