Retaking Origin - A Suggestion For A Perpetual Endgame

[Phaenur]

Aerensiniac started an impressively large thread elsewhere on the Gameplay Feedback forum, "This Isn't the Kind of Feedback You're Looking For...", that made several good points about the current design model – “grinding for grinding’s sake,” I believe the phrase was.  Now, personally I’ve found it easier to adapt than most of the people on that thread but that draws almost entirely on my circle of RL friends that play with me and on my instinctive tendency to set “storyline” goals for myself and roleplay against even the least fitting background.  Obviously, that won’t help everyone – but there might just be a way to make it viable as a game model and provide at least the illusion of progress instead of just spinning our wheels as we farm to gamble for chances at chances.

 

Now that I’m getting to my actual suggestion I’m almost inevitably going to ramble, and this is hardly fully formed, so I welcome additional comments and refinements.  In particular, I have no idea where to start on numbers and rewards, but I'm sure there are people out there with good starting points.  In any event...

 

What I propose is some system to measure enemy control and Tenno influence over a given planetoid.  My personal model, considering the zerg rushes we tend to face in game, is a simple numerical counter, almost like a health bar for the dominant faction.  The number decreases for every enemy killed at the end of a mission – just subtract the total kills from the big number – and refills at a certain rate per hour.  Let’s call this the “garrison.”  Now, the refill rate is enough to prevent Tenno from winning a war of attrition – Grineer clone, Corpus manufacture, and Infested…er, infest, quickly enough to replace the losses they’d suffer in occasional random incursions.  But then, there are also prime targets that can cause greater casualties or interfere with their reinforcements – Sabotage, Capture, and Assassinate missions reduce the refill rate gradually with each successful run.  Meanwhile, the Tenno need to build their own forces in the sector as well, with a second counter that fills slowly for each success and has a gradual decay rate.  Mission failures and player deaths drain this “influence” number, while Defense and Rescue missions give it a sizable boost (and an equally sizable penalty for failure).  The Datamass missions (Spy, Deception, MobDef) might boost the kill count and influence gain from future missions by a percentage point or so.  Alerts in general follow the same patterns as their mundane counterparts, but have higher bonuses and penalties in addition to offering the credit and item bonuses like normal.  Once the influence and garrison numbers start to meet, the sector goes from enemy-controlled to contested and this boosts the rate of hazards – particularly boarding actions – in future runs as enemy ships take damage, fall out of supply, or get pounced on by the other factions.  I’d love to see individual missions change control as the bar shifts, but that would be needlessly complex.

 

If the garrison can be reduced to below, say, 10% of default and Tenno influence pushed through the ceiling - this should take days if not weeks to accomplish barring coordinated action - then we manage to take de facto control of the planetoid.  This should give a guaranteed reward of some sort to all players who participated in at least the last few days of the conquest (blueprint, resource cache, potatoes/forma, maybe at least one prebuilt part for the sector’s Warframe – I’m sure someone has a reasonably balanced idea), and will reduce enemy spawn rates in missions while boosting drops to keep them consistent – we’re mopping up and seizing assets while we have the chance, not painfully inching our way through the enemy hordes.  Within 48 hours or so, that sector will get a Fusion MOA-style event that resets the spawn rates – victory here allows us to retain control for another few days and nets us fresh rewards, defeat signals a reset to the original garrison size and a hit to Tenno influence all across the system.

 

There might even be bonus objectives in controlled sectors, something like the build-up to WoW's Ahn'Qiraj way back when.  We could try to rebuild the Outer Terminus relay on the off chance we can hold Pluto for long enough, for instance, although I strongly doubt that DE is quite ready to let us out of Sol just yet.  Of course, if you remember the Fusion MOA event there were dozens of people claiming that the devs were manipulating percentages to ensure that we won, and they could easily do the same in reverse to give us an endgame objective while also buying themselves time.  That’s only a suggestion in the end, though, and there are plenty of other things they could do with the same concept that wouldn’t require extrasystemic maps or new tilesets.  In fact, while we're thinking small, each "capital" world (Earth, Neptune, Eris) could allow investment in a public Tenno lab.  It would grant access to research even to people outside of clans, with the drawback of only being accessible while the sector is secure and requiring a large initial investment to establish in the first place (granted, since this comes from everyone and not just an interested clan, the cost is definitely defrayed somewhat).  Again, suggestions and speculation, and I'd love to hear yours.

 

On top of this, there would be a strong incentive for clans to coordinate not just internally but with one another to lock down either specific sectors or even go for a complete reconquest of Origin, and adding some form of leaderboard for this would be wonderful.  That said, my experience with leaderboards is marginal at best, so I’d particularly welcome commentary here.  We’re already hearing major backlash against the “enforced” large clans, though, so giving some sort of per capita average as well as blanket stats would probably make them feel more fair for small clans and soloists.  If done well this would create the sort of friendly rivalry, the “indirect PvP” I’ve seen mentioned, that would inspire the entire playerbase to devote more energy to the game – and maybe pay into it along the way.

 

Hopefully that wall of text didn’t damage anyone’s eyes.  Again, this is hardly the system I feel “must” be implemented – but some form of tangible goal to all of our grinding would make the game vastly more palatable to those who are feeling burnt-out right now, and give some sense of purpose beyond “I want this cool-looking gun/suit/room” to basically everything we can do in game.

 

After all, didn’t the opening scroll promise that it was time to retake Origin?

[machinatedelta]

I actually read all of this. I believe we have found a Messiah. May the RNG God bless you eternally.

[Xan-Diesel]

Awesome, Phaenur!

[Skeloton]

That wall of text damaged my eyes and gave me a blinding headache from its greatness.

Really like this idea.

[Zepheros]

A well thought post.

[Hauteclere]

I enjoyed reading this. This is a very good idea. 

 

If I come up with ideas or even counter arguments I will let you know ASAP!

[Arch-Eternal]

Awssum Possum!

[tommyrt]

Upvoting, this would make the game so much more. This needs DE's attention.

[Whackhat]

This should be brought up somewhere the DE's might notice it more. anyone have DEsteve's email? =P

 

very well thought out, and i know they are trying to do more events.

 

However, this idea is better than events, even though it is similar.

[SetAbominae]

This needs to happen.

 

Now, the near future, the future-future, I don't care, this needs to happen.

 

It somehow reminds me of the chipwars in rising force online (though this one seems more long-term oriented, so I would argue it's even better), and in all these years that game is the one I can certainly say I have enjoyed the most.

[420weedlord]

In the name of all that is dank, I, 420weedlord bless this thread and its idea. DE please consider this.

[splodead]

Something like this would add a lot without having significant drawbacks.

 

The only things I can think of isn't a problem it creates but a problem it doesn't fix, that certain missions are simply more efficient to do than others - making it so players end up playing a few choice missions over and over again instead of going to other areas.

 

If there were a larger reward at different tiers of overall control of the system in general then it would give an incentive for players to run other missions. Some planets could be 'worth more' based on their higher difficulty i suppose, 

 

Basically you apply the same mechanism you're thinking of for single planets to groups of planets, and also the entire solar system. You need to hold 3 planets to get a region, and if you hold the majority of the regions you get a prize. This gives everyone at any level something to work toward.

[DiabolusUrsus]

This is an excellent idea, and it plays very well into the existing atmosphere of the game. Make it happen. It's a step towards creating a completely interactive game world that is currently being incorporated into a good number of popular games - the ability to see your efforts actually count for something.

However, a few modifications will need to be made to the existing game structure to make this system more feasible... if Sabotage, Capture, Raid, etc. missions count more heavily towards accruing influence in a sector, the immediately predictable result is that everyone interested in the global benefits afforded by influence will begin grinding missions with the most pronounced effect. Essentially, we'll still be grinding, just... grinding for a different set of tangible rewards.

That's where the Alerts system comes in. As it is now, there are essentially two kinds of alerts - the "secret" drop missions for the rarer stuff in the game, and the alerts that are good for little more than credit grinding. Implementing some sort of dynamic territory control which is most strongly influenced by alert missions will get more people to pay attention to them. It will also emulate unexpected development in the larger scale battle occurring across the system. So, make alerts that pop up have a substantial amount of influence on overall territory control, while normal, constantly accessible starmap missions have minimal effect.

Ideally, implementing the OP's brilliant system for an end-game will allow the existing planetary system missions to be modified to feel more like territory expansion (less of the copy-pastaed objectives, and a more unique setup for each mission) with a persistent focus on working your way up to a confrontation with the system boss. As it is now, the boss throws you a few taunts as you work your way closer to the final arena, but it would be great to see the mission progression give the impression that the boss is actively working against you.

 

An interesting if perhaps impracticable possibility is having the enemies be capable of re-taking systems completely. In other words, completing the planetary system missions opens up new territory in which alerts can appear, but doesn't add a whole lot to influence. It expands the field of battle, so to speak. The alert missions contribute quite a bit to influence. They're the critical developments of the battle. Fail too many objectives, or have enemies gain too much influence, and they start re-capturing planetary system missions (i.e. they go back to being locked and inaccessible until you push ahead again.) It would be interesting to see defense missions make their way into alerts as part of this system as well, creating the sense that the enemies can actually go on the offensive, rather than passively sitting around on their ships to be slaughtered for loot.

 

This could also go towards giving the enemies a much more immersive identity- the Grineer being the main force working steadily against the Tenno, the Corpus being the merchant raider opportunists that they are, and the Technocyte Infestation being the cosmic trolls that ruin everyone's day indiscriminately.

So to sum things up at the end of my laughable ramble, take the OP's idea a step further. Make factional control of planetary systems COMPLETELY dynamic. Create that sense of randomness and unpredictability that keeps things interesting. Lastly, have some events like planetary invasions or assaults nigh impossible to overcome so that this system doesn't simply devolve into "grind when we tell you to," and instead creates an atmosphere of the Tenno actually fighting a desperate fight. The Infestation controls Jupiter now, but who will tomorrow? Will the Tenno cleanse it "for now?" Will the Grineer monopolize its resources? Or, will the Infestation begin to spread beyond the sytem limits?

 

[Phaenur]

Wow.  I am impressed and gratified at how positive the feedback here has been.  To the people who made points of their own...

 

splodead: You know, regional control was kind of in my head but for some reason I never mentioned it on the page.  That's definitely a good addition, and it should also stop people from dominating the game just by farming Mercury missions.  It also ties in with what DiabolusUrsus said below you, where controlling linked worlds makes the rewards and also the challenges much larger because the factions are fighting for this important territory.  Of course, this would heavily favor battling over Venus and Neptune, but let's face it, there are much worse places to be, and a good chunk of the playerbase will be in one of those two at any given time (especially with Dojo building and research costs...yeesh).

 

DiabolusUrsus: I absolutely love the sound of most of that, particularly the opportunities to give the factions some sort of grand-scale "personality."  I'd love to see it happen, but like you said too much dynamism would be very impractical.  That's why I gave switching mission control between factions only a single line in my original post - frankly, as fun as it could be, it wouldn't add enough in the game's current state to be worth the confusion.  Maybe at a later time.  As for the difference between alerts and standard missions, that's a very good point and a natural extension of the system I proposed.  Even from alerts, though, the changes would have to be miniscule if only because of the number of people running them.  And that's another point - the point gain really has to be consistent with four people running as a team and four people running independently, otherwise it torpedoes the cooperative element that makes Warframe so distinctive.  This can be done partially with an extension of the same flag that prevents people from getting the same alert rewards twice by running with other groups, influence can probably be multiplied by 4 from solo (or better, since these are long-term, divided by 4 from team play), but kill counts are a sticking point.  That said, in my mental image the garrison sizes would be so massive that even with the differences adding up between all of the various players it wouldn't improve things that quickly.  And on a final note, I love that it finally makes even 2K-credit alerts actually meaningful.

 

Thanks again to both of you, and to everyone else who has replied.  I hope we can build on this idea, or spin it off into something even better, since it seems like something quite a few of us would like to see.

[Hauteclere]

Bump~. I'd like to not see this topic not be constantly at the top.

[Hauteclere]

Another bump. 

In support of this thread I've advertised it on my Mag thread here : https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/56397-a-look-at-mag-suggested-tweaks-and-noted-observations/'>A Look At Mag - Suggested Tweaks And Observations

 

Hopefully I'll annoy enough people by always pushing posts up that they'll either click on this, or click on my thread, and eventually hit the advertisements. Lol

[Phoenix86]

/signed, +1

[DiabolusUrsus]

I can see that tossing a bunch of confusion into the mix at the introduction of dynamic political control would be troublesome, so allow me to alter my suggestion a bit. Keep dynamic control on the backburner while implementing the more simple format of your perpetual endgame suggestion, and see how well that meshes into the community. Then, consider implementing dynamic control in a more rudimentary form and modifying based on user feedback. The only reason I am particularly fond of this being included alongside an end-game centered around influence over a planetary system is that it adds an otherwise missing visible measure of progress towards a defined goal, rather than a numerical value on the user interface.

In terms of making things a bit more rudimentary - scrap the idea of enemies being able to reclaim territory by re-locking accessible missions. I realize that was a bit extreme. If the idea of enemy factions spreading beyond or losing their "native" systems as far as current circumstances are concerned, how about emulating that effect to a lesser extent by increasing the chances that an enemy faction or two butts their way into a mission? For example, in a weakened Grineer system there is an extra-high chance of the Infested or Corpus showing up to pick them off while they're weak?

That being said, I think that one of the things that is missing from this game (a lot of games, really...) that could contribute a great deal to setting it apart from its competitors is immersion. So many games focus so much on novelty gameplay mechanics or graphics engines that they take away from the effort put into drawing players into the game world. Don't get me wrong, it's not that a degree of immersion isn't there at all - and most games do a sufficient job of presenting it. But a lack of immersion is a problem that is strongly specific to games that present players with a world where the odds are supposedly stacked against them. To get an idea of what I'm talking about, look at the Left 4 Dead series. They're nicely atmospheric, but they feel more like a multiplayer arcade shooter than some sort of zombie-apocalypse survival game. Because of the fact that they never really feel like a desperate struggle for survival (barring the more ridiculous difficulty settings, but even then those simply necessitate shooting faster.) rather than heading out for a nice bout of zombie blasting fun with your friends. Given the fact that there aren't any shiny new toys to grind for as there are in Warframe, L4D gameplay gets really old, really fast. When we're just starting up this game, we're presented with being a member of a vastly outnumbered force drawn into a desperate struggle against an expansive enemy. And, much like L4D, the game feels more like jumping in for a slaughter alongside friends.

The solution isn't upping the difficulty. The solution is giving each of the enemy factions a more unique characteristic identity, and giving more weight to the special operations missions Tenno run so frequently. And Phaenur's suggestion for a perpetual end game gives a perfect medium through which this can be accomplished. It is important to keep this in mind for the purpose of preventing a suggestion that gives the game something more than a reason to grind... from becoming grinding with a slightly altered set of goals in mind. Make it so that the enemies can fight back somehow.

Off Topic: It'd be nice to see the addition of "Resource Alert" missions and related rewards. Especially taking into consideration the manufacturing costs of Dojo development, it'd be nice to see some of those 2000 Credit Alert missions turn into say, 1000 *Insert Resource Name Here* (with scaled quantities based on resource rarity) Alert missions. I always found it disappointing that for all the Rubedo depots/caches I've messed up for the Grineer, not once have I been smart enough to stop and take as much of it as I could.

Cheers.

[Guest]

Now, personally I’ve found it easier to adapt than most of the people on that thread but that draws almost entirely on my circle of RL friends that play with me and on my instinctive tendency to set “storyline” goals for myself and roleplay against even the least fitting background.

I do this

and

 

these ideas are bawuss

 

to make it seem that we're making a difference in the origin system

[Tyre]

This...is..AWESOME. All praises from myself to you Phaenur.

[Stockyfrog14]

This is a wonderful idea! As a suggestion for rewards, maybe there could be a hoard of rare materials like morphics or any of the new materials.

[Hauteclere]

Maybe just a buff in material/resource gain in general. Consider it like this: We 'own' a region therefore there's little there to hinder our ability to access the resources of that region. Kind of like how in some games with a 'war' mechanic. The tides of battle affect the price of things...so naturally in a game where currency is easily relate-able to just about every resource we can pick up...It'd make sense to have buffs, and even debuffs depending on how the area's doing.

 

This might even effectively be our means to handle how hard it is to obtain resources in general. Don't like the current drop rate? Do something about it.

[Lumireaver]

Planetary trophies for our dojos rewarded for participation if you contributed in the last few hours of conquest? Gotta collect them all. 

 

Great great great suggestion, I really like how you thought to incorporate a use for each different kind of mission. That's very important.

[SymphNo9]

How would you balance the counter so it still doesn't end as "farming for farming's sake", when the only opposing thing is a gradually decay rate? Territorial end game is good in PvP but when you only have PvE. Particularly because in PvP, the battles are unpredictable, like a few opposing guilds can join forces to plan a stealth raid and regain a territory. Those unpredictable factors are some of the main thrills that makes territorial game feature so exciting. With a simple counter, it would just like, "ok, after this mission, I'll be contributing 0.2% to the progression rate, so we can capture this planet to get new weapons".

With that said, WF is indeed a dungeon crawler where farming plays a big role in replay-ability, and territorial warfare always sound as an awesome concept. But perhaps mix it up a bit, give clan leader the option to choose a home planet for their dojo. The available planet can only be chosen during the time Tenno control the planet. And if the planet is contested, the dojo could get invaded by the specific faction that is trying to overtake the planet. If they fail to defend or the planet is taken by the enemy faction, a dojo could receive a penalty and possibly choose a new planet as home. If they win the battles and keep the control, they could be awarded by some reward for their deeds. This would keep the incentive for clans to co-op across planets to make sure certain planets are "secure" for avoiding the penalty of losing while also encourage clans to work and plan together to secure contested planets.

[TheHeraldXII]

Phaenur, you are a god amongst men, this is exactly what I want from this game down to the details. +1

P.S. Will you marry me? :s

Edited June 4, 2013 by TheHeraldXII