Re-Rework Of The Snipers

[Azamagon]

(My ideas are listed further down if you don't wanna read my reasoning)

 

Unfortunately, the Sniper rework didn't actually help them much. In fact, they are pretty much off WORSE than before the rework (due to the hipfire accuracy nerf).

 

I see a lot of people saying that the only true way to fix snipers would be to change the game around them... While a legit suggestion, think about this:

Which is easier; to change the game so snipers fit somewhere, or to change snipers to fit the game in general?

 

Also, further think about this: Why do Bows and the Battle Rifles (such as Latrons) work well, despite the game being a hordemode game?

Well, stuff like quick reloads, guaranteed crits, punchthrough and ragdoll death for bows, and decent rate of fire and relatively large magazines in the case of the battle rifles, and for both weapontypes alike non-obstructive aiming and good hipfire accuracy, THAT is why they still work well in this hordemode game while ALSO being great at taking out heavier units.

 

And well, the Sniper rework addressed NOTHING in this regard. Snipers are still horrible in reload:magazine ratio, no guaranteed crits (except for Lanka with max zoom), no punchthrough (except for Snipetron(s) and Lanka which already had it) or anything similar can be found in the rework. Just a non-inspired combo mechanic (which already exists on melee btw), scope bonuses that makes zooming into another statboost instead of keeping zooming as a utility which it is supposed to be, AND a very unnecessary nerf to hipfiring accuracy...

 

To be fair though, the rework made the scopes less obstructive and the variable zoom makes them feel really unique. But that's where the uniqueness should've stayed imo. The combo counter and scope bonuses... well, you don't have to overcomplicate things just to make a weapontype feel unique. The bonuses are well intended, sure, but they are not PRACTICAL, nor are they fitting for Snipers.

 

So, all this blabbering aside, here is how I would re-rework Snipers:

 

* Remove the combo mechanic entirely (let it stay unique to melee).

* Remove scope bonuses (scoping is a utility in itself, let it stay that way).

* Remove or heavily reduce the scope sway (if necessary for PvP balance, it can be kept to some degree there).

* Restore hipfire accuracy (needing to scope on every shot is very anti-Warframe-pace-friendly).

* Make Snipers and Bows capable of punching holes through nullifier bubbles (gives them a real feel of "heavy target disposer").

* Add variable amounts of innate punchthrough to all Snipers (helping against crowds).

* Possibly add a non-obstructive X-ray vision while scoping (allowing the punchthrough to be used more easily through walls!).

* Increase critchances to 40% minimum for all Snipers (and Bows, except for MK-1 Paris. Reliability is a MUST for these slow weapons).

* Improve magazine-sizes and/or reloadspeeds for all Snipers (to give a bit of help against crowds).

* Give the scoping zooms three different modes: Ironsight, Low Zoom and High Zoom. Ironsight would be similar to using a Bow or Latron and the suggested X-ray would not work in Ironsight mode. Low zoom could be like 3x zoom and High zoom could be around 6x zoom. More zoom is not really needed.

* Possibly also make weaponswap speeds MUCH faster for all weapons (so you can switch to your secondary more quickly, to help with crowds better, for example).

* Improve Depleted Reload a bit, like -42% magsize and +48% reloadspeed and allow it to be used on Snipers, Assault Rifles and Launchers (last part just for funsies :))

 

Examples of values I'd put on the Snipers:

Vulkar

* 7 magsize (up from 6)

* 2,25 second reload (down from 3)

* 40% critchance and 2x multiplier (up from 20%)

* 175 damage (down from 225, due to guaranteed crits)

* 0,75 meter punchthrough (up from 0)

 

Snipetron

* Return it to the market! (Maybe give it a laserbeam-effect, instead of a hitscan bullet? Then it would make more sense with the lore etc)

* 5 magsize (up from 4)

* 1,9 second reload (down from 3,5)

* 40% critchance and 2x multiplier (up from 20% and 1,5x)

* 135 damage (down from 175, due to guaranteed crits and increased rate of fire)

* 2 Rate of Fire (up from 1,5)

* Recoil slightly reduced

* 2,5 meter punchthrough (same)

 

Snipetron Vandal

* 6 magsize (same)

* 1,9 second reload (down from 2)

* 40% critchance and 2x multiplier (up from 25%)

* 150 damage (down from 200, due to guaranteed crits and increased rate of fire)

* 2 Rate of Fire (up from 1,5)

* Recoil slightly reduced

* 3 meter punchthrough (same)

 

Vectis

* 1 magsize (same)

* 0,9 second reload (same)

* 40% critchance and 2x multiplier (up from 25%)

* 200 damage (down from 225, due to guaranteed crits)

* 1,5 Rate of Fire (same)

* 1,5 meter punchthrough (up from 0)

 

Vectis Prime

* Either 1 or 2 magsize (depends on Depleted Reload changes and/or if we get weapon exilus slots)

* Either 0,9 second reload (if 2 magsize) or 0,8 second reload (if 1 magsize)

* 40% critchance and 2x multiplier (up from 25%)

* 225-ish damage (down from 325, due to guaranteed crits and Charged/Primed Chamber being more viable depending on magsize or Exilus slots being changed/added)

* 3 Rate of Fire (up from 1,5 which helps with refiring and empty-mag-autoreloading-delay)

* 2 meter punchthrough (up from 0)

 

Lanka

* 10 magsize (same)

* 2 second reload (same)

* 40% critchance and 2x multiplier (up from 25%)

* 300-ish damage (down from 525, due to guaranteed crits)

* 1 Rate of Fire (same)

* Now has "autocharging". Whenever you are not shooting, Lanka autocharges to empower its next shot. This can be interrupted at any time to fire weaker shots (similar to now). Fire rate mods still affects the charging time.

* 5 meter punchthrough (same)

* Could need a now weapon model too, if Snipetron is to return.

 

Rubico

* 10 magsize (up from 5)

* 2,5 second reload (down from 3)

* 40% critchance and 2,5x multiplier (up from 25% and down from 3x)

* 140 damage (down from 200, due to guaranteed crits and the high critmultiplier)

* 1,75 Rate of Fire (up from 1,5)

* 0,5 meter punchthrough (up from 0)

 

This would give all of them some different styles (besides their differences in damagetypes)

* Vulkar is the "average" sniper, with only low punchthrough as a bit of a weakness

* Snipetron family is the quickest and "spammiest" of the Snipers, with high punchthrough too, but with weaker shots and smaller mags to compensate

* Vectis family is overall one of the more powerful ones, but has its small magazinesize slowing it down

* Lanka is the most powerful sniper and most punchthrough-y, but has a chargetime to reconsider.

* Rubico is somewhat similarly "spammy" like Snipetron, but with a bigger mag and bigger crits, but a bit slower reload and has the least punchthrough of all snipers.

 

---------------------

 

Furthermore, the following weapons are not Snipers, but they could also need tiny buffs (since they have similar issues, but lesser, as snipers):

 

Grinlok

* 8 or 9 magsize (up from 6)

* 2,25 RoF (up from 1,7)

* 25% critchance (guaranteed crits with Point Strike and Deadly Sequence!) (Note: Grinlok is thus more stable with potentially guaranteed crits, but has less raw and "wild" damage compared to the [Vaykor] Marelok)

 

Sybaris

* 14 or 16 magsize (up from 10)

* 35% critchance (guaranteed crits with Point Strike and Critical Delay!)

* Alternate fire switches between burstfire and duplex-auto. Thus, you can choose if you always wanna 2-shot burst, or if you want more control over when you shoot the 2 bullets!

 

Please tell me what you think! :)

[InterrobangTF2]

Honestly, headshots with snipers should cause shrapnel AoE to everything around it.
 

EDIT: Perhaps it'd be better in mod form, as to not screw with stealth runs.

Edited December 12, 2015 by EpsilonJackal

[DSpite]

I like them better now then what you suggest, which is basically "wind them back".

 

I like the combo idea, I like the variable zoom and extra damage, I even see the point in the hip-fire change.

 

If all you want is another gun for "Endless Horde Modes", then no, I don't see why EVERY gun should just fit Endless, when it's not a mission type, its a farming expedition which should of never even existed.

 

The only remaining issue I have is that I sniper from HERE - and my ammo drops, which are rare, and small in size, and which happen from dead bodies - drop over THERE (usually 50+ meters away), and on maps where things spawn in the strangest of places, you run into ammo problems.

 

Until we start getting decent sniper maps or missions, make your own fun.

 

[Drakenreiter]

* Make Snipers and Bows capable of punching holes through nullifier bubbles (gives them a real feel of "heavy target disposer").

 

This is probably the best suggestion I've seen for nullifiers. I really like it, it would give people like me that like to play mostly with strong single-target weapons a way to deal with nullifiers without making them like they're not even there. You'd end up with high fire rate weapons being able to quickly deplete their shields, while strong single-target weapons would make actual holes in their shields, through which you could then shoot again and take out the nullifier himself.

 

As for main topic here, snipers, well, I've always liked them and I still like them, I actually think the combo system is really cool. I do agree with most of your points regardless. I think the main issue with them if there was one is the lack of punchthrough. They're slow, single-target, the game throws huge hordes of enemies at you. If they had a small amount of punchthrough they'd do perfectly with the huge hordes, like other weapons, only in a different way, it would reward good positioning where you'd have a clear shot at multiple aligned enemies. This is something you can do with mods I suppose, but you can't really afford to use said mods as of now. It will however be possible if they go ahead with the whole rework of how weapons level up and get rid of necessary mods I think.

[low1991]

Idea.

-All sniper should be buff in critical damage up to 2 to 3x more than current amount.

-100% critical chance (always/ passive) when landing a shot on weak spot.

-Lower attack speed/ reload speed.

-Higher recoil.

[Gahrzerkire]

How about we dont lower the sniper damage? Honestly there is a 80 reponse thread about buffing snipers, one of the points made, was that a sniper rifle cant do too much damage, short of one shotting a boss. Also any kind of nerf to snipers is going to be counter productive, even with these suggested buffs they would still be hard to use, and they would still have a disadvantage compared to other weapons, so no, i do not agree with any form of damage reduction on snipers, no matter how consistent they become, becuase what is the point in consistently not one shotting?

[Azamagon]

Honestly, headshots with snipers should cause shrapnel AoE to everything around it. Just my two cents.

That would honestly work better as a sniper-only mod, as a Thunderbolt equivalent. I just don't see INNATE AoE fitting to snipers at all.

 

I like them better now then what you suggest, which is basically "wind them back".

 

I like the combo idea, I like the variable zoom and extra damage, I even see the point in the hip-fire change.

 

If all you want is another gun for "Endless Horde Modes", then no, I don't see why EVERY gun should just fit Endless, when it's not a mission type, its a farming expedition which should of never even existed.

 

The only remaining issue I have is that I sniper from HERE - and my ammo drops, which are rare, and small in size, and which happen from dead bodies - drop over THERE (usually 50+ meters away), and on maps where things spawn in the strangest of places, you run into ammo problems.

 

Until we start getting decent sniper maps or missions, make your own fun.

I say the following thing in a very friendly and silly manner:

DE's White Knight #1 strikes again. Honestly, is there ANYTHING you don't like that DE does? :D

 

Heh, well, maybe YOU like them better. But if you look around on the forums, you'll see that the majority seemingly haven't really liked it all too much. Me included.

 

No, I'm not simply "winding them back". I'm re-reworking them. The bonuses they got are completely pointless and doesn't help diddly squat in terms of what they needed to work in most of the game. In fact, they did the opposite. Now you HAVE to scope to use them, or else you need to use them at ranges shorter than shotguns to hit!

 

The combo counter just makes snipers' damage MORE variable than ever before, the absolute opposite of what they needed to fit their role (since they are obviously first and foremost fitting as heavy unit killers. For that, reliability is key!). The scoping bonuses, especially the bonuses on Rubico and Lanka, pretty much FORCES you to zoom in to deal optimum damage, which ON TOP of having horrendous hipfiring, feels more like forcing down the new scoping mechanics down our throats rather than being a nice, new and neat addition.

 

Wether you like it or not, an asbolute vast majority of the game is about fighting hordes of enemies (and being endless doesn't matter here, in fact, I don't care much for superhigh levels of gameplay, what matters is that enemies comes in hordes).

And by denying the Snipers to be decently useful in such gamemodes, you are denying them from most of the game. If you like Snipers, wouldn't you like them to be more viable in most parts of the game, like most weapons do (including the Battle Rifles and Bows)?

 

You are though, very much correct about the ammo issues. I can see, either as a Sniper (and Bow?) mod, or as an innate thing (dunno what would be fitting here) that enemies killed by your weapon grants you its loot from a distance, so you don't have to move away from your sniping position. That, and/or ammo regeneration, would help tremendously with that huge flaw.

 

And you REALLY expect DE to add sniper missions? Like I said, don't you think it is more likely that they'd rework snipers so they fit the REST of the game instead?

 

This is probably the best suggestion I've seen for nullifiers. I really like it, it would give people like me that like to play mostly with strong single-target weapons a way to deal with nullifiers without making them like they're not even there. You'd end up with high fire rate weapons being able to quickly deplete their shields, while strong single-target weapons would make actual holes in their shields, through which you could then shoot again and take out the nullifier himself.

 

As for main topic here, snipers, well, I've always liked them and I still like them, I actually think the combo system is really cool. I do agree with most of your points regardless. I think the main issue with them if there was one is the lack of punchthrough. They're slow, single-target, the game throws huge hordes of enemies at you. If they had a small amount of punchthrough they'd do perfectly with the huge hordes, like other weapons, only in a different way, it would reward good positioning where you'd have a clear shot at multiple aligned enemies. This is something you can do with mods I suppose, but you can't really afford to use said mods as of now. It will however be possible if they go ahead with the whole rework of how weapons level up and get rid of necessary mods I think.

Thanks for the support :)

 

The nullifier bubble holemaking thing is something I've seen suggested here and there and I really wanted that to be reiterated, as it really gives them a fitting niche.

 

I don't get why people like the combo thing though. It just gives them more (unreliable) damage. Consistent damage, like on bows, that's the most fitting thing you could do with a Sniper, imo. And the counter is not unique either, it already exists on melee weapons. Oh well, opinions are funny :P

 

Yeah, punchthrough is by far the most fitting thing they could ever have gotten to help with hordes. When I hear "sniper rounds", I keep thinking that they shoot such powerful shots that they keep going through multiple targets and walls etc, not "explosive damage upon headshots" lol.

 

Think about this, EVERYTHING has something to help with crowds in one way or another, except for (most) Snipers:

* Assault Rifles and similar weapons have high rate of fire.

* Shotguns have pellet spread to help with crowds (and now so high damage that punchthrough and utility are viable modding options)

* Launchers may have small mags and long reloads, but they have powerful AoE

* Bows may not have much, but they at least have punchthrough and ragdoll death

* Snipers have NOTHING. Just small mags and long reloads. Huh?

 

The fact that punchthrough, as you say, rewards positioning, is PERFECT. Good positioning and snipers fit like a glove, imo.

 

Idea.

-All sniper should be buff in critical damage up to 2 to 3x more than current amount.

-100% critical chance (always/ passive) when landing a shot on weak spot.

-Lower attack speed/ reload speed.

-Higher recoil.

More overkill when RNG is on your side? Even LESS viability against hordes?

You kind of missed the entire point of this thread >_>

 

How about we dont lower the sniper damage? Honestly there is a 80 reponse thread about buffing snipers, one of the points made, was that a sniper rifle cant do too much damage, short of one shotting a boss. Also any kind of nerf to snipers is going to be counter productive, even with these suggested buffs they would still be hard to use, and they would still have a disadvantage compared to other weapons, so no, i do not agree with any form of damage reduction on snipers, no matter how consistent they become, becuase what is the point in consistently not one shotting?

Well, you also have to consider some balance too, so snipers don't obsolete bows. If Snipers had guaranteed crits, consider their hitscan shots which makes them far easier to use than bows, if their damage was higher than bows, that would make bows very forgettable (except for stealth missions ofc).

 

You see, the REAL reason people ask for damagebuffs on Snipers is not because they are actually weak per se. It is because they are SOMETIMES weak. That's right, it's the unreliability that causes people to ask for this. I mean, in contrast, do you see people asking for Bows to hit harder? No, absolutely not, they hit like freakin' trucks, especially on headshots (due to how crits interact with weakpoint-shots). That is why you don't see them asking for that on bows. But on Snipers, they are asked for damagebuffs since they SOMETIMES feel very weak, when they DON'T crit. If they ALWAYS crit when modded for it, their base damage would actually be TOO GOOD (considering their ease of use compared to bows).

 

The statement that "a sniper rifle cant do too much damage, short of one shotting a boss" is gibberish and you know it. Some numerical balance needs to exist.

 

And your statement: "no matter how consistent they become, becuase what is the point in consistently not one shotting?" ... I'll just say: Aim for the head. You'll oneshot most things. On really high levels you might not oneshot a Bombard or whatever. But neither would bows and they are definitely not considered weak.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Azamagon

[KanesDeath]

Touched my sniper rifle once or twice since the rework. Was once my favorite primary to use. Now its a pointless weapon in my inventory slot that i used 5+ Formas on to maximize damage.

 

Hip fire accuracy as the very least needs to be reverted. Sadly i dont see this happening for i suspect this nerf was caused by the PvP aspect of the game.

[Siekier]

snip

While I (at least kind of) agree on combo and zoom levels, hipfire accuracy caught my eye.

 

You see the point in it.

 

May I ask, what was the point then?

Discourage sniper rifle users from using them in close quarters?

That would make sense if sniper rifles were more effective at close range than shotguns, which is definitely not a case in Warframe.

This hipfire accuracy nerf made all sniper rifles objectively worse in this aspect, they didn't need it.

They had some problems already (such as unreliable damage, they were bad versus crowds or nullifiers) and yet very little versatility they had left was reduced even further.

 

I'm fine with combo counter and zoom levels (though they sure need some changes), but I just don't see why hipfire accuracy was nerfed.

[DiosGX]

 

* Make Snipers and Bows capable of punching holes through nullifier bubbles (gives them a real feel of "heavy target disposer").

 

Nullifiers are not "heavy" units. They have zero armor, and low health. I've yet to encounter a nullifier that I couldn't insta-kill by jumping into them and using a single LMB -> Alt Fire with a Synoid Simulor. 

 

Nullifiers were introduced specifically to combat high damage single-shot weapons in the first place, as well as ability spammers. So, no.

[Siekier]

Nullifiers are not "heavy" units. They have zero armor, and low health. I've yet to encounter a nullifier that I couldn't insta-kill by jumping into them and using a single LMB -> Alt Fire with a Synoid Simulor. 

 

Nullifiers were introduced specifically to combat high damage single-shot weapons in the first place, as well as ability spammers. So, no.

But they're a priority target.

If sniper rifles could pierce through the bubble they would have their own niche and they would become a more viable choice.

 

Also, I believe you got it backwards on nullifiers.

Their main goal was to make spamming damage powers less effective. The logic on how weapons work against them is still a mystery to many.

(Why make bubbles way easier to take down with automatic weapons when slow firing ones were already inferior?)

[LazerusKI]

Overall a pretty solid feedback, and i think i agree with it.

 

The Combo Mechanic is indeed bad, it doesnt fit the "snipers way", it reduces build variety (hit faster for ever increasing damage), Scope Bonuses are terrible (i thought Rubico adds additional 50%...buts its 1.5x flat based on its base-multiplier)

BUT the scopes look good and the zoom itself is nice to have...the rest around it...meh

The Ironsight suggestion could be interesting, basically just a 1x zoom then.

 

The Scope sway is the reason why i currently dont play lanka, it literally makes me sick after a while...its not "sway", its literally "jumping all over the place".

 

the x-ray would be very fun for a mod when the mandatory mods are removed.

 

And the nullifier idea? oh man it was suggested so many times "give us a way to deal with them, remove the max-damage cap, let us puncture them..." but so far nothing happened, nullifiers are still a terrible design (still not as bad as the 1.0 Seekers though)

 

And your Snipetron suggestion remembered me about the one topic i made a while ago

I would love to have Lanka Model 2.0 and Snipetron Rebirth

Corpus:

Type: Bolt Action Laser Rifle

Not like Lankas Plasma, more like Opticors Pulse-Laser

Mechanic:

It doesnt use a charge mechanic like Opticor or Lanka, its more like Vectis.

the idea behind it would be basically the use of one-time-use crystals that are used to form the highly focused Pulse.
After each shot it throws out the now useless crystal so that you can put another one in.
The reload would be slightly longer than Vectis, because of the technology i describe below.
Has no recoil and is almost silent (its a laser, it still alerts because its a visible beam).

Also each shot leaves behind a trail like Opticor.
Uses the regular 1.5 rounds per second (with reload) that all sniper rifles have at the moment

Damage Type: High Puncture with a little bit of Heat (like a hot needle)

Additional Effects: Punch Through (based on the results of the rework, i think 2-5m are necessary for most rifles)

Description:

A High Precision Long Range Sniper Rifle designed to deal with Heavy Armored Enemies.

This Rifle was designed after the great success of the Heavy Opticor Launcher.
Through the use of a synthetic crystal, Corpus Engineers archived an even higher focused beam that can pierce through most known materials by melting them a tiny hole into them.
Since these crystals are extremely fragile, the use in magazine fed automatic weapons is not possible. Even the slightest impact in the magazine can cause the destruction of several crystals.
To keep these crystals safe during transport, Corpus Engineers developed individual stasis containers that the Snipers can carry on their belt.

 

 

personally im totally in love with Rubico, it looks nice, it sounds massive...but the stats...THE STATS...they are terrible.

Lowest damage of all the Sniper Rifles (Only Olds Snipetron is lower), Tiny Magazine, Slow Reload...BUT it has a massive crit multiplier and combo trigger...with 100% crit it would be worth using it, but for now im kinda sick of hitting two or more magazines without getting a single crit...and that was with maxed crit mods.

 

Also things that i had in mind:

 

To deal with hordes i think it could be fun if the different damage types could have their own unique way.

The more Puncture it has as base, the higher the Punch Through would be

More Impact results in a radial "wave" around its point of impact

Of course both could still be modded for it, since there is no "pure one physical" Sniper yet.

 

Headshots should be the way we get rewarded, not combos. make them so that they add 100% extra crit, then it would be even fine if snipers would stay at 25% critchance. a headshot would then have a 125% critchance, just like a bow. modded it would then increase to 160% or so, making a well placed headshot very rewarding.

 

Scope mods should be choosable, kinda like an exilus slot, just for scope mods only. that way you can adapt your build to different things (damage, crit, status etc), or even add unique bonuses (stealth-instakill, x-ray, explosive death or whatever, be creative)

Edited December 13, 2015 by LazerusKI

[Burnthesteak87]

I'd totally scrap away Critical Hit Chance and Critical Damage for they're stats made based on RNG for RPG games.

I'd implement then Weakspot Multiplier (which is the actual Headshot Multiplier) and increase it dramatically for snipers and lower it for automatic rifles.
This also would open some Mod Slots for more utility, since another drama on Snipers is the necessity to oneshot, so they often require to focus on max damage.

To emphasize also the Sniper role, let's make Sniper Rifles able to having a 100% status proc chance on Weakspot Hit. 

I'd totally approve an X-Ray vision while scoping.

I'm not that negative about the Combo Counter. I found the combo pretty useful for sniping heavy armored targets like Bombarders and Heavy Gunners, since without a sure crit they can't be oneshotted.
This influenced the gameplay by forcing me to start from easy targets to oneshot heavy targets when the combo counter is full.

PS:
As other people suggested, also sniper units among enemies need some kind of Telegraphing to their oneshot attacks, would it be some flashing advising you're currently under their aim or similar effects.
High level Ballisticas, Railgun Moas and Nullifiers atm are out of control.
 

Edited December 26, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Bipp]

I'd totally scrap away Critical Hit Chance and Critical Damage for they're stats made based on RNG for RPG games.

I'd implement then Weakspot Multiplier (which is the actual Headshot Multiplier) and increase it dramatically for snipers and lower it for automatic rifles.

This also would open some Mod Slots for more utility, since another drama on Snipers is the necessity to oneshot, so they often require to focus on max damage.

 

Borderlands and Destiny do this very well.

 

I'm all for making a larger selection of mods viable on guns, be it sniper or anything else.

[HunRii]

Meh, if they made sniper rifles be like bows, they would be more useful.  The changes were OK, but they didn't really make them useful.  The combo system isn't what was needed, and is too variable.

 

Sniper rifles need to be more like bows.  More crit, more damage.  They went from the least useful primary, to being still the least useful primary.  Just not nearly as bad, and still lacking.

[DSpite]

"DE's White Knight #1 strikes again. Honestly, is there ANYTHING you don't like that DE does? :D"

 

Is there ANYTHING you "like" in this game? Why is everyone still here if they dislike it so much? How about people actually play the content as it is given to us, THEN offer feedback, THEN simply wait and deal with what DE tell you they should be? Yelling "it's broken" is not feedback,

 

It is not a matter of "like or not like", there is a very long list of what I don't like, what I don't do is complain constantly to make EVERYTHING in the game fit EVERYTHING else.

 

You can't effectively take Sniper Rifles into Endless missions? So what? I also don't fire my Penta inside cramped spaces, or run Spy missions using a Harpak.

 

Also I wish people would drop the "white knight" BS since it's not what it means anyway. I'm also not saying the current mechanics are perfect, I'm saying they are not as broken as people keep massively exaggerating they are. Big difference.

 

You don't get massive spawns in missions with the Alarms off. You don't have to kill a million things to finish normal missions. You don't need to "hip fire" at things and should not because its a SNIPER RIFLE.

 

Ammo issues? Sure. Inability to get Multi Shot to 100% on a weapon that really, REALLY needs to be consistent with head shots? Definitively. Not been able to even tell where crit spots are on some things, or having the problem where units twitch and move and change directions like Air Hockey pucks? Infuriating to say the least.

 

What we have now is a LOT better then before, and if I do see suggestions that look intelligent, I will say so, until then, just reading what is basically "I can't use it MY way, so it must be broken" is NOT good enough.

 

"they are pretty much off WORSE than before the rework (due to the hipfire accuracy nerf)."

 

That is NOT a fact, it's an opinion. Why are you using a Sniper Rifle point blank? Why not move, THEN fire? Why are you not using your secondary for the function is it was INTENDED to do, which is complement situations that don't fit your primary? You blame the tools because you chose to use them incorrectly. Not how it works.

Edited December 16, 2015 by DSpite

[Azamagon]

Is there ANYTHING you "like" in this game? Why is everyone still here if they dislike it so much? How about people actually play the content as it is given to us, THEN offer feedback, THEN simply wait and deal with what DE tell you they should be? Yelling "it's broken" is not feedback,

 

It is not a matter of "like or not like", there is a very long list of what I don't like, what I don't do is complain constantly to make EVERYTHING in the game fit EVERYTHING else.

 

You can't effectively take Sniper Rifles into Endless missions? So what? I also don't fire my Penta inside cramped spaces, or run Spy missions using a Harpak.

 

Also I wish people would drop the "white knight" BS since it's not what it means anyway. I'm also not saying the current mechanics are perfect, I'm saying they are not as broken as people keep massively exaggerating they are. Big difference.

 

You don't get massive spawns in missions with the Alarms off. You don't have to kill a million things to finish normal missions. You don't need to "hip fire" at things and should not because its a SNIPER RIFLE.

 

Ammo issues? Sure. Inability to get Multi Shot to 100% on a weapon that really, REALLY needs to be consistent with head shots? Definitively. Not been able to even tell where crit spots are on some things, or having the problem where units twitch and move and change directions like Air Hockey pucks? Infuriating to say the least.

 

What we have now is a LOT better then before, and if I do see suggestions that look intelligent, I will say so, until then, just reading what is basically "I can't use it MY way, so it must be broken" is NOT good enough.

 

That is NOT a fact, it's an opinion. Why are you using a Sniper Rifle point blank? Why not move, THEN fire? Why are you not using your secondary for the function is it was INTENDED to do, which is complement situations that don't fit your primary? You blame the tools because you chose to use them incorrectly. Not how it works.

First of all, you seem upset, if so, please calm down, I did post that "white knight" comment with a lot of humour intended (I even wrote so).

 

If I like anything in Warframe? Yes, the absolute great majority of it, in fact! :) Sounds, graphics, feeling, bunch of creative stuff all around. But then there are 2 things that DE REALLY need help with to perfect the game:

Numbers and Mechanics. Back to that later.

 

And why DON'T you complain? Only praising them or even backing up weird/bad/random decisions of theirs is not gonna help the game much to improve. Constructive feedback, mainly negative ones, will help the game more than anything. Of course giving them compliments when they do stuff right (like people have already done so much about the cinematic quest, for example) is great too. But knowing both what to do and what NOT to do is for their own best.

 

Sniper Rifles are EXTREMELY niched for what they can be used for in an "effective" manner. They work ok for soloing ez-mode missions in a slow manner (like Exterminate).

The Penta not being used in cramped spaces? You can still use it, you just have to be more careful. Other than that it is a very useful weapon.

Harpak not used in Spy missions? Slap a Hush on it and it works just fine there. Like the Penta, otherwise a very useful weapon.

Snipers just don't do ANYTHING particularly well, that's their problem. Oh yeah, they can see and shoot REALLY far away, which is EXTREMELY rare occurance and a generally pointless niche to have.

 

And the changes and mechanics are maybe not "broken" per se, but they are still useless for the great majority of the game. Sure, the scope UIs? Good change I guess (I'm neutral myself). And the scope zoom variability? Really awesome! That's the ONE thing I liked about this rework.

But the combo mechanic? Pointless. They neither have the magazines to use it effectively (in contrast to melee with no such thing hindering them), nor did they need more randomized base damage. People have been clamoring for RELIABLE damage (such as guaranteed critical hits when modded) before anything else. With the combo, it just varies even more wildly. Just compare a bow and a sniper in a prime "niche" scenario:

 

A heavy unit appears that needs killing asap. A bow would just need to place a headshot on the target and the target would very likely be gone instantly. The sniper however, either needs to rely on RNG, or shoot / have preemptively shot a bunch of mooks first to ramp up the damage enough so that the non-crits are reliable enough to kill the heavy unit, if there are enough bullets in the mag or enemies nearby on the map for that to work in the first place.

^ See the point I'm trying to say? Both the mechanic (combo system) and the numbers (RNG) makes Snipers bad and clunky. Instead of fixing the RNG (their biggest problem) they added a mechanic (combos) which doesn't help anything in a practical manner for its intended niche.

 

If you want alarms off, you need to put Hush on your Sniper Rifle or shoot from REALLY far away (or use Lanka, the bow in sniper-disguise). Then you can run EASY missions with it more easily. But if you are unlucky, they might be crap for stealth anyway since your RNG might not kill your intended target (especially on higher levels). Or you could just bring a bow and not care about making noises nor about fighting with RNG. So, your point is? I could do this with ANY suppressable weapon, Snipers included, yes. This really says nothing to me.

 

Not hip fire, just cuz it's a Sniper Rifle? Well, look at MOST missions. Tons of enemies. Say you bring a Sniper Rifle to (if they were reliable at killing heavies, let's assume so) with the intention to kill heavy units, as a supportive sniper. Now a unit sneaks up uncomfortably close, but not close enough to melee it. You could pull out your secondary (if it wasn't so EXTREMELY slow, ANOTHER mechanic that cripples Sniper Rifles indirectly), or you could just hipshot the assailant... but the insane inaccuracy on the Sniper doesn't allow you to do so. The no-hip-fire thing is just detrimental to most of Warframe's pace, thus it simply needs to be reverted.

Not to mention, Snipers, considered one of the worst weapon classes in the entire game, also is the only weapon to got this nerf when NO OTHER WEAPON has this issue! Then it would also make sense to have horrible hipfiring on any weapon for that matter. But it's so completely out of place to nerf any weapon like that, due to how this game works, and Snipers, of all weapons, surely didn't need this RNG-nerf.

 

And... you SEE? You even agreed with a lot! :D Ammo issues, lack of reliability, enemy sporadicness... you HAVE things you should be telling them to fix! Yet you say this is a lot better than before? None of those criticals issues were solved! The combomechanic is pointless, the scopebonuses are impractical in most parts of the game and on top of that a nerf to hipfire accuracy and a non-realistic scopesway... how are they really BETTER? Cuz you sometimes hit a bit harder? That was never their issue!

 

Once again, what we have now is not "a LOT better". Most of the buffs are pointless: Combo mechanic doesn't really help much, scope bonuses are impractical, the variable zoom and new uis are nice though, but the scope sway and hipfiring are clear nerfs. How is all that "a LOT better"?

 

And wow, how nice. You just indirectly tried to call me (and many others) stupid. Mature.

The suggestions I have there are not "I can't use it MY way, so it must be broken". They are a collection of good, intelligent and reasonable ideas from the community on how to improve Snipers in a practical way so they do their intended job well (being reliable killers of heavy units and high priority targets, even from long distances) while also making sure that they can still do reasonably well in most parts of the game too (making them still ok-ish at thinning out crowds). You know, more similar to their cousins, the bows.

 

Please tell me, in what way do you find using Snipers better than when using any other weapon?

For stealth? Bows outclass them by a longshot, and Battle Rifles / Launchers / pretty much anything else too (especially if it is a heavy-hitting weapon) with a Hush-mod slapped on.

Taking out targets at really long distances? Maybe they are EASIER to use than Bows, but arrows have minimal drop and high velocities, so with their lack of RNG damage, they are imo still better for that too. Besides, really long distances are extremely rare anyway which you can easily fix by just getting a little closer.

 

Like I explained above, you sometimes don't have time (nor space) to move, you sometimes have to point blank them with your equipped weapon. And you should know by now that weapon swap speed is atrociously slow...

Edited December 18, 2015 by Azamagon

[LuftWaifu]

That is NOT a fact, it's an opinion. Why are you using a Sniper Rifle point blank? Why not move, THEN fire? Why are you not using your secondary for the function is it was INTENDED to do, which is complement situations that don't fit your primary? You blame the tools because you chose to use them incorrectly. Not how it works.

 

The correct use for the current form of this tool is not in the game.

 

Fixing this could be done by massively reworking the level and enemy design, or by making hipfire effective again. The current situation is particularly absurd since tenno are able to accurately fire much larger, more cumbersome weapons (opticor, for example) from the hip.

[NezuHimeSama]

I think a lot of these are good ideas, but I don't see why guaranteed crits is such a good pair for snipers. They're hitscan, accurate, and infinite range. Guaranteed crits is the domain of projectiles, arcing explosives, and short range novelty weapons. I haven't had any issues with the DPS of vectis, and prior to the sniper nerf, it was my go-to primary despite it's terrible ammo economy.

 

IMO, vectis doesn't need a 40% crit rate at all, and would do just fine to stay at 25%. Maybe 30%, 35% tops. 40% base crit would be OP.

Other snipers, however, I could see benefiting from crit buff due to low mag capacity and long reloads, but since it seems like you're proposing that change as well...

 

For depleted reload, the entire point was to reduce Vectis Prime to a 1bullet mag, which is actually a buff, as the 2bullet mag messes with reload mechanics of the weapon. To that end, I feel it needs to be over 50% mag capacity reduction, or it gimps Vectis P completely. However, I think it aught to have had a 60% reload speed improvement, as it's currently just a nerfed Primed Fast Hands that prevents Vectis P from being a full upgrade over Vectis rather than being a proper tradeoff for big benefit corrupted mod like it should be.

[Terrornaut]

The combo mechanic is sort of cool but wasn't really necessary.  I just want snipers to be able to punch through nullifier bubbles. I'd probably use them (well, aside from using my lanka with Ivara).  I was in tonight's infested interception ele resistance sortie where the entire team (and myself included lol) forgot to swap our ele loadouts out.  Having someone with a sniper to take out those parasite chargers would have been amazing, but, even as Ember, I still managed to melt most things. Ember don't care bout your ele resistance.

 

But again, just making them high profile target killers is all we want.  Lanka and Vectis aside, are snipers worth anything at all, pre or post rework?

[Azamagon]

1) I think a lot of these are good ideas, but I don't see why guaranteed crits is such a good pair for snipers. They're hitscan, accurate, and infinite range. Guaranteed crits is the domain of projectiles, arcing explosives, and short range novelty weapons. I haven't had any issues with the DPS of vectis, and prior to the sniper nerf, it was my go-to primary despite it's terrible ammo economy.

 

IMO, vectis doesn't need a 40% crit rate at all, and would do just fine to stay at 25%. Maybe 30%, 35% tops. 40% base crit would be OP.

Other snipers, however, I could see benefiting from crit buff due to low mag capacity and long reloads, but since it seems like you're proposing that change as well...

 

2) For depleted reload, the entire point was to reduce Vectis Prime to a 1bullet mag, which is actually a buff, as the 2bullet mag messes with reload mechanics of the weapon. To that end, I feel it needs to be over 50% mag capacity reduction, or it gimps Vectis P completely. However, I think it aught to have had a 60% reload speed improvement, as it's currently just a nerfed Primed Fast Hands that prevents Vectis P from being a full upgrade over Vectis rather than being a proper tradeoff for big benefit corrupted mod like it should be.

1) Because they are also slowfiring, lowmagazined, non-AoE weapons, which is the more important part of why reliable critical hits fit on them. I mean, you also have weapons like the Latrons, they are also hitscan, accurate and infinite range, but they don't need that buff, because they have decent rate of fire and moderate magsize. It makes a world of difference.

And really, you mentioned DPS when speaking of Snipers? That's not really what Snipers are about, they are about reliably killing priority targets from a long distance.

 

2) I know why it exists, just remember that Depleted Reload doesn't need to have a 50% mag reduction for it to half the magsize of the Vectis Prime. It only needs to be more than a 25% mag reduction to half the magsize, due to numbers rounding. With, say, 30% mag reduction, your Vectis P is gonna have a magsize of 1,4 which is then rounded down to 1, thus still doing its job. Lowering Depleted Reload so it still halfs Vectis P's magsize, but also doesn't overly reduce other weapon's magsizes seems like a reasonable change to me. Otherwise the mod could simply say it is just for Vectis Prime and nothing else. That bandaid mod's existence needs to be justified in other weapons too.

 

As far as mods go in general, they need a HUGE rebalancing anyway. But that discussion is for a different thread, so I'm not gonna delve into discussing that mod deeper than that :)

Edited December 20, 2015 by Azamagon

[CheetoDave]

The Sniper update finally got me off sniper rifles. I've been using the Vectis since I discovered it. I finally started rebuilding it when I realized DE was going to leave Vectis Prime as its gimpy little brother.
Unfortunately, the inability to noscope, quickscope, as well as the inclusion of scopesway was enough to finally get me to quit using snipers. DE doesn't care about us, and obviously doesn't understand how to include it in the game. Switch to Shotguns or bows, kids. It's easier than trying to fix something they don't care about.

[Swailwort]

(My ideas are listed further down if you don't wanna read my reasoning)

Unfortunately, the Sniper rework didn't actually help them much. In fact, they are pretty much off WORSE than before the rework (due to the hipfire accuracy nerf).

I see a lot of people saying that the only true way to fix snipers would be to change the game around them... While a legit suggestion, think about this:

Which is easier; to change the game so snipers fit somewhere, or to change snipers to fit the game in general?

Also, further think about this: Why do Bows and the Battle Rifles (such as Latrons) work well, despite the game being a hordemode game?

Well, stuff like quick reloads, guaranteed crits, punchthrough and ragdoll death for bows, and decent rate of fire and relatively large magazines in the case of the battle rifles, and for both weapontypes alike non-obstructive aiming and good hipfire accuracy, THAT is why they still work well in this hordemode game while ALSO being great at taking out heavier units.

And well, the Sniper rework addressed NOTHING in this regard. Snipers are still horrible in reload:magazine ratio, no guaranteed crits (except for Lanka with max zoom), no punchthrough (except for Snipetron(s) and Lanka which already had it) or anything similar can be found in the rework. Just a non-inspired combo mechanic (which already exists on melee btw), scope bonuses that makes zooming into another statboost instead of keeping zooming as a utility which it is supposed to be, AND a very unnecessary nerf to hipfiring accuracy...

To be fair though, the rework made the scopes less obstructive and the variable zoom makes them feel really unique. But that's where the uniqueness should've stayed imo. The combo counter and scope bonuses... well, you don't have to overcomplicate things just to make a weapontype feel unique. The bonuses are well intended, sure, but they are not PRACTICAL, nor are they fitting for Snipers.

So, all this blabbering aside, here is how I would re-rework Snipers:

* Remove the combo mechanic entirely (let it stay unique to melee).

* Remove scope bonuses (scoping is a utility in itself, let it stay that way).

* Remove or heavily reduce the scope sway (if necessary for PvP balance, it can be kept to some degree there).

* Restore hipfire accuracy (needing to scope on every shot is very anti-Warframe-pace-friendly).

* Make Snipers and Bows capable of punching holes through nullifier bubbles (gives them a real feel of "heavy target disposer").

* Add variable amounts of innate punchthrough to all Snipers (helping against crowds).

* Possibly add a non-obstructive X-ray vision while scoping (allowing the punchthrough to be used more easily through walls!).

* Increase critchances to 40% minimum for all Snipers (and Bows, except for MK-1 Paris. Reliability is a MUST for these slow weapons).

* Improve magazine-sizes and/or reloadspeeds for all Snipers (to give a bit of help against crowds).

* Give the scoping zooms three different modes: Ironsight, Low Zoom and High Zoom. Ironsight would be similar to using a Bow or Latron and the suggested X-ray would not work in Ironsight mode. Low zoom could be like 3x zoom and High zoom could be around 6x zoom. More zoom is not really needed.

* Possibly also make weaponswap speeds MUCH faster for all weapons (so you can switch to your secondary more quickly, to help with crowds better, for example).

* Improve Depleted Reload a bit, like -42% magsize and +48% reloadspeed and allow it to be used on Snipers, Assault Rifles and Launchers (last part just for funsies :))

Examples of values I'd put on the Snipers:

Vulkar

* 7 magsize (up from 6)

* 2,25 second reload (down from 3)

* 40% critchance and 2x multiplier (up from 20%)

* 175 damage (down from 225, due to guaranteed crits)

* 0,75 meter punchthrough (up from 0)

Snipetron

* Return it to the market! (Maybe give it a laserbeam-effect, instead of a hitscan bullet? Then it would make more sense with the lore etc)

* 5 magsize (up from 4)

* 1,9 second reload (down from 3,5)

* 40% critchance and 2x multiplier (up from 20% and 1,5x)

* 135 damage (down from 175, due to guaranteed crits and increased rate of fire)

* 2 Rate of Fire (up from 1,5)

* Recoil slightly reduced

* 2,5 meter punchthrough (same)

Snipetron Vandal

* 6 magsize (same)

* 1,9 second reload (down from 2)

* 40% critchance and 2x multiplier (up from 25%)

* 150 damage (down from 200, due to guaranteed crits and increased rate of fire)

* 2 Rate of Fire (up from 1,5)

* Recoil slightly reduced

* 3 meter punchthrough (same)

Vectis

* 1 magsize (same)

* 0,9 second reload (same)

* 40% critchance and 2x multiplier (up from 25%)

* 200 damage (down from 225, due to guaranteed crits)

* 1,5 Rate of Fire (same)

* 1,5 meter punchthrough (up from 0)

Vectis Prime

* Either 1 or 2 magsize (depends on Depleted Reload changes and/or if we get weapon exilus slots)

* Either 0,9 second reload (if 2 magsize) or 0,8 second reload (if 1 magsize)

* 40% critchance and 2x multiplier (up from 25%)

* 225-ish damage (down from 325, due to guaranteed crits and Charged/Primed Chamber being more viable depending on magsize or Exilus slots being changed/added)

* 3 Rate of Fire (up from 1,5 which helps with refiring and empty-mag-autoreloading-delay)

* 2 meter punchthrough (up from 0)

Lanka

* 10 magsize (same)

* 2 second reload (same)

* 40% critchance and 2x multiplier (up from 25%)

* 300-ish damage (down from 525, due to guaranteed crits)

* 1 Rate of Fire (same)

* Now has "autocharging". Whenever you are not shooting, Lanka autocharges to empower its next shot. This can be interrupted at any time to fire weaker shots (similar to now). Fire rate mods still affects the charging time.

* 5 meter punchthrough (same)

* Could need a now weapon model too, if Snipetron is to return.

Rubico

* 10 magsize (up from 5)

* 2,5 second reload (down from 3)

* 40% critchance and 2,5x multiplier (up from 25% and down from 3x)

* 140 damage (down from 200, due to guaranteed crits and the high critmultiplier)

* 1,75 Rate of Fire (up from 1,5)

* 0,5 meter punchthrough (up from 0)

This would give all of them some different styles (besides their differences in damagetypes)

* Vulkar is the "average" sniper, with only low punchthrough as a bit of a weakness

* Snipetron family is the quickest and "spammiest" of the Snipers, with high punchthrough too, but with weaker shots and smaller mags to compensate

* Vectis family is overall one of the more powerful ones, but has its small magazinesize slowing it down

* Lanka is the most powerful sniper and most punchthrough-y, but has a chargetime to reconsider.

* Rubico is somewhat similarly "spammy" like Snipetron, but with a bigger mag and bigger crits, but a bit slower reload and has the least punchthrough of all snipers.

---------------------

Furthermore, the following weapons are not Snipers, but they could also need tiny buffs (since they have similar issues, but lesser, as snipers):

Grinlok

* 8 or 9 magsize (up from 6)

* 2,25 RoF (up from 1,7)

* 25% critchance (guaranteed crits with Point Strike and Deadly Sequence!) (Note: Grinlok is thus more stable with potentially guaranteed crits, but has less raw and "wild" damage compared to the [Vaykor] Marelok)

Sybaris

* 14 or 16 magsize (up from 10)

* 35% critchance (guaranteed crits with Point Strike and Critical Delay!)

* Alternate fire switches between burstfire and duplex-auto. Thus, you can choose if you always wanna 2-shot burst, or if you want more control over when you shoot the 2 bullets!

Please tell me what you think! :)

I feel it's a nice Idea, but some of the changes should apply to the Opticor as well, specifically the sights, punch through and Nulifier capability. It's raw damage makes up for the crits and the Opticor, coupled with Ivara Prowl Multiplier is able to one shot Level 100 Gunner in a Non Crít Headshot (not broken at all). I mean, it's like 30k base Headshot Damage with Radiation+Headshot Multiplier from Ivara (like 2x)...

Also...Opticor sounds and feels awesome

[Azamagon]

I feel it's a nice Idea, but some of the changes should apply to the Opticor as well, specifically the sights, punch through and Nulifier capability. It's raw damage makes up for the crits and the Opticor, coupled with Ivara Prowl Multiplier is able to one shot Level 100 Gunner in a Non Crít Headshot (not broken at all). I mean, it's like 30k base Headshot Damage with Radiation+Headshot Multiplier from Ivara (like 2x)...

Also...Opticor sounds and feels awesome

Hmm... well, I don't feel the Opticor needs exactly the same treatment. Nullifier bubble piercing, sure, that would be ok by me considering how slow it is unmodded. Punchthrough I don't agreed with though, since it already has AoE. Sights are fine for the Opticor as it is, imo (not that I would mind IF it got scopes, as long as ironsight was one of the scope options, but the problem is that it doesn't seem like it has a scope mounted on it).

 

The Sniper update finally got me off sniper rifles. I've been using the Vectis since I discovered it. I finally started rebuilding it when I realized DE was going to leave Vectis Prime as its gimpy little brother.

Unfortunately, the inability to noscope, quickscope, as well as the inclusion of scopesway was enough to finally get me to quit using snipers. DE doesn't care about us, and obviously doesn't understand how to include it in the game. Switch to Shotguns or bows, kids. It's easier than trying to fix something they don't care about.

Sad to hear that.

 

But I don't wanna give up on Snipers yet (hence this thread in the first place :D ). As saddening as these Sniper-changes are, neither giving up nor accepting the changes by calling them "fine" is gonna help them fix anything, so we need to speak up in constructive ways! :)

[Swailwort]

The Sniper update finally got me off sniper rifles. I've been using the Vectis since I discovered it. I finally started rebuilding it when I realized DE was going to leave Vectis Prime as its gimpy little brother.

Unfortunately, the inability to noscope, quickscope, as well as the inclusion of scopesway was enough to finally get me to quit using snipers. DE doesn't care about us, and obviously doesn't understand how to include it in the game. Switch to Shotguns or bows, kids. It's easier than trying to fix something they don't care about.

Use Opticor, it's the best sniper rifle in the game. Hitscan, ridiculous damage, can viably use Heavy Caliber without @(*()$ it up, has a little AoE, can noscope and...even though it lacks sniper scope, it's much better without it.

Also...It's a BFG. That sounds and feels awesome.