Damage, shields, mods, enemies, and you.

[KGeddon]

This is pretty sweet. Any idea how bosses work with this stuff? I figure it goes without saying that freezing will be sweet on most. Any idea about armor pen and such?

Bosses would have multipliers/resistances, possibly "copy pasta'ed" from other similar types. Freeze is not something you equip for damage, even against shielded enemies. Nothing currently has a weakness to it, so it's only good for hitting blue(and since EVERYTHING else is 1x vs blue and freeze is only 2x vs blue, it's largely irrelevant. There just isn't enough shield in the game to merit it). You should equip freeze if you want the slowing secondary effect.

edit::I suppose I should note that the way things work, if you only equip one elemental damage mod(instead of a damage mod), your total damage will remain the same(just converting a portion of your damage from normal to an element). If you equip multiple elemental damage mods, the total numerical value of your damage will be less. That's why I don't use freeze. I don't need the slow effect, and I like big numbers all the time.

Edited January 22, 2013 by KGeddon

[wasniahC]

I suppose it depends on the boss, but "only" 2x blue? Well, there's a hell of a lot of blue to take down on the harder bosses, is there not? Wouldn't say freeze is good for dps purposes on non-bosses though. Can imagine it helping on things like vay hek, who otherwise has ridiculous shield, especially since it applies the frost damage (double to shield) before the normal damage, removing shield so you can DPS him properly.

I guess it's a sensible guess that it copies the rest from similar types, yeah

Edited January 23, 2013 by wasniahC

[SlickpowderBoss]

THis is very impressive. Thank you very much :)

[Cyler]

Crewman-armored EVERYWHERE. Armor ignoring melee does full damage. Staggered by lightning

Head immune to normal, AP=2000%, Fire=100%, Freeze=200%, Lightning = 400%

Body 81%-(.5%/lvl), AP=100%, Fire=33%-?%/lvl(damage too low to say) Freeze=75% - .33%/lvl Lightning=160% - 1%/lvl

2000%? Typo or foreal?

[Turbine]

It's EHP. /facepalm.

It's nearly standart way to have matigation with deminishing returns.

You matigations is:

ARMOR / (100 + ARMOR)

[KGeddon]

2000%? Typo or foreal?

Real. AP damage x20.

Edited January 23, 2013 by KGeddon

[Expletive]

I suppose I should note that the way things work, if you only equip one elemental damage mod(instead of a damage mod), your total damage will remain the same(just converting a portion of your damage from normal to an element). If you equip multiple elemental damage mods, the total numerical value of your damage will be less. That's why I don't use freeze. I don't need the slow effect, and I like big numbers all the time.

But what happens if you have over 100% in elemental damage mods?

[Cyler]

Alright, now that we have that cleared, what is AP damage?

[KGeddon]

Alright, now that we have that cleared, what is AP damage?

Armor Piercing.

[KGeddon]

But what happens if you have over 100% in elemental damage mods?

Here's how you calculate elemental damage:

Level 30 gorgon, 3 "+25% freeze damage" mods, 2 "+25 Lightning damage"

Base damage is 25. You have 5 damage nodes unlocked, each worth +10%

25 * 1.1 = 27.5

27.5 *1.1 =30.25

30.25*1.1=33.275

33.725*1.1=36.6025

36.6025*1.1=40.26275

You do 40.26275 normal damage per shot

You have no normal damage mods.

Now you calculate your elemental mods

"+25% freeze" 40.26275*1.25=10.0656875

"+25% freeze" 40.26275*1.25=10.0656875

"+25% freeze" 40.26275*1.25=10.0656875

"+25% lightning" 40.26275*1.25=10.0656875

"+25% lightning" 40.26275*1.25=10.0656875

This gives you a total of 30.19 freeze damage and 20.13 lightning damage

Each hit will apply 40 normal damage, 30 freeze damage, and 20 lightning damage(Assuming you do not crit. If you do, you will multiply any damage by 2.2, which is the crit damage multiplier with all the crit damage nodes and no extra crit damage mods. If you use crit damage mods you would adjust the crit damage multiplier accordingly.)

edit:Wasn't completely clear. Notice how each elemental mod is the same? Normal damage mods/upgrade tree nodes act as they do because you take the product from one and apply it as a factor in the next mod. An elemental mod is calculated off your normal damage after you're done, but the two factors are your normal damage and the mod, then the product of all your elemental mods are added together.

This is your choice. While you may have a lower total damage(normal+elemental), you CAN make up for that by hitting things that give your elemental damage multipliers(or use them to hit things that reduce/ignore normal damage). If you make a garbage can 4 element build so you never have to deal with the upgrade screen, expect to see quite a bit less damage being dealt.

Edited January 23, 2013 by KGeddon

[7cNickel]

Hey, can you take a look at how the different melee attacks work? I've heard that +melee doesn't help your charged attacks at all for instance.

[KGeddon]

Hey, can you take a look at how the different melee attacks work? I've heard that +melee doesn't help your charged attacks at all for instance.

It doesn't. Charge damage only affects your charged attacks, and "melee damage" affects everything else.

[KGeddon]

So they changed the way damae works in the patch today.

Damage mods are now additive, tree nodes are still multiplicative.

1)take your weapon base damage(30)

2)Multiply by tree nodes(base*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1=48). This is your modified base

3)Add up your damage mods percentage(2 +25% damage mods=+50%)

4)Multiply your modified base times your damage mod percentage plus 100%(48*1.5=72). This is your total normal damage.

5)Total up your elemental mods(2 +25% Lightning and 1 +25% freeze=+50% lightning and +25% freeze)

6)Apply your elemental damage mod totals to your total normal damage(72*.5=36 lightning, 72*.25=18 freeze)

7)Each hit will apply 72 normal, 36 lightning, and 18 freeze damage in this example.

Under these rules, damage mods are always weaker than the elemental damage weakness of the faction you are fighting, except in the case of using 1 damage mod to increase the effect of 4 roughly equivalent elemental mods(Since elemental mods work off your total damage, they will recover the "cost" of placing a damage mod instead of an elemental mod) Past 1, you simply replace elemental damage with normal damage(elemental is more effective pound for pound and with the decrease to normal damage mods, just as plentiful)

The only exception would be the infested, as you know fire mods are rare. There really isn't an answer there.

I'm going to adapt, but I don't have to agree.

Edited January 24, 2013 by KGeddon

[Kalara]

Hey KGeddon,

So you are saying now it's better to use elemental damage mods over normal damage mods? (on the condition you switch out the elemental damage specifically for the elemental weakness of the faction you are facing).

Just making sure I understand what you are saying :)

[Cyler]

Yes, that's what he means.

[wasniahC]

Damage mods are now additive, tree nodes are still multiplicative.

1)take your weapon base damage(30)

2)Multiply by tree nodes(base*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1=48). This is your modified base

3)Add up your damage mods percentage(2 +25% damage mods=+50%)

4)Multiply your modified base times your damage mod percentage plus 100%(48*1.5=72). This is your total normal damage.

Any idea how this works with melee damage mods for warframes?

I'm guessing it either goes one of two ways:

1. weapon nodes x (melee weapon mods + warframe melee mods)

2. weapon nodes x melee weapon mods + warframe melee mods

[KGeddon]

Any idea how this works with melee damage mods for warframes?

I'm guessing it either goes one of two ways:

1. weapon nodes x (melee weapon mods + warframe melee mods)

2. weapon nodes x melee weapon mods + warframe melee mods

Melee damage mod is a melee damage mod. Unless they program in a specific relationship(and they did not, I checked) you'd treat a +75% volt melee damage mod no different than a +75% fragor damage mod

So calculate it the same. Apply upgrade nodes for modified base. Add up normal damage % and apply to modified base to get total normal damage. Add up elemental damage % and apply to your total normal damage.

Edited January 24, 2013 by KGeddon

[KGeddon]

Hey KGeddon,

So you are saying now it's better to use elemental damage mods over normal damage mods? (on the condition you switch out the elemental damage specifically for the elemental weakness of the faction you are facing).

Just making sure I understand what you are saying :)

That is correct.

Previously, the damage mods were multiplicative. They were worth more individually if you chose to fill more slots with them. This was a good thing. Normal damage gets mitigated by heavily by armor. This did have the undesirable effect of making all numbers higher. Could have been solved with numbers tweaks.

Currently, damage mods are additive. Since they exist at the same percentage value as elemental mods, elemental mods against faction weaknesses are far far far better. Let us take the humble lightning mod and a Latron(level 30, 48 damage).

If you put in 4 +25% damage mods and 1 +25% lightning mod, you will 96 normal damage and 24 lightning.

If you used 4 +25% lightning mods and a +25% freeze mod, you would do 48 normal and 48 lightning, and 12 freeze.

Due to the fact that lightning is always at least as effective as normal damage and the freeze makes up for the slightly lower total damage number(everything but freeze is 1x vs shields) versus shields, you would always do more damage. This change turned the build game into an arsenal game, where you stack as many faction specific elemental weakness mods as possible.

This situation will change once they change their numbers(They noted that they simply changed the relationships in prep for numbers changes). Depending on the numbers, it may continue on as now.

[Kalara]

awesome, I totally understood that, thank you!

[KGeddon]

awesome, I totally understood that, thank you!

NP. Recommend that if you know you won't be carrying a briefcase(and don't run out of ammo all the time on your primary) you stock a secondary loaded out for AP when stacking fire/lightning on your primary. This will help if you run into a multi-faction complication.

[LostMK]

fire staggers grineer and corpus

they are humanoids and they are on fire

think about it

Edited January 24, 2013 by LostMK

[Expletive]

How does the Bolto work with this? It ignores Armor so is it's damage completely armor piercing damage or is it just Normal damage that ignores armor?

[KGeddon]

fire staggers grineer and corpus

they are humanoids and they are on fire

think about it

Too bad fire stagger only works on infested, and lightning stagger only works on corpus. We're not thinking about it. We're testing and evaluating results in this science oriented facility.

[KGeddon]

How does the Bolto work with this? It ignores Armor so is it's damage completely armor piercing damage or is it just Normal damage that ignores armor?

Melee weapons that ignore armor only apply that benefit to normal damage. Fire/Freeze/Lightning damage is still mitigated by armor. I don't have a bolto, but I'd be suprised if it works any differently.

Edited January 24, 2013 by KGeddon

[Roujou]

Good post, thanks for the info.

One remaining question - How does Crit Chance stack?

If you don't know and would like to test it, I suggest doing so with the Snipetron, as it seems to have the highest base crit chance (I think.)