Damage, shields, mods, enemies, and you.

[KGeddon]

Good post, thanks for the info.

One remaining question - How does Crit Chance stack?

If you don't know and would like to test it, I suggest doing so with the Snipetron, as it seems to have the highest base crit chance (I think.)

That is a good question, but testing that would take a very large sample size simply because the random number generator is random.

[Roujou]

That is a good question, but testing that would take a very large sample size simply because the random number generator is random.

Indeed.

Well, just thought I'd ask. As it is now, it seems like the values are additive as far as mods go, but Obviously I can't say for sure, as I haven't the time or the patience to test it.

[HanShotFirst]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but for the mathematically un-inclined, which is preferable? Health mods or Armor mods?

For example, I have a +40 health mod and a +40% armor mod... which would give me the most bang for my buck? Furthermore, if I have two +40 health mods and two +40% armor mods, would I be better off slotting one health and one armor, both health mods, or both armor mods?

And last but not least, how do Shield mods factor in? I've been favoring armor/health mods since the health pool doesn't regenerate (under normal circumstances anyhow), but is that a mistake?

Thanks!

[Expletive]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but for the mathematically un-inclined, which is preferable? Health mods or Armor mods?

For example, I have a +40 health mod and a +40% armor mod... which would give me the most bang for my buck? Furthermore, if I have two +40 health mods and two +40% armor mods, would I be better off slotting one health and one armor, both health mods, or both armor mods?

And last but not least, how do Shield mods factor in? I've been favoring armor/health mods since the health pool doesn't regenerate (under normal circumstances anyhow), but is that a mistake?

Thanks!

Since the formula for armor mitigation 100/(100+Armor), this means that each point of armor effectively increases your health by 1%.

EDIT: I think some of my Math was wrong, so I snipped the whole huge paragraph.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Expletive

[HanShotFirst]

Since the formula for armor mitigation 100/(100+Armor), this means that each point of armor effectively increases your health by 1%.

So...

Using the previous example, assuming I'm starting with base 100 health, two +40% armor mods would (effectively) yield 180 health, or 196 health? (Is it 100 x 1.8 or 100 x 1.4 x 1.4?)

Again, thanks and apologies for being dense. :P

[KGeddon]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but for the mathematically un-inclined, which is preferable? Health mods or Armor mods?

For example, I have a +40 health mod and a +40% armor mod... which would give me the most bang for my buck? Furthermore, if I have two +40 health mods and two +40% armor mods, would I be better off slotting one health and one armor, both health mods, or both armor mods?

And last but not least, how do Shield mods factor in? I've been favoring armor/health mods since the health pool doesn't regenerate (under normal circumstances anyhow), but is that a mistake?

Thanks!

Base armor is 50(+50%EHP). Each of those armor mods is worth 20 armor(Increases your EHP by 20%).

Base health(assuming maxed warframe) is 200, leading to a base EHP of 300.

Add 1 health mod(240hp*1.5), you have 360 EHP(increase of 60)

Add 1 armor mod(200hp*1.7), you have340 EHP(increase of 40)

Add both(240*1.7), you have 408EHP(increase of 108)

If you were to add all 4(280*1.9), you have 532 EHP(increase of 232)

232 EHP vs Maybe +160 shields.

It's a tough choice, and it's pretty much all up to you. The purpose of health is to "not die" when taking fire.

Your shields go down! OH CRAP! EVASIVE MANEUVERS! GET TO DA CHOPPAH!

Now it's you're racing against your waterfalling HP indicator. It's goin down, and cover is 15m away. You pack enough armor/hp to make it?

edit::One thing to note though. As the health restores are fixed value, armor is preferred in actual gameplay for recovery purposes. Meaning if you pop a large health restore, you'll restore more of your "safety cushion"

editedit::2 +40% armor mods at 100 health would take you from 100*1.5=150 EHP, to 100*1.9=190 EHP. However, armor increases in value slightly as you get more HP, and Health increases in value slightly as armor increases. Mix 'em.

Edited January 25, 2013 by KGeddon

[Expletive]

Oh man, I spent so long editing my post I missed two more posts.

[bigmerc88]

I think this post is going to be my new homepage. Thank you so much for the great information! I was in the process of compiling damage mitigation from armor when I accidentally stumbled upon this thread. So far my numbers match up to yours, though I found that corpus plasma guns and some bosses tend to have some armor penetration. As far as effective HP vs actual health, I have found that while the numbers may support health, actual gameplay seems to favor damage mitigation over bullet sponging. Unless of course you have a truly incredible Trinity pilot. Though I'm fairly certain the Trinity is a myth.

Edited January 25, 2013 by bigmerc88

[KGeddon]

I think this post is going to be my new homepage. Thank you so much for the great information! I was in the process of compiling damage mitigation from armor when I accidentally stumbled upon this thread. So far my numbers match up to yours, though I found that corpus plasma guns and some bosses tend to have some armor penetration. As far as effective HP vs actual health, I have found that while the numbers may support health, actual gameplay seems to favor damage mitigation over bullet sponging. Unless of course you have a truly incredible Trinity pilot. Though I'm fairly certain the Trinity is a myth.

Corpus crewmembers burst fire. Makes it difficult to see each shots damage. And we haven't conclusively proved that you actually have a head hitbox, it's just that sometimes the level 1 sawmen do a 50 damage hit instead of 100 when you are moving(possibly indicating they didn't hit your head and that is what the "critically hits" means in their description)

[Expletive]

OK, my last post had some incorrect math in it, so I scrapped it and started over.

I made a spreadsheet on Google Docs about effective Health

I'm still working on it, so it may change later, but it looks like the most optimal arrangement of +70% armor mods and +75% HP mods is 3 Armor, 5 health, with an EHP of 1466, which is only slightly higher than 4/4 with an EHP of 1450

[HanShotFirst]

You guys are awesome! Thank you so much!

[Expletive]

@KGeddon:

I added enemy damage zones to the spreadsheet. I just kind of copied what was in your initial post though. I'd add the level scaling, but I don't really know how it's supposed to work. If you could give a better explanation I'll add a box that will scale all values for that level.

[KGeddon]

@KGeddon:

I added enemy damage zones to the spreadsheet. I just kind of copied what was in your initial post though. I'd add the level scaling, but I don't really know how it's supposed to work. If you could give a better explanation I'll add a box that will scale all values for that level.

The numbers didn't look right because they're probably adding armor per level(using EHP) and I was only doing 100 damage per shot. That number means the results were being affected by rounding pretty heavily. Any notation of per level means they roughly gain that much mitigation per level(1.3 x 25 levels = ~32.5% extra normal damage mitigation) They're linear and very rough as I knew I couldn't give a good real equation with so much inaccuracy on the observable damage.

Edited January 25, 2013 by KGeddon

[Expletive]

The numbers didn't look right because they're probably adding armor per level(using EHP) and I was only doing 100 damage per shot. That number means the results were being affected by rounding pretty heavily. Any notation of per level means they roughly gain that much mitigation per level(1.3 x 25 levels = ~32.5% extra normal damage mitigation) They're linear and very rough as I knew I couldn't give a good real equation with so much inaccuracy on the observable damage.

Since they're Linear does that mean that enemies gain immunity to some damage types at very high levels? Because, for example, at level 45, ancients body/head's scaling reduces the % to below 0.

[KGeddon]

Since they're Linear does that mean that enemies gain immunity to some damage types at very high levels? Because, for example, at level 45, ancients body/head's scaling reduces the % to below 0.

No, the numbers I put up are linear. The armor/EHP investigation started after the damage dealt investigation. Once I proved that EHP is being used, I had to figure that enemies were using it too. The linear numbers are just a rough number and get screwed up by fantastically high level enemies. Using EHP, the amount of %mitigation per armor point is lower the more armor you accumulate(this is where people mistakently conclude armor gives diminishing returns. It doesn't, as it still gives similar EHP. The %mitigation is just a sideshow). It's also hard to tell because of rounding yo.

[Expletive]

@KGeddon

So you're saying that the Enemy ALSO uses EHP formula for their defense?

[KGeddon]

@KGeddon

So you're saying that the Enemy ALSO uses EHP formula for their defense?

Fits with the raw numbers I took(TBH honest, it isn't really apparent unless you include mobs with levels in the 50s. Latron is hard enough to get to 100 normal damage, had to level up my snipetron). I'll have to go through and retake all the datapoints due to the multiplicative/additive armor change to check that as well.

[Kobalt]

Armor ignoring melee weapons ignore all reductions for the normal damage they apply

For the record which weapons are these?

[KGeddon]

For the record which weapons are these?

Fragor, Furax, Bo staff.

Edited January 28, 2013 by KGeddon

[Kobalt]

Don't know if it's the case, but I've been messing with the Dark Dagger and the charge on it always seems to yield the 75 base charge damage and crits for 150...Regardless of their armor! I was wondering if it's unique to the weapon or if all charges are that way.

The dagger is new with basically no levels or mods in it that improvethe charge. I also notice that the damage seems funny on the regular melee in regards to armor [damage feels excessive on low armor targets and really low on high armor targets]. Was wondering if you knew anything about it.

Also, thanks for making this thread! I started looking for all of this info today and I found it all in one nice convenient place!

After this my only questions with involve Ash's Blade storm and if it actually scales with your melee weapon or does fixed damage.

[KGeddon]

Don't know if it's the case, but I've been messing with the Dark Dagger and the charge on it always seems to yield the 75 base charge damage and crits for 150...Regardless of their armor! I was wondering if it's unique to the weapon or if all charges are that way.

The dagger is new with basically no levels or mods in it that improvethe charge. I also notice that the damage seems funny on the regular melee in regards to armor [damage feels excessive on low armor targets and really low on high armor targets]. Was wondering if you knew anything about it.

Also, thanks for making this thread! I started looking for all of this info today and I found it all in one nice convenient place!

After this my only questions with involve Ash's Blade storm and if it actually scales with your melee weapon or does fixed damage.

No, that behavior is not unique to the dark dagger.

And as to the ash frame blade storm. I don't use ash. It'd logically have a base and then increasing damage by picking up the 2 upgrade tree nodes(with nothing to do with your weapon), but I can't say. That's something people should test on their own(this is stuff I did for my own personal benefit and shared, I'm not a DE employee)

[nanogenesis]

I have a noob question, on melee dmg.

First of all, the Damage nodes in the upgrade tree, are they still being calculated multiplicatively or is it additive?

Now second, I stacked 74,70,73% melee dmg mods on my WF,

24.5% melee dmg, 25% x4 AP, 24.5% freeze, 24.4% elec

This is on Cronus, which is fully upgraded, lvl30, supercharged.

Now how much of melee dmg am I actually doing?

A note, I tried stacked 5x 40% melee dmg mods more on my WF, and all 24.5% melee dmg modes on Cronus, and the results were simply not good. There seems to be a hard cap somewhere I think.

a) I still can't 1hit kO a lvl55 guy on pluto (I wanted to, just for fun)

b) those lvl55 grineers take only 48dmg from this lol

Then I stacked 10% crit chance upto 70%, which resulted in only 98dmg on lvl55 grineer.

This makes me think that AP is compulsory on melee, but to what degree I wonder?

Like if the AP can be calculated after applying the melee dmg mods on my WF, then the numbers are gonna be huge.

Lastly I noticed the normal crewmen are around 35-45, but in alert missions they are 55. We need more perfect lvl55 guys, especially grineers for more testing.

P.S. when I say 1 hit kill, I mean 1 swing, not 1 charge.

[Cyler]

First of all, the Damage nodes in the upgrade tree, are they still being calculated multiplicatively or is it additive?

Upgrade Tree = Multiplicative --> BaseDMG * 1.1^5

Mods = Additive --> (Base DMG * 1.1^5) * (1 + 0.74 + 0.70 + 0.73)

I calculated the DMG mods as "normal DMG" because I'm too lazy to find out all the elemental effects on each enemy, sorry :)

Grineers are armored, so (normal) damage gets divided by 3 unless you hit the head.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Cyler

[KGeddon]

35*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1(4 melee damage nodes)=51.24

51.24*3.415(241.5% total melee damage mods)=174.98 normal damage(rounds to 174)

174.98*1(100% total Armor Piercing mods)=174 AP damage

174.98*.245(24.5% total freeze mods)=42 freeze damage

174.98*.244(24.4% total electrical mods)=42 electrical damage

Each hit will apply 174 normal damage, 174 AP damage, 42 freeze damage, and 42 electrical damage. The damage numbers you see will be mitigated due to armor and resistances/weaknesses.

So each hit you should see 4 numbers(Zero damage numbers do not display. So if you hit something immune to a particular type of damage, you won't see a number for that type). Grineer troopers/lancers are resistant to freeze, electrical, fire, and normal damage when hitting their bodies due to their armor. Any of these will recieve heavy percentage mitigation. AP should always work as a flat multiplier(1.5x when hitting a grineer trooper/lancer body, so it should always show as 261 regardless of the grineer trooper/lancers level)

Edited January 29, 2013 by KGeddon

[nanogenesis]

35*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1(4 melee damage nodes)=51.24

51.24*3.415(241.5% total melee damage mods)=174.98 normal damage(rounds to 174)

174.98*1(100% total Armor Piercing mods)=174 AP damage

174.98*.245(24.5% total freeze mods)=42 freeze damage

174.98*.244(24.4% total electrical mods)=42 electrical damage

Each hit will apply 174 normal damage, 174 AP damage, 42 freeze damage, and 42 electrical damage. The damage numbers you see will be mitigated due to armor and resistances/weaknesses.

So each hit you should see 4 numbers(Zero damage numbers do not display. So if you hit something immune to a particular type of damage, you won't see a number for that type). Grineer troopers/lancers are resistant to freeze, electrical, fire, and normal damage when hitting their bodies due to their armor. Any of these will recieve heavy percentage mitigation. AP should always work as a flat multiplier(1.5x when hitting a grineer trooper/lancer body, so it should always show as 261 regardless of the grineer trooper/lancers level)

Thanks for calculating.

Now sometimes when I hit crewmen I see only 137~147 numbers so hence I thought there is a hard cap somewhere.

Sometimes I see a yellow 238 number, and critical 632 red number. Whats the yellow for?

When I hit the General from Earth, it shows 107 only, any clue why this is?