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Damage And Solar System 3.0, What's In It?


Gigaus
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Been out of the loop for awhile, and people keep talking/complaining about both of these. I know about Solar 3.0, but not much about Damage/mods 3.0, and I'm not willing to go through a few hours/days worth of livestreams to figure out what I missed.

 

So the question is, what changes have the devs said will change with Damage 3.0?

 

And have they made any amendments or changes to their plans with Solar 3.0?

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Why would DE need a damage 3.0? where did you even hear of this?

 

They've talked about it. In terms of the removal of damage mods such as Serration, Hornet strike etc. Because with those mods as of now, they are mandatory for builds, without them, you're not going to do much. And some system to where when you level up your weapon, so do the stats. There's not enough info on it. But they do plan to change it somewhat.

 

Also weapon rebalancing

 

No one knows but DE, It's best to keep speculations at bay. You wouldn't want to be disappointed with what you wanted with your speculations.

 

As for the Starchart. Again, speculations. Best to wait. I'm curious to how they handle it.. And the community,

Edited by KJRenz
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Tell that to the people complaining about Second dream shattering their Headcanons. kek

 

At least it settled down. But man.... I haven't seen so much salt and hate in one spot.

 

5.jpg

 

But at least the path is a lot better than it was when it launched.

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They've talked about it. In terms of the removal of damage mods such as Serration, Hornet strike etc. Because with those mods as of now, they are mandatory for builds, without them, you're not going to do much. And some system to where when you level up your weapon, so do the stats. There's not enough info on it. But they do plan to change it somewhat.

 

Also weapon rebalancing

 

No one knows but DE, It's best to keep speculations at bay. You wouldn't want to be disappointed with what you wanted with your speculations.

 

As for the Starchart. Again, speculations. Best to wait. I'm curious to how they handle it.. And the community,

 

Well, what we do know then is they're going to be removing mods, and changing weapons to have a leveling system similar to warframes now, yes? 

 

And the Starchart, last I heard, wasn't speculation. They literally explained the plan step by step, and their reasoning behind it. Unless they've come out and said they're coming out with a new plan, as far as I know they're still set to downsize the starchart drastically. Have they come out and said they've changed the plan?

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Well, what we do know then is they're going to be removing mods, and changing weapons to have a leveling system similar to warframes now, yes? 

 

And the Starchart, last I heard, wasn't speculation. They literally explained the plan step by step, and their reasoning behind it. Unless they've come out and said they're coming out with a new plan, as far as I know they're still set to downsize the starchart drastically. Have they come out and said they've changed the plan?

 

I wasn't talking about the Devs speculation part. I'm talking about other players making stuff up thinking they know what's coming out. Playerbase speculation if you will.

 

And you are correct about the weapon parts. As well as rebalancing them.

Edited by KJRenz
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So the question is, what changes have the devs said will change with Damage 3.0?

To be clear, Damage currently is the division of damage into three physical types, four simple elementals and six combined elementals, plus the fact that every unit in game has different multipliers for any of them.

 

The damage system has never announced to be reworked. We are going to keep these three physical and ten elemental types. This is the Damage system and this has not been in question recently.

 

What is going to be reviewed is the mod system, with the possible removal/rework of "necessary mods" such as Serration. Not what type of damage you do. Merely how much.

 

 

But to whomever says "what is Damage 3.0", I respond: you have understood nothing.

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I wasn't talking about the Devs speculation part. I'm talking about other players making stuff up thinking they know what's coming out. Playerbase speculation if you will.

 

And you are correct about the weapon parts. As well as rebalancing them.

 

Ah fair enough then. I won't speculate on what they'll do, but I will say that it makes me...Nervous when they get up and say they're going to make broad changes like that. So far the changes they've made have either been excellent, or game breaking in a bad way. Nothing in between.

 

I just hope they eventually learn they're never going to 'fix' weapons. Their idea of weapons being 'broken' is in direct conflict with their design philosophy for some time now. On the one hand, they want a tier system where specific weapons are supposed to be better than others, and others worse than others, but for some reason they keep pushing out this 'we don't want people to only use one X weapon, or Y mods.'. They're not going to change that some things are just going to be the best, numerically. Like with the change to melee and coptering. First they tried to make melee weapons more viable, and people still only ended up with one or two weapons. Then they changed copptering so people would stop talking melee weapons only good at copptering. Now people only pick one or two weapons and that's it. It's just exchanging one problem for another. 

 

 

To be clear, Damage currently is the division of damage into three physical types, four simple elementals and six combined elementals, plus the fact that every unit in game has different multipliers for any of them.

 

The damage system has never announced to be reworked. We are going to keep these three physical and ten elemental types. This is the Damage system and this has not been in question recently.

 

What is going to be reviewed is the mod system, with the possible removal/rework of "necessary mods" such as Serration. Not what type of damage you do. Merely how much.

 

 

But to whomever says "what is Damage 3.0", I respond: you have understood nothing.

 

 

Or some of us have only been told 'Damage 3.0 is coming out soon', and got told nothing else...

 

Even still, if they're reworking the mod system again, we can expect a major shift in game play, or none at all. I hope they don't put in more RNG bs. 

Edited by Gigaus
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About the solar map, they are going to make new layout, almost the same as the older one where it's easier to navigate.

Completely wrong. The new Starchart is much more then that.

 

There planning on removing more then half of the current nodes (Originally planned only 20 nodes, But most likely changed)

And completely change the way the void is accessed through temporary Void Rifts. (Still using keys though)

 

Also, Starchart won't be sorted by planets anymore. Instead there will be 4 different sectors on the map with different level scales.

Edited by iLogan
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No one knows.

They've "discussed" it, but nothing is set in stone, and there is no plan for execution as far as we know.

Damage increasing by level is a pretty safe bet, though. Primed point blank is a major problem, if so

 

How? Like, I don't really get why having any of these damage mods is a problem. That's like saying having higher damage weapons is a problem....Of course the higher damaging mods are going to be 'essential', it's a combat game. I keep hearing talk about them removing serration/PB/HS and possibly getting rid of the physical increase mods. What good what that do? 

 

I mean, think about it. If the 'essential' mods are removed, and your weapon's damage is locked in stone by it's level....Then it's not going to be 'essential' mods, it's going to be essential weapons. If a weapon either isn't the highest damage, or fits some kind of 'specialty' like the Torid or Ignis, then it won't get used....For that matter, that's what we already have, but mods like Serration and the like make it so even a S#&$ty gun can have SOME usability. 

 

So...What's the problem with having mods like that? I don't get it....

 

 

Completely wrong. The new Starchart is much more then that.

 

There planning on removing more then half of the current nodes (Originally planned only 20 nodes, But most likely changed)

And completely change the way the void is accessed through temporary Void Rifts. (Still using keys though)

 

Also, Starchart won't be sorted by planets anymore. Instead there will be 4 different sectors on the map with different level scales.

 

From what I remember from what they said, they were basically going with a Payday 2 system, where they'd remove the option to choose whatever mission you want, including the void, and you had to pick from a random selection of 20 nodes that were all time limited. Soon after, I heard they backpedaled away from that because of how bad an idea it was, and how bad the reason they gave for it was. Basically 'people aren't playing some of these missions, and are sick of having too little content.'...And their solution was to reduce the content available to people.

 

That was then, I'm curious what they've said since then to now. Have they mentioned the starchart in dev streams? Beyond just saying 'we're working on the starchart.' Does anyone have specific stream numbers? 

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How? Like, I don't really get why having any of these damage mods is a problem. That's like saying having higher damage weapons is a problem....Of course the higher damaging mods are going to be 'essential', it's a combat game. I keep hearing talk about them removing serration/PB/HS and possibly getting rid of the physical increase mods. What good what that do? 

 

I mean, think about it. If the 'essential' mods are removed, and your weapon's damage is locked in stone by it's level....Then it's not going to be 'essential' mods, it's going to be essential weapons. If a weapon either isn't the highest damage, or fits some kind of 'specialty' like the Torid or Ignis, then it won't get used....For that matter, that's what we already have, but mods like Serration and the like make it so even a S#&$ty gun can have SOME usability. 

 

So...What's the problem with having mods like that? I don't get it....

They're removing mods like serration and hornet strike because they're defacto go-to mods.  The game can literally do without them for that reason alone.  They end up in every single weapon build ever unless you're intentionally gimping yourself.  Chances are multi-shot too.  This means that most weapons in fact only have 6 slots because +damage and multi-shot have zero downsides for huge benefits.  This goes against the very essence of "customization" that modding is intended to bring to Warframe.  

 

The 165% from serration will now be built into weapons as they rank up, or whatever percentile they deem appropriate for a gun.  For all we know, they might just remove that sort of damage growth altogether and scale back enemy statistics to match (and then they can really start working on the smarter AI and challenging enemies y'all think will amount to anything in the game as it is right now.)  The reason everything they've told us are mostly spitballed ideas is because they're experimenting behind the scenes as to which direction is best.  To them, I ask what's the difference between a rank 1 weapon that does 10 damage engaging level 1 baddies with 100 health, and a rank 30 weapon that does 1,000 damage engaging level 30 baddies with 10,000 health?

 

Also, I imagine if they're removing serration, point blank, etc, they're probably going to take a close look at all of the damage mods, mods like hellfire, jolt, sawtooth clip, and nerf or buff as necessary.  A lot of people complain about enemy scaling in endless modes... they're not going to just lock in armor and let players easily kill things up into the 3 hours mark, but if people REALLY want DE to dial back the rampant stat growth of enemies in endless modes (modes where enemies by design are meant to overwhelm the players,) then player power must be reeled in to match.  They want us to be warrior gods, but we're still not meant to be unstoppable.

Edited by Littleman88
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They're removing mods like serration and hornet strike because they're defacto go-to mods.  The game can literally do without them for that reason alone.  They end up in every single weapon build ever unless you're intentionally gimping yourself.  Chances are multi-shot too.  This means that most weapons in fact only have 6 slots because +damage and multi-shot have zero downsides for huge benefits.  This goes against the very essence of "customization" that modding is intended to bring to Warframe.  

 

The 165% from serration will now be built into weapons as they rank up, or whatever percentile they deem appropriate for a gun.  For all we know, they might just remove that sort of damage growth altogether and scale back enemy statistics to match (and then they can really start working on the smarter AI and challenging enemies y'all think will amount to anything in the game as it is right now.)  The reason everything they've told us are mostly spitballed ideas is because they're experimenting behind the scenes as to which direction is best.  To them, I ask what's the difference between a rank 1 weapon that does 10 damage engaging level 1 baddies with 100 health, and a rank 30 weapon that does 1,000 damage engaging level 30 baddies with 10,000 health?

 

Also, I imagine if they're removing serration, point blank, etc, they're probably going to take a close look at all of the damage mods, mods like hellfire, jolt, sawtooth clip, and nerf or buff as necessary.  A lot of people complain about enemy scaling in endless modes... they're not going to just lock in armor and let players easily kill things up into the 3 hours mark, but if people REALLY want DE to dial back the rampant stat growth of enemies in endless modes (modes where enemies by design are meant to overwhelm the players,) then player power must be reeled in to match.  They want us to be warrior gods, but we're still not meant to be unstoppable.

 

Well first off, you said they were spitballing ideas, and I assume you mean out loud either in dev streams or just videos they've done, so could you or someone else list some of these ideas? I know none of them are set in stone, but I'd like to have an idea where their heads have been at. 

 

That said, I....How to put this...If the idea to remove Serr/HS/PB/PP used, then we run into a situation like what we had with Warframes having Powers as mods and having 10 mod slots on your Warframe; The game was balanced around having the system that way. When they removed the 2 mod slots on warframes, it ended up shifting the balance quiet a bit to the point I remember them saying that they'd have to rebalance the enemies and rethink how they'd balance warframes. Partially because it was no longer a question of IF Warframes would have X or Y power, it was now a 100% chance they would at level 30, and partially because they had to remove those 2 'extra' slots which borked a lot of builds that relied on having less than 2 powers. Some of the frames out there were only 'surviving' against the higher end enemies because they had mod combinations that simply weren't possible once the 2 slots were removed....And we're only just now getting back to the point where a few outlying setups are logistically possible with Ex mods. 

 

Now...Apply that to the Damage mod situation. Assume that every weapon from now on has max damage mods for their class. You now have an open slot; What do you put in there? More crit chance or damage? Another Elemental? Rate fire? Status chance? Suddenly removing these essential mods opens up possibilities. Possibilities that weren't planned for, and weren't balanced for. Because of that a new, larger problem arises. No matter which way you look at that situation, it's a direct increase in power, players can do more damage with the same things they already had. So one of two things needs to occur to stop the game from becoming even more trivial. Either some new means of restricting the player's choice has to be introduced, in a soft or hard way, such as new essential mods or simply removing a mod slot, respectively, the enemies need to become stronger to compensate for the greater power the player has, or...Nothing happens, and every level takes a step down in difficulty. 

 

I see what 'problem' is being highlighted here, but...It's not a problem. It's most likely a balancing decision that was made early on and built into the game as a result. Essential mods like Serration and Multishots do limit what you can build into your weapons, and that's probably a way to stop us from making all-powerful weapons with no downside. Invariably, no matter what choice they make, bar them doing nothing to the current system, we're probably going to feel some kind of pinch to make up for the fact that we have an open mod slot. If we have that slot at all. 

 

Though...One thing I'd like to touch on. Two actually. You said they might damage scaling would be built into the gun, and be whatever they deem appropriate...This would be bad if it weren't standardized. If they suddenly changed it so that all weapons of a class no longer followed the same damage progression....We'd probably see a situation where either one class of gun was only used, say only Snipers or only Shotguns, only semi-autos, or full autos, because all the other classes have a gimped curve, or a case where there's no difference in damage, and unique mods like Firestorm or Synt mods determine if a gun is ever used or not. Or worse, a situation like what we had with the soma for the longest time, where there's only one gun in the game, and everything else is a niche weapon. We know from experience that DE wants us to only use specific weapons, and they would probably end up enforcing it with a change like that.

The other thing is adding in 'smarter', 'challanging' AI just...It's not possible with how the game is right now. 'Smarter' would end up being the AI cheating like having a percent change to dodge any attack, or having homing bullets that go around cover [see Napalm], since there's no way for any AI that isn't an adapting AI like what you see in TBSs to scale against player skill and intelligence, and more challenging would end up being mechanics that are either gimmicky, annoying, or out right game breaking. I hear a lot of people wanting a better challenge, and say the Enemies need to be improved-- They already have been, several times. Look at the mechanics that have been added in since Damage 2.0. Ancients now have defensive auras on top of their normal ones, Exterminus/[elites] exist, redone bosses now have some kind of invuln mechanics that make it so some weapons just never effect them, Grinner got Manics that pseudo knock you out and the Drahk Masters that steal your guns, Zenuka, G3, and even a new Stalker was added in. Brusta or whatever Moas were given to the Corpus. For that matter, the new Moas, Nullifiers, and these 'modular' enemies were given to the Corpus just to keep up with the Grinner's two large changes, and still aren't as bad. Infested got 5 new units added, all of which have some kind of gimmick or non-sense mechanic to try and make them more challenging. Even Sorties were added that default puts the enemies at the highest spawning levels without going multiple hours into an endless...AND then buffed them or debuffed us to make it harder. 

 

Not a single one of these, bar Sorties with oversights as far enough to borderline game breaking, even made players slow down. Not a one. The power creep has gotten so high, that...Challenge, outside of those BS Sorties, and hours long endless missions, doesn't exist in this game. It won't for a long time, because to make it truly challenging and skillful, DE would have to redesign the game from the ground up. So...If they do get free time for balancing, I really hope they don't dedicate it to 'making the enemies harder and more challenging.'...Not because I don't want challenging enemies, but because at this point it's a waste of time. 

Edited by Gigaus
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How? Like, I don't really get why having any of these damage mods is a problem. That's like saying having higher damage weapons is a problem....Of course the higher damaging mods are going to be 'essential', it's a combat game. I keep hearing talk about them removing serration/PB/HS and possibly getting rid of the physical increase mods. What good what that do? 

 

I mean, think about it. If the 'essential' mods are removed, and your weapon's damage is locked in stone by it's level....Then it's not going to be 'essential' mods, it's going to be essential weapons. If a weapon either isn't the highest damage, or fits some kind of 'specialty' like the Torid or Ignis, then it won't get used....For that matter, that's what we already have, but mods like Serration and the like make it so even a S#&$ty gun can have SOME usability. 

 

So...What's the problem with having mods like that? I don't get it....

I don't have a problem with them.

I'm saying that if they remove mods like serration, hornet strike, etc., then they would also have to remove a primed item....which could be a problem.

Unless you give back 2-3 legendary cores if it was maxed

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We know absolutely nothing about them as of now. It's just people assuming and working up a storm in their teacups.

 

Well we know the idea is on the table, at the least...Hence why this thread exists. Again, I keep asking people to list dev streams when this stuff was mentioned....It's not a silly joke guys, I really do want to know what dev streams they brought any of this up, could someone do their due diligence and find them? 

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  • 1 month later...

To be clear, Damage currently is the division of damage into three physical types, four simple elementals and six combined elementals, plus the fact that every unit in game has different multipliers for any of them.

 

The damage system has never announced to be reworked. We are going to keep these three physical and ten elemental types. This is the Damage system and this has not been in question recently.

 

What is going to be reviewed is the mod system, with the possible removal/rework of "necessary mods" such as Serration. Not what type of damage you do. Merely how much.

 

 

But to whomever says "what is Damage 3.0", I respond: you have understood nothing.

REMOVE mods like serration? i maxed mine out and if they remove it i am NOT gonna be happy. i put a lot of cores and credits into that mod for it to max out. You know what other mods are important? ammo mutation mods for ammo inefficient guns, like the twin grakatas and the soma prime, i might flip a few tables if they remove it from the game. Unless they are installing those mods right in to the gun without taking a slot. But again how would it work? say if serration would be installed to your gun and you gotta maxed out one, would they install a max out serration on your gun or something totally different?

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