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January 15Th Community Hot Topics!


[DE]Drew
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Community Hot Topics!  

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Community Hot Topics are back for 2016! In December, we decided to hold off posting Hot Topics threads until all platforms had The Second Dream because of the potential for spoilers. Now that everyone is more or less up to speed, we’re ready to discuss what’s popular in the Warframe community. 
 
If you’re new to the Community Hot Topics, this is a thread we aim to do bimonthly that discusses some of the hottest issues/ideas/questions from the community. The Community Hot Topics don’t necessarily reflect what’s in development, but they can play a role in development decisions from time to time. The Community Hot Topics is only a portion of what’s going on in the Warframe community and is not an exhaustive list of hot topics. With that said, let’s look at this week’s hot topics!
 
Sortie rewards & proposed token system:
The Sortie system is meant to challenge players and offer compelling rewards. The source threads for this topic are full of feedback on how to improve those rewards to make them more desirable. Sorties are still being polished, and
discussed a possible Token System to avoid unwanted reward repetition. Check out the details in the spoiler:

Sortie
• The plan is to introduce a Token System
• You will obtain Tokens from each individual Sortie mission, with more Tokens from the second and even more from the third
• You will trade these Tokens to an NPC - possibly Maroo - for Sortie rewards that require building
• Some rewards - such as the Fusion Core packs - will still be obtained just for completing Sorties
• Endless Sortie missions might be compressed a bit so they won't be as long
• Sortie Defense might be changed to have an NPC defense point rather than the pod - the Grineer Bailiff from the old Tac Alert
(Thank you, AM-Bunny, for the overview)

 
What are your thoughts on the current Sortie rewards and how do you feel about the proposed change to a Token system? Please, post your comments below!
 
Source threads:

 
 
Trading & Maroo’s Bazaar:
If Maroo becomes the Token vendor, as mentioned in the previous topic, her Bazaar would become a hotspot for more than just trading, but how do you feel about the Bazaar currently? Do you use it for trading often, and if so, do you like it? Are there any changes you would make? A lot of players have suggested the idea of an Auction House to list items, but what do you think would be the best way to implement it in Maroo’s Bazaar? What kind of limitations, if any, should it have? 
 
Source threads:

 
 
New Login System & Rewards:
Like the Sortie Rewards, the new Login Reward system arrived fresh with Update 18. Although it hasn’t been around long enough for players to unlock some of the long-term rewards, what is your impression of the daily rewards so far? Do you find them generally useful? Are there specific rewards that you do not like getting or that you’ve gotten too many times? Are there certain rewards that you could never get enough of? What would you add or change about the login rewards to make them better? Please, post your thoughts below or in the source threads!
 
Note: We’re planning to change the rewards so that players will not receive already mastered weapons. 
 
Source threads:

 
 
Stance Mods:
The source thread for this topic is a big megathread of discussion about Vulpine Mask and Stance mods in general. One of the biggest issues is the acquisition of Stance mods, especially as more Stances are added to the game. Rebecca already commented that “something” is in the works (you can see the details in the spoilers below), but what do you think would be the best way to acquire Stance mods? How would you make it fair and challenging? Do you think that acquiring Stances should be tied to weapons in some way? Could they be earned? What other ideas can you come up with? Post your thoughts in this thread or in the source thread below!


I'll be frank and say this is a problem that grows with each Stance we add, and an acquisition change is certainly welcome. After discussions this morning about Vulpine Mask, I was made aware of plans to change Stance acquisition from set drop tables on enemies to something else, but the debate is too fluid to discuss specifics at large right now. However, there is a Dev Workshop being started as we find out more about this potential change. As with everything, this is such an early development it may take a while to discuss specifics, but it is important to me to let everyone know that we're at the point of discussing a new Stance drop system.

 
Source thread:

 
(Special thanks to SonicSonedit for the list of topic suggestions)
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IMO the Baazar needs some unique stuff, such as joining with a pre-selected squad (for when you cannot connect to one another) and maybe some shop type system set up there.

 

Can't wait for sortie token system though!

 

In other news stances should've been more unique in acquisition from the getgo. When you have an extra stance here and there (such as the vengeful) its fine because you probably have another spare but with new weapons having super rare stances it makes it quite unpleasant since stances are (arguably) a very big portion of the whole melee system.

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I feel the login system can be slightly tweaked in a way, for example, I have nearly 80 tellurium, 400 gallium and over 100 orokin cells, and every so often I get those as rewards. Perhaps lower the chance of resources if you have an extensive amount of them?

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Between the Sorties and the discussion of Stance acquisition, I think the point we really need to boil it down to is simple: Grind.

 

What's compelling about having vendors like Maroo and Baro, is that they can turn your excess failures into end goals - consolation prizes for when you can't get what you want the hard way.

Originally when a Void Trader was announced, I presumed (as I believe many others did) that he would exist to turn excess Prime parts into other rewards from the Void (taking his title literally), perhaps with a rotating cycle of rewards to encourage keeping some form of grind when he's not around or offering what you want right now - if you want it right now then go out and get it, if you're willing to wait then wait. Instead, he got... unique rewards, which ended up creating an even bigger grind for many players who were used to selling their excess parts in Trade.

While it isn't what we ended up with, I believe the original misconception remains an excellent model: Using a vendor not to provide a way to introduce new rewards that players will inevitably dismiss, but to provide a safety net to prevent a grind from going on too long considering the number of <1% drop chances on rare mobs we have to contend with, and price gougers in trade.

I speak not only of Maroo and Sortie rewards (although being able to sell off your 15 excess Nezha Helmet Blueprints to buy the Systems you can never get to drop is appealing), but of rare items in general, including Warframe parts or mods such as Vulpine Mask. For instance, a rotating band of vendors from the colonies with higher uptime than Baro but more frequent turnovers than the Sortie seasons, each with their own specialty rewards (say, collected from X planet they once lived on).

 

Ultimately, if you want to "reduce the grind", then safety nets are exactly what players need - multiple paths to the same reward. I'm not saying any way should be easy, I'm saying at least one way should be reliable and available.

For instance: A revamp to Transmutation. Instead of putting in 4 Crossing Snakes and getting a Rupture, you could instead use the system to research mods you don't have. Go out and work on your Codex, get all of the mob entries that will drop the mod you want, then fuse other mods that drop from those mobs (to verify that yes, you have tried and failed) to churn one out, with a higher requirement for mod energy to complete the research depending on the rarity of the mod. Put a cooldown or wait time on that research and limit it to one mod at a time, and players will still be encouraged to tough it out over simply using it every time a new mod comes out; if the mod drops, you can stop researching and lose nothing. Simaris' Transmutation Cores could instead be used similarly to Fusion Cores (limited to the same polarity as the mod you're after) for this purpose. Overall, if you can't eliminate the RNG, make it work for the players rather than against them.

It's been suggested a few times that, in order to accommodate this system, alerts could be altered similarly to some events or Gift of the Lotus alerts to increase mob concentrations, so that the appeal of that alert for 8300 credits isn't the reward you don't need, but that 70% of the enemies are standard Scorpions, hey I heard you were after Defiled Snapdragon. (Perhaps a system like this could also be used to spice up some of the more dull mission types, like... Exterminates? "Here is a training ground/breeding ground/manufacturing center, cull X unit to deter production"? To give us a reason to come back to them.) Even for rare mobs, just being able to turn "spawns (a maximum of) once per mission" into "spawns (a minimum of) 5 times per mission" would be a massive improvement.

 

As far as Maroo's Bazaar, something I'd like to see added ties into a system Steve mentioned he was working on some time ago, minigames. Specifically, I'd like to see a casino. 

Players could join lobbies for a minigame (for instance, a Warframe-themed variant of Texas Hold'em), and will be asked to ante resources. Depending on the total rarity of the resources put in (so players won't just put in their excess Nano Spores and Alloy Plates), the house will also put in a visible rare prize, and winner take all. This would require that minigame lobbies be completely randomized (automatically Public, can't join in a group or invite players to join you) to prevent win-trading. Perhaps joining a lobby could also prompt the player for Low Stakes or High Stakes and put limitations on what they're allowed to ante, to limit trolling.

Why this? Because it provides an alternative way for players to collect resources. Sure, you could repeat the Excavation model of having each resource tied to a specific mission type to incentivize replays, but if past reworks have shown, the design emphasis is on making something unique.

 

Of course, having Stance acquisition be affected by actually using the weapon will be nice too, but the one issue with having it be limited to this case is that leveling up a weapon creates the best opportunity to get to know the stance being used, and whenever a new weapon type is released (such as Rapiers), you only have the impression left by the one combo you can access to decide if you want to keep the weapon. Not really a priority, but food for thought; I'd still need to see how the new system would work before passing judgement.

 

To everybody who's been signal-boosting this post, you've inspired me to make it a thread in which we can hopefully further discuss such ideas, as well as if you have any to add or share.

Edited by Archwizard
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My current, singular, issue with Login rewards is the 2-3 hour boost spam. Yes, when I have time to play they are awesome. But a lot of the time I pop on to cycle my extractors and I'm faced with yet ANOTHER boost I cannot use. I see 2 or 3 hour resource drop chance boosters 3-4 days out of each week so far since the new system went live. I just want the ability to stock the booster until the next day rolls over. Let me use it sometime before I have the chance to earn another and I'll be completely happy.

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Glorious. 

 

The current Sortie reward system is....vexing.  At the moment, I'm sitting on a large pile of Karak and Dera Barrells, and not much else.  I believe in the last 3 seasons I've picked up two lenses and....Fusion cores.

 

Yay?  

 

The lenses were for Focus Schools I'm not using; maybe have the lenses be picked from whichever school you're on currently?

 

Fusion Cores; okay, not bad.  I went through and maxed three Prime mods as well as a few Corrupted, so my cores are getting low.  Personally, if I'm going through an hour of non-challenging missions, I'd like more than 25 for my time.  Maybe 100 instead would be better.

Edited by Noamuth
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Tokens will hopefully be great, especially since you're adding the system on top of existing rewards, but for the love of anything you hold sacred or dear, make sure Focus Lenses are available for purchase with tokens. Progression governed by RNG is horrible. 

 

The bazaar will be something I use when it has a proper auction/purchase house in it rather than constant "fishing" for trades. 

 

The login system is nice, but it could use some tweaking. At least make repeat rewards a little less likely to appear consecutively. 

 

Edit: Realized I got sidetracked. Here's my ideal representation of "stances." 

 

The Tenno starts with a basic stance for each weapon type. But what is a stance?

 

1 Quick Attack Chain (While another weapon is active.)

1 Fast Attack Chain (For hitting groups of enemies.)

1 Heavy Attack Chain (For hitting bigger things harder.) 

1 Slide Attack Chain (Because if you slide through a group of enemies, you should be able to hit them all.) 

1 Aerial Attack Chain (Because if you bullet-jump through a group - you get the idea.) 

1 Wall Latch Attack Chain (Parkour bosses, anybody? Also, who uses Wall Attacks over Aerial Attacks nowadays?)

1 Slam Attack (Because AOE proc/knockdown on some weapons and utter uselessness on others is boring.) 

1 Set of Finisher Animations (Stealth + Counter)

1 Parrying Sequence (For gratuitous style-points.) 

Bonus points for custom idles. 

 

As the Tenno gains affinity with a specific weapon (ranks it up), they can use more of the combo chains. But what is a chain? 

 

A sequence of animations, really, and not much more. Stances really ought to be differentiated by sense of style, not advantages in DPS or auxiliary usefulness. The whole point of fancy animations (which is what stances are) is to look cool while kicking &amp;#&#33;. Kinda sucks for anybody who doesn't really like Crimson Dervish and its twirly sweeps, or the flourishes of Tempo Royale right now. 

 

Instead of giving unique effects to different strokes for seemingly arbitrary reasons and highly variable usefulness, put some effort into contextual circumstances for triggering different effects on enemies. Land a heavy attack on an enemy that is using an ability - a Heavy Gunner using its blast or a Drak Master summoning Draks - to knock it back. Parry an attack just before it hits to open an enemy to a finisher. Stuff like that. 

Okay, so where can a Tenno get new stances if they don't drop? Well, through training in their Dojo, passing Mastery Rank milestones, and perhaps some in-game factions *coughcough* Syndicates *coughcough* could have special fighting styles they might pass on to friendly Tenno. Maybe even spoilerific skill trees could offer something new. 

 

Things to keep in mind:

Flips, twirls, and rolls are okay... as long as they don't inhibit the player's ability to move or attack. Otherwise they make the combo/stance feel cumbersome and not fun to use. Forced movement in general is not much fun. 

 

Keep DPS roughly the same across the various stances. That said, don't play around with stats too much. Leave damage type specialization, channeling emphasis, and all that other jazz to the mods

 

Basic stances should be just as fleshed out as ones earned later down the line. 

 

Ditch the variable combo inputs... unless you plan to really flesh out the game's melee combat so that it matches the depth of hack-and-slash games like Devil May Cry. I don't really think this game's time-to-kill would allow for that sort of combat, though. At least, not without playing with player damage resistances while attacking, and some sort of incentive for landing more hits on one enemy. Holding "Forward" or "Back" on a movement key doesn't exactly make a combo more interesting to learn. 

 

Think long and hard about that "combo counter." Is it really anything more than a semi-functional Band-Aid to help melee DPS keep up with firearms? Hm... Just buff melee. Infinite ammo is not enough to compensate for limited range and greater personal risk on top of lesser damage output. 

Edited by DiabolusUrsus
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Once a Tenno has say a straight single sword. A specific mastery rank style test, custom alert or something similar should be made available to "learn" the stance required. Learning/completing mission would yield the appropriate stance.

 

This will require DE to think adequately ahead to plan tests, quests or lessons to acquire stances. Obtaining a stance mod for your weapon should not left to chance and RNG.

Edited by RawGritz
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The lenses were for Focus Schools I'm not using; maybe have the lenses be picked from whichever school you're on currently?

then we would need to have another way of getting lenses, bc if you want to change focus you need other lenses, I always find myself exchanging lenses with ally-mmbrs

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Stances

On stances, they should work like a talent tree system: gain affinity, unlock new combos.

It's possible, given that I believe PC and consoles both have at least one free button in melee mode, that multiple stances could actually be available at once: Crimson Dervish could work through a heavy melee button while Iron Phoenix through the traditional one, for example.

But that's kind of an aside. Main point is, affinity (or perhaps kills, or some other measure of weapon usage by type) should cause combos to be unlocked. The base combo for the uncommon stance should be available from the start. I think this idea was first suggested on a popular post almost three years ago (before melee 2.0), but I still think it's great.

Sorties

Please, please do some actual mathematical analysis of how many runs each item should take to acquire. It will save us from begging for a second adjustment period when something of low-moderate value like lenses are 200,000 tokens and each full sortie gives 10. Also, consider adding greater lenses to the buyable options.

On an aside, if this system works out you should implement it for Prime Parts (outside the most recent few Prime Access's) as well.

Maroo's Bazaar

EA's sports games give an example of an auction house that I think works well. I could understand some resistance by DE because of the possibility of prices being driven down, but two things (that exist in Madden's ultimate team, for example) can counteract this:

1. A "instant buy" price. This will cause people to pay more, rather than risk getting outbidded or letting someone else instant buy ahead of them.

2. Required time limits. This will cause bidding frienzies in the final minutes of auctions. These time limits should depend on the type of item being sold (keys should have short ones, while prime parts could have longer ones). Players should have a range in time to choose from.

(I just used EA as an example of something good. I'm sorry.)

Logins

I don't shy away from being critical, but I don't really understand the complaints here. Login rewards are almost never pointless now, and with the weapon regifting fix all should be well. That being said, more rewards wouldn't hurt.

Edited by (PS4)WiiConquered
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Bazar:

When it first got announced, I thought we'd at least be able to setup our shops. Turns out, it's an alternative for those that do not have a Dojo, but slightly worse as the trading can go through much faster through the Dojo.

Except for chilling out with friends (which you can do in Dojo and in the Relays as well), I don't see much use for it.

 

Login:

As a MR21 Tenno, the worst I'm getting is a rare resource. So much better than what it used to be!

However, I feel like the milestones are spread a bit too much. I was hoping we'd have short milestones between the long milestones.

Like a 15-days milestone and then a 60 days milestone. So a reward at 15, 30, 45 and then a big reward at 60. Then again at 75, 90, 105 and a big one at 120, etc...

 

Also, I'd like it if we could get the boosters as an item that we can activate manually, instead of activating it when acquired.

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Stance Mods:

The source thread for this topic is a big megathread of discussion about Vulpine Mask and Stance mods in general. One of the biggest issues is the acquisition of Stance mods, especially as more Stances are added to the game. Rebecca already commented that “something” is in the works (you can see the details in the spoilers below), but what do you think would be the best way to acquire Stance mods? How would you make it fair and challenging? Do you think that acquiring Stances should be tied to weapons in some way? Could they be earned? What other ideas can you come up with? Post your thoughts in this thread or in the source thread below!
 
 

Source thread:

 

 

 

I feel Stances should not be "Stance Mods". Having a specific style of melee combat for a certain weapon class being locked to finding it somewhere in the god forsaken Origin System and being completely useless without it is not appealing in any way.

 

I want Stances to be just Stances, not Stance Mods. Maybe depending on the amount of kills, XP earned on it, specific requirements and tasks to accomplish, or simply leveling the weapon will unlock stances.

 

Example:

 

You have just obtained Venka. You get 100 kills with it and unlock Malicious Raptor. There are two darkened mods in the melee mods UI that show you what milestones you need to reach in order to unlock them.

 

One says "Kill thirty heavy units with frontal finishers" (this is in total, not in one mission). You accomplish this and have now unlocked Four Riders. However, you may only unlock your second, third, so on stance when you have maxed the weapon and have gained 500+ kills with it.

 

---

 

Again, I have always felt stances being mods was incredibly stupid. A new complex system would certainly be rewarding and less grindy.

Edited by LazerSkink
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then we would need to have another way of getting lenses, bc if you want to change focus you need other lenses, I always find myself exchanging lenses with ally-mmbrs

Trade'em?

 

It's just annoying to get stuff for things I'm not using and/or have no interest in using, and then basically being forced to either, trade for something I do want or continue grinding with the hope that I might get what I can use. 

 

Personally, giving you things to help with what you're already focusing on is more beneficial. : / 

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I believe stance mods should have a slightly higher drop rate or change how they are received. The .021% drop rates for some of them are crazy hard to get so most have to go buy it from that one lucky guy who got 3 randomly. The new mod for example has a .021% drop rate off a mob that all ready doesn't spawn very often if at all except on Uranus, sabotage mission and even then you have a 50% chance of getting the correct one. A new stance drop system or higher drop rates would be awesome and allow people to experience more of the game with the combos the mods offer.

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A token system for sorties would be great, just don't mess it up by over inflating the costs.

 

I just can't help but think somethings going to be wrong with it, Murphy's Law has struck one too many times for me to be completely confident.

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Stances need the same treatment Warframe powers got.

Each weapon should come with an innate stance (no mod card required) that unlocks combos as you level up. Existing stances then become "elite" stances that unlock more combos and raise mod points of weapons.

This way, you can enjoy combos just by leveling the weapon, and existing stances still add to the weapon.

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I feel Stances should not be "Stance Mods". Having a specific style of melee combat for a certain weapon class being locked to finding it somewhere in the god forsaken Origin System and being completely useless without it is not appealing in any way.

 

I want Stances to be just Stances, not Stance Mods. Maybe depending on the amount of kills, XP earned on it, specific requirements and tasks to accomplish, or simply leveling the weapon will unlock stances.

 

Example:

 

You have just obtained Venka. You get 100 kills with it and unlock Malicious Raptor. There are two darkened mods in the melee mods UI that show you what milestones you need to reach in order to unlock them.

 

One says "Kill thirty heavy units with frontal finishers" (this is in total, not in one mission). You accomplish this and have now unlocked Four Riders. However, you may only unlock your second, third, so on stance when you have maxed the weapon and have gained 500+ kills with it.

 

---

 

Again, I have always felt stances being mods was incredibly stupid. A new complex system would certainly be rewarding and less grindy.

This sounds like a good system for unlocking combos. They could also implement a tree system like the Focus system. Choose which styles you want for the weapons and maybe small bonuses for them. Give the game more depth and more to work towards. 

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Sortie tokens: I'm in full favor of this. I know we need a lot of them, but I'm getting very tired of trudging through sometimes overly challenging content for another lens. I enjoy the challenge, but getting another Naramon lens doesn't do me much good as I'm currently all-in on Unairu.

 

Login rewards: Compared to the old system, the new system is excellent. I'm a bit tired of getting things like Orokin Cells (I have over 600 of them!) but I love getting 3 hour affinity boosters. It gets me excited to go do stuff as soon as I log in. It's less that the items being offered are bad, and more that only a few are worthwhile for me as an MR21 player. Not sure how I'd fix my particular issue since I'm not really who the login reward is trying to help the most.

 

Trading Bazaar: How do I put this... I've been playing for years now, and using the same trade chat we've had for all of that time. The Bazaar is nice on paper, but it's just another trade chat. There's no real intelligent systems to make finding the things you're looking for easier. It's still wading through a sea of WTS without making any deals, except you can't fiddle around on your Landing Craft while you're waiting. It's been said to death, but auction house is the way to solve it. Possibly posted items, like Steam does with cards now. I.E. you make a post for what item you want and how much you want to pay or what you're selling and for how much. Then someone can come along and match that and you'll receive an inbox message with the result. The trading system itself we have is fine, the problem is actually finding trades that are not ridiculous ("I want a very rare item" "I am selling the big ticket item right now and nothing else" "I want a disproportionate price for an item") and most people don't know what an item is truly worth. If we can have posted trades or something to that effect, it would be easier to see what items are averaging, so you don't get scalpers expecting 500p for a mod like Atlantis Vulcan or expecting to get something like Vermilion Storm for 5p. Just seeing the average prices would solve a lot of the problem, as the players would be keeping the value in line just by trading.

 

Stances: I don't care how you do it, so long as every stance is available in a guaranteed fashion. I really like Final Harbinger, but I am tired of fighting Tyl Regor to try and find it. If they stop being drops and are obtained in some other way, like weapon use or "rank up" tests given by Teshin or something, I'm 100% behind that so long as I won't end up doing the thing for sword & shield 50 times and only getting Eleventh Storm for my time instead of Final Harbinger.

Edited by BlaineKodos
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Voted other for the stance topic. I feel that Stances as a whole should be reworked. Some lower tiered stances like Iron phoenix shouldn't be classified as rare. Some stances need to be changed in rarity and those that remain rares should be earned through some sort of display of skill like the drift mods and be non tradable. i think common or uncommon stances should drop like normal, but rares should be treated special.

 

Lets take one of the empty orbiter rooms into the equation. One room could function as a sort of mastery test/ drift mod test. in which once you possess some certain prerequisite. you can take a test to initially unlock a rare stance. (lets take vengeful revenant for this example) Say you complete the prerequisite and are able to unlock an unranked VR. you must then take this stance and equip it to a weapon, go into the training grounds and complete a series of tests to unlock each subsequent rank

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I mean this as politely as possible, but I was disappointed to see that Neko's thread on CC was not made a community hot topic; https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/593508-cc-negatively-impacts-the-game-900-words/ 

 

This could potentially uncover some of the hidden dissatisfactions and larger issues long-time players have with the game and I think has gained enough attention to merit larger discussion.

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