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Let's Talk About Grind (Edit: 2/9 - No More Style Kills)


Archwizard
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One of the stated points of the upcoming Starchart 3.0 is to disseminate loot caves - spread players out over all of the nodes available, rather than simply crowding around Draco.
But see, there's a problem with just saying that; if past experience has proven anything, players are going to find the most effective way to get their affinity, resources and mods, and simply trying to address the "flavor of the month" meta only gives rise to a new one. Remember Viver? E-Gate? Draco will always live on, under a new name.

So, why Draco? The short version is, every system in Warframe (except for Stealth, though that only affects affinity gains) encourages mass killing, which is most possible on Endless mission nodes in which enemies consistently pool in from all directions in large quantities (and faster, if you kill quick enough!), especially with maps that lack line-of-sight constrictions. This creates the perfect storm to kill enemies with a single radial damage attack.
Now of course, shared affinity gains have been a long-term solution for combating hallway heroes, and having every system released thereafter (Reputation, Focus) be attached to affinity cleans that right up. (Well, no, Focus still encourages hallway heroes, but luckily that's going to be addressed. Right?)

However, one system has remained consistently unchanged in all of this: Drops. And if we know anything from the number of players spamming Desecrate or calling for every Warframe to have a loot augment, drops are everything. They don't just affect our advancement, they are our advancement.

Those of you who have perused any Nekros thread within the past two years have probably seen my opinions on that kind of loot skill: It's a band-aid solution that doesn't actually fix the problem. The Gambler's Fallacy: Just because you have more chances to get the result you want doesn't necessarily mean the second, third, fourth chance is any better than the first. However, as they're limited to <1% chances per kill, we need to make up for the low chances en masse - even if that means Desecrating a corpse 8 times before it either drops something or disintegrates. So the mass killing and mindless Desecration continues; we all become cogs in the machine, because that's the only way to get what we need. As the grind increases, so does player burnout, until the metaphorical heat death occurs.

It has to stop. I've covered why, the hard part is how.

In truth, the answer is addressing that last point: Grinding loot caves is the only solution to get what we want. Now, you can argue that it's "just the best one" but face it, everything boils down to killing enemies, and the provided alternatives are just drawn out methods of killing them in large sums.
For this reason, I have come up with a number of systems that I hope to see implemented (those of you who have viewed last week's CHT have seen a preview) to alleviate this grind.

Bring the Player, Not the Frame
This is a two-pronged initiative falling under one point: Making loot be less mindless, and more about rewarding players based on their experience and skill.

Point the first: Eliminate loot powers. Replace Desecrate, Pilfering Swarm and Ore Gaze, and drop the loot bonuses from Prowl and Effigy. Or Hek, keep them all, but remove the chance to drop anything but orbs and ammo (those drops that are relevant to the mission without necessarily gaming the mission type), and suddenly they'll be effectively the same as gone.

In most cases, augments to increase loot upon using an ability are suggested because players find fault with the ability itself, and literally would only use it if it paid them to. That suggests a serious flaw that needs to be addressed with that frame's kit - luckily, we have an all-too-eager feedback forum that's always willing to suggest upgrades and replacements.

 

Point the second, {suggested by Shockwave-}: Goal-oriented mission rewards. At the end of the mission, each player will receive a reward based on their behavior within the mission. Personal attributes like reviving your allies, not dying yourself, as well as team objectives such as not setting off alarms or damage taken by Defense objectives will all contribute to the quality of this end of mission reward. (This runs on the same principle as the Rescue missions, where killing Wardens and saving the hostage undetected will improve the quality of your Specters.)
If you're a good team player, you get a bonus for that. If somebody is being stupid, they get nothing - but you can still profit off their stupidity, putting a limiter on toxic attitudes.

 

"But wait, without Desecrate and Pilfering Swarm, what if I want to go find mods or resources?", you ask. Bear with me.

Safety Nets
Before we met Baro, most of us probably heard the announcement for a Void Trader and took the title quite literally: a way to trade parts from the Void; if a grind has gone on too long, you sell the spoils from that grind and get what you wanted - just not right away. RNG would work in your favor only to prematurely stop your grinding (rather than extending it), while you would ultimately have a light at the end of the tunnel.
While it isn't what we got, it is a system that the devs are finally testing out the upcoming changes to Sortie rewards. I believe this system should be expanded.

The problem with Baro isn't that he didn't give us what we wanted; it's that ultimately, he doesn't reduce dilution or grinding in any way, and in fact increases the grind just to get to the unique things he stocks, since all of the parts you can sell to him generally go through trade first.

What players need are more paths to the same rewards, so they don't feel like they need to run one mission over and over forever until RNGesus decides to be kind. We just need a reliable way to get there, even if we need to be more patient for it. Three prongs this time.

First, a rotating band of vendors in Relays, with a higher uptime than Baro but a more frequent turnover than the Sortie systems. Perhaps they can be exclusive to the colonies on each planet, offering to sell or trade rewards from whatever enemies commonly spawn there. This also creates an opportunity to expand on lore and immersion by giving us a closer connection to the civilian population we always hear about but never see (one of the contributing factors to Grineer victory in Gradivus, other than an early lead on rewards). What the value of these rewards are is up to the developers, but should include consistent pricing based on rarity, so players can predict the cost of whatever part it is they want rather than getting blindsided (700 Ducats for a 20p Catalyst, anyone?).
They should not offer unique rewards - remember, this is about offering players an end point to a grind, not moving the goalposts farther away. They should not simply be "consolation prizes" like the Damaged mods are, they should be as good as any drop for the effort you already put into getting them. This should include Warframe parts, because when you kill the boss 15 times and still don't have the Systems, it's getting a little ridiculous.

Second, a revamp to Transmutation. I know Steve says that "what you input absolutely influences your output", but when I can put in 4 Crossing Snakes three times and get a Rupture, Ammo Drum and Reflection, it's a moot point if the average rarity of my collection is accelerating downward. We don't need another way to gamble with drops, that's what killing things for them in the first place is for.
Instead, I recommend that Transmutation be changed to a system to research mods. Tie it into the Codex by asking the player to complete their scans on each enemy that drops the mod they want, set that completed mod in the Codex as a target, then fuse together other drops from those enemies to get the energy to synthesize the mod you want, with the total energy cost based on the rarity of the mod itself. Tack on a cooldown or foundry-style wait time, limited to one item at a time, and players won't be able to default to it. Because it would remain a fusion-oriented system not unlike leveling a mod in the first place, Simaris' fusion cores would still have a purpose: extra mod energy when researching items of the same polarity.

Finally, in order to accommodate both of the above, put out alerts that increase the frequency of spawning a particular enemy type (ie 70% of the enemies on this node are Scorpions). In fact, if this was extended to a change to a mission type (such as, say, Exterminates?), this would push players away from sitting only on Endless mission nodes.

Out of Combat
Some time back, Steve mentioned that he was working on a minigame system, to encourage players to stick around Relays. This provides the perfect launching point for yet another alternative to grinding for rewards: Gambling.
No, not against the system - against other players. Well okay, the system too, if you want to be technical.

Surely someone who runs a "perfectly legitimate business" like Maroo or Darvo would have a back room for their most affluent customers, no?

The way it works is this: Players could join lobbies for a minigame, and will be asked to ante resources before the game begins, as a wager against the players they compete against. Depending on the total rarity of the resources put in (so players won't just put in their excess Nano Spores and Alloy Plates), the house (an NPC) will also put in a visible rare prize, and winner take all.
This would require that gambling lobbies be completely randomized (automatically Public, can't join in a group or invite players to join you) to prevent win-trading. Perhaps joining a lobby could also prompt the player for Low Stakes or High Stakes and put limitations on what they're allowed to ante, to limit trolling - or, just joining a lobby from a particular relay will automatically influence the stakes to match.

Alongside the Extractors, this will allow players an alternative way to collect resources - and as a game type, this would also cause players to increase their winnings based on their skill at whatever game they're playing.
 

---------- Additional Discussions ----------

 

Bring the Player, Not the Frame

 

Additional: Implement Style Kills. Style Kills would allow players to multiply the loot dropped off an enemy based on their actions - in short, at-will but target-limited Desecration - while not necessarily forcing but nudging them away from spamming one button over and over.

{Edit inspired by Cool3303} As a tentative limiter: In order to gain credit for completion of style kills (and thus the bonus rewards from them), players must craft and equip a special item, similar to a Fomorian Disruptor. When this item is equipped, the player is prevented from entering lobbies with anyone who doesn't have the item equipped (queuing for public will automatically search for anybody with it if available, and attempting to start a mission with it equipped without consensus will bounce, a la Sorties or Fomorians) - so everybody is on the same page. The item may also have adverse effects on the player's ability casts.
Don't want to get yelled at for using abilities? Don't equip the item.


What qualifies as a style kill? Just as some examples (not necessarily the full list):

·         Getting 2 or more Headshot Kills with one attack (be it one arrow with punch through, a multishot, a Glaive throw, explosives, a wide swing...)

·         Getting a Headshot Kill while aim-gliding, or from a melee ground slam

·         Kills while maintaining an uninterrupted sniper or melee Combo chain for a minimum period

·         Killing a target after hitting them with your primary weapon, secondary weapon and a melee charged attack

·         Finishing off an enemy with a parry counterattack, or an aerial melee attack

·         Maintaining a 5x Affinity Multiplier Stealth Kill chain before the first alarm goes off

Generally, kills that require more than one button press or some calculation to pull off.
These multipliers would stack on each kill that fulfills those conditions, of course, because if you're enough of a badass to silently headshot two enemies with one arrow from the air, you deserve every accolade you get for it.
You'll note that most of these systems emphasize melee and have few conditions that allow powers, and that's a point: Melee weapons are generally considered to be underperformers, but their existence encourages risk-reward gameplay... while lacking a genuine reward beyond finisher attacks. Meanwhile, powers are already considered to be the most effective way to rake in mass kills.
Style Kills shouldn't just randomly roll the enemy's table for an extra shot at ammo. It should exclusively roll for rewards that are unique to that target, and maybe resources.

The idea is that this will reward the kind of gameplay that is generally not seen in loot cave groups compared to spamming your ultimate, or signature support skill. Everyone in the party has to work for their loot, rather than relying on someone else to smack the loot piñata for them and being rewarded for just being there, spamming one button over and over.

 

Datalysts, Combas and Scrambuses have drop tables that only have rare mods, which makes them exciting to hunt down. Why can't that extend to all mobs? Have rare mods be normal drops from rare enemies and common mods be exclusive to common enemies?

 

Rather than attempt to distribute loot evenly, why not use the various gametypes as in-universe justifications for various bonuses?

The most obvious example would be using excavation for mining resources en-masse, but how about using Asteroid Sabotage to boost resource productivity in the region for a period of time? Using Spy to improve drop chances for specific rewards? Using Capture to influence faction relations?

 


  • Forma need to be less mechanically punishing. Either they need to not unlevel items, or we should be able to apply them on any item that was previously mastered, regardless of rank.
  • Fewer Forma should be required to maximize a build. Most weapons should not require more than 3 Forma, and a select few should require 4, 5 at the absolute most.
  • Forma acquisition needs to be more reliable, both for farming blueprints and completed Forma.
  • Bonus Affinity should be a consistent boost regardless of mission type in order to make endless and non-endless mission types more viable for affinity farming.

  • Affinity should not be divided among equipped gear. Killing an enemy worth 100 Affinity by any means should provide every equipped item with 100 Affinity, rather than providing 50 to the weapon used and 50 to the Warframe, or 100 to just the Warframe.

I understand that this thread is more about resources and other loot, but Affinity is a huge problem that is very relevant to the topic of grind in Warframe and needs to be discussed.

Edited by Archwizard
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This is a very intelligent solution. Providing players an option to earn something that RNG refuses to provide is definitely a fantastic idea.

 

I particularly like the "style kills", because while Warframe does have a higher skill ceiling than it may initially appear, it doesn't have anything to reward player skill. It actually seems to reward standing in one place and pressing the same button over and over again.

Edited by Gurpgork
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more l00t for playing in non-standard and Skillful ways

shut up and take my money. but not just l00t, do it for pretty much everything in the game.

 

First, a rotating band of vendors in Relays, to buy Mods, Warframe Parts, and more from

unfortunately i can never agree with making all Gameplay possible to boil down to a Currency Grind, even if it's just a secondary option. while it's a safe system, it is a very bland one.

yes, i would rather roll the dice and not get what i want while having fun than have a floating bar in my face that says 'you must have a s...bucket this deep to ride'.

i cannot recommend Currency Grinds as mechanics in any game. various Currencies shouldn't make the player specifically play the game just to get more of that, IMO. 

 

however, the smaller or less extreme a system is, the more you can get away with veiled Currency Grinds. Resources and Credits have achieved this mostly, where you will get a reasonable amount through play on it's own, and getting more is as simple as 'play the game and have a good time'.

 

(one of the contributing factors to Grineer victory in Gradivus, other than an early lead on rewards).

you're silly. the Grineer spouted propaganda about saving lives, which i guess maybe people ate up, but that was complete crap since:

- Tenno Cryopods in Grineer control get destroyed, Corpus disassemble them for science. this one is up to you as to what the lesser of two evils is.

- Civilians under Grineer are Slaves, Civilians under Corpus are low class citizens that pay high taxes.

 

They should not simply be "consolation prizes" like the Damaged mods are

i would certainly take being able to get Damaged Mods from this (or anywhere other than making Alt Accounts) though...

pls

 

 

I know Steve says that "what you input absolutely influences your output", but when I can put in 4 Crossing Snakes three times and get a Rupture, Ammo Drum and Reflection, it's a moot point if the average rarity of my collection is accelerating downward. We don't need another way to gamble with drops, that's what killing things for them in the first place is for.

 

Instead, I recommend that Transmutation be changed to a system to research mods. Tie it into the Codex by asking the player to complete their scans on each enemy that drops the mod they want, set that completed mod in the Codex as a target, then fuse together other drops from those enemies to get the energy to synthesize the mod you want, with the total energy cost based on the rarity of the mod itself. Tack on a cooldown or foundry-style wait time, limited to one item at a time, and players won't be able to default to it. Because it would remain a fusion-oriented system not unlike leveling a mod in the first place, Simaris' fusion cores would still have a purpose: extra mod energy when researching items of the same polarity.

 

Finally, in order to accommodate both of the above, put out alerts that increase the frequency of spawning a particular enemy type (ie 70% of the enemies on this node are Scorpions). In fact, if this was extended to a change to a mission type (such as, say, Exterminates?), this would push players away from sitting only on Endless mission nodes.

- to be extremely fair, you always got a Mod of the same Rarity as 4 of whatever Rarity you input, until Players whined about getting Rare Warframe Abilities - and then you got Common and Uncommon Mods at an exact Percentage instead of Rare Warframe Abilities.

so, good on you Community, you really.... stuck it to the man. by getting a lower value result that isn't atleast a 25% return on your input, but instead a 0% return at the same rate.

gg.

 

- i'd use that. for sure. more intuitive and natural feeling. brings in more of the Bioshock esque themes that Codex Scanning is pulling from in the first place.

 

- would increase variety, so even if only for that, i'd say go for it.

 

healthy - not directly PvP - competition with Player items to be bet in Minigames

that's what i get out of that, atleast. i know you're not implying that, but i see having both.

 

it could be as simple as 'space chess' with bets, or w/e, or as complex as... Tenno D&D with the game as the DM.

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unfortunately i can never agree with making all Gameplay possible to boil down to a Currency Grind, even if it's just a secondary option. while it's a safe system, it is a very bland one.

yes, i would rather roll the dice and not get what i want while having fun than have a floating bar in my face that says 'you must have a s...bucket this deep to ride'.

i cannot recommend Currency Grinds as mechanics in any game. various Currencies shouldn't make the player specifically play the game just to get more of that, IMO. 

 

however, the smaller or less extreme a system is, the more you can get away with veiled Currency Grinds. Resources and Credits have achieved this mostly, where you will get a reasonable amount through play on it's own, and getting more is as simple as 'play the game and have a good time'.

 

Well, I was considering it wouldn't so much require currency as much as costing trades up to the rarity - something like trading 20 Serrations for a Master Thief, or 5 Helmets for a Systems. Sort of a "if I had a nickle for every time X didn't drop" deal.

 

you're silly. the Grineer spouted propaganda about saving lives, which i guess maybe people ate up, but that was complete crap since:

- Tenno Cryopods in Grineer control get destroyed, Corpus disassemble them for science. this one is up to you as to what the lesser of two evils is.

- Civilians under Grineer are Slaves, Civilians under Corpus are low class citizens that pay high taxes.

 

Oh no, I was referring to the fact that it was, from the most simplistic perspective, a choice between A) killing Salad's troops and rescuing fellow Tenno behind the scenes or B) killing Ruk's troops and, behind the scenes, sparing civilians we've never had any direct interaction with.

 

We let Mars get subjugated for a pistol and a sack of potatoes.

Edited by Archwizard
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We let Mars get subjugated for a pistol and a sack of potatoes.

well, i see it as because:

 

this is a Vidjya Game - making meaningful decisions is secondary to many other options. given a choice between meaningful decisions or items that are a tangible thing to the Player, they'll choose the items.

meaningful decisions should NOT be connected to any items or anything of the sort in games. in order for story to really work, Players need to be choosing only story when choosing story.

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Question regarding the vendors in the Relays: Would the Warframe parts have to be from a Warframe I was already trying unsuccessfully to farm for?

 

For instance, if I had been farming Equinox and getting all the wrong parts over and over again, would I be able to trade some of those parts for Mesa parts, or would I only be able to get Equinox parts?

 

I feel like that's a relevant question.

 

Even so, it would be a great way to reduce the headache of farming for a frame like Equinox. I was really lucky to only spend about a week farming for her.

Edited by Gurpgork
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so you want people to play like Zidan to get loot?

Farming is already a job, why do one need to become a Master Farmer to get what he should be getting anyways?

you are not addressing stuff that is hidden behind grindwalls and want to put grind behind a skill wall? you sure?

your proposition needs to have current base drop rates increased by 20-30% and never go down with style kills only increasing it by X times (2 times as more is not likely)

 

and furthermore, noone is gonna bother, they'll just nuke the hell out of the hordes. ain't nobody got time for style kills

you would need to prevent all the embers, excaliburs etc from using their 4s to perform style kills which is not only just badly forcing them to not use abilities which you called "bring player, not the frame",

putting frames out of the game built around frames and turning it into some lame 3PS Farming Simulator

 

also, style kills reward solo play and that is against co-op play (cooperating to play using only style kills is possible but is BS - pubs are at disadvantage)

your attempt is admirable but you need to cover flaws and holes

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Question regarding the vendors in the Relays: Would the Warframe parts have to be from a Warframe I was already trying unsuccessfully to farm for?

 

It'd be for the Warframe you're unsuccessfully farming, yes. The point of this system is for the player to be able to honestly say "I tried! I failed. Running this guy stopped being fun 10 failures ago." If you could throw parts around to build any Warframe, people would farm Jackal or The Sergeant for everything in lieu of earning Mutalist Alad V keys.

 

-snip-

 

I feel like you skipped over a lot of the post, so I'll give you the courtesy of a TL;DR to address your points:

  • Yes, Pressing 4 remains an option - as a point! This is about giving the players more avenues than just loot caves, particularly if they only care what one target drops when they go farming anyway. Pressing 4 is not always the best solution, especially on non-Endless mission types where enemies (and likely, your team) are spread out, and you're in tight hallways with little line-of-sight.

     

  • Consider that everything you say about "style kills" (it's time consuming, it's for solo play) could also apply to the Stealth Kill system... which exists. And is frequently used by players who don't have the flavor-of-the-month build for Draco anyway.

     

  • Keeping in mind that aside from the rare case of a low MR player deciding to clear their starchart, most of the time if you're going to a specific node, you'll be encountering people who are there for the same reasons you are - "This was on the wiki as a good place to farm X", "This DS has the best affinity bonus". I ran Triton about a dozen times last week and only ever ran into people who were also farming Vulpine Mask, same as me. Generally if you share the same interest, then serendipitously sharing strategies is not all that uncommon either.

     

  • The "flaws and holes" are covered by the safety nets I also mentioned a bit lower than the Style Kills. The trade-off here is yes, you lose Desecrate, but A) you can perform its functions on any frame and B) after a certain point, you stop rolling dice and actually get what you want. I don't know about you, but with my luck, I'll take certainty over chance any day.

What I find especially amusing is this little line here:

 

putting frames out of the game built around frames and turning it into some lame 3PS Farming Simulator

 

Yes, how dare I call to reward players for playing like badass space ninjas (in a game about badass space ninjas) rather than encouraging them to stand on a box and repeat the perfect Energy Vampire-2xRadial Javelin-Desecrate combo. Truly, my works have made Farming Simulator possible.

Edited by Archwizard
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-snip-

your safety nets got nothing on loot dropping except i assume you want traders to sell resources?

 

traders are fine for me but market already sells resources for plat.

if you want resources to be tradable between players they should just allow them to be tradable which they could do a long time ago and didn't

traders don't cover holes because it's not a substitute but an addition "a+x=/=b+x aswell as a=/=b"

and if its a resource for resource trading model the one with more resources get more resources out of trade still having advantage of low-skill players or players that nuke stuff.

 

also you are missing that it's not about badass space ninjas it's about badass space ninja wizards

 

if you are still going to a specific node even after your change whats the point of your change?

"stealth play = solo play" but "solo play" =/= "stealth play" (with a note that stealth play can be done cooperatively but almost impossible in pubs)

rewarding stealth play where stealth is possible is fine for me, but rewarding soloplay over everything else is not

 

you dont need the flavor of the month build for draco for every single person there, dealing enough damage while staying alive can be done without it. just dont go [0][0][0][0], take at least one vs-armor viable decent leveled weapon and you'll be ok for at least 2 rounds and put aura + some health on your frame to live longer

 

while your idea is decent, it's not applicable in random matchmaking

 

 

Yes, how dare I call to reward players for playing like badass space ninjas (in a game about badass space ninjas) rather than encouraging them to stand on a box and repeat the perfect Energy Vampire-2xRadial Javelin-Desecrate combo. Truly, my works have made Farming Simulator possible.

sry that was a brainfart, lel. i admit i derped

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-snip-

 

Actually the point of the traders was to give you an alternative to get specific items like mods, or trade excess Warframe parts. Resources was going to be the exception, since (with the Casino in the OP) there would already be three alternatives to farming for those.

The safety nets are a "I can't seem to get this to drop" system, which is not an "either/or" with lootcaves or Style soloing.

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Actually the point of the traders was to give you an alternative to get specific items like mods, or trade excess Warframe parts. Resources was going to be the exception, since (with the Casino in the OP) there would already be three alternatives to farming for those.

The safety nets are a "I can't seem to get this to drop" system, which is not an "either/or" with lootcaves or Style soloing.

elaborate what 3 ways that are alternatives to farming via mob kills?

i see a some kind of poker table for resources, that's 1. but its just a more complicated version of trading that while some will enjoy the gameplay using resources for making a bet is probable, but really not needed. this way of making resources multiplies resources for those who got them and not really give more resources to those who got less except for rare cases

extractors? they are bad as it is now, so bad you can even not count them

 

and again your ideas are cool but will lead to further separation of wealthy and poor people

atm if person A has item 2X but no item Y and person B has item 2Y but not X and they can trade, that's a healthy scheme

bets in "casino" work only with one currency, if it will have same system as regular trade where you put on the table all you want,

there is no reason to add poker into the trade mechanic (and also bets would be accepted on a subjective item value like "this guy got 2kkkk nanospores (exaggeration) but i didn't get a single one (exaggeration) so they are uber valuable for me but from his perspective it is a useless junk)

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elaborate what 3 ways that are alternatives to farming via mob kills?

 

Casinos as listed, Extractors for commons and the blueprints from Raids for rares. 

 

Yes, they require resources as a stepping-off point. No, they're not as efficient as going into combat, but they shouldn't be - you shouldn't be able to play Warframe and completely avoid going into missions.

 

just a more complicated version of trading that while some will enjoy the gameplay using resources for making a bet is probable, but really not needed. this way of making resources multiplies resources for those who got them and not really give more resources to those who got less except for rare cases

 

It's not intended to be a trading system - since you're playing against the house, a net gain is being made beyond just the resources being offered by players.

 

The devs could add a trading system if they wanted one, but I specifically wrote in countermeasures to the Casino to prevent players from intentionally meeting up with people and giving them their resources.

 

bets in "casino" work only with one currency

 

You... completely lost me. I said there could be a separation of rarity of resources based on stakes, not that everybody can only offer Nano Spores in one and Control Modules in the other.

 

I think you're making specific assumptions here based on a broad suggestion.

Edited by Archwizard
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Bring the Player, not the Class was a stain in WoW and turned it into a babysitting game about.... I don't even know.  So, hopefully, Warframe steers altogether away from that model.

 

While I do agree with some of your points, I find that using that slogan makes me want to gag.

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Bring the Player, not the Class was a stain in WoW and turned it into a babysitting game about.... I don't even know.  So, hopefully, Warframe steers altogether away from that model.

 

While I do agree with some of your points, I find that using that slogan makes me want to gag.

 

In fairness, Warframe is a completely different game than WoW; the use of the philosophy in WoW was about supplying groups with all of the necessary utility to compete in raids without forcing them to limit themselves. (To those who don't know, it ultimately homogenized many classes in order to make those utilities available.)

 

Here, Warframe is a game that is only concerned with those kinds of utilities as a point of making each class different, and we're only challenging the necessity of Loot/Meta powers.

 

I'd take a 100% chance to create health orbs, ammo, or air tanks on the first cast of Desecrate at the cost of losing horking corpses for cracked sashes any damn day of the week.

 

I've actually written up some ideas about that...

Edited by Archwizard
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Second, a revamp to Transmutation.

 

Because it would remain a fusion-oriented system not unlike leveling a mod in the first place, Simaris' fusion cores would still have a purpose: extra mod energy when researching items of the same polarity.

 

I was worried for a minute that it leaves out mods with any other polarities, but since their revamping how you get stances anyway theres really no worry there. All for it!

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Perhaps I should inflate the Style Kills pool.

 

Presently my main concern is that, after having done some math, the bonuses presented are not enough to make up for the loss of Desecrate/Pilfering Swarm/the Petrify Augment, as the current projections suggest a 3-7x boost to loot upon stacking them (partly depending on whether Pilfering Swarm and the Petrify augment do stack, and partly on the team's Slash damage for Desecrate).

 

Mind, with 7x the loot benefits for a stacking specific comp, that only further exacerbates the issue and justifies DE for having so many loot drop chances below 1%.

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Tbh if the rewards for different missions + types were somewhat close, I would branch out far more to different planets and maps. Unfortunately, the differences are massive between most missions and "farm caves". I tried doing a Mob defense on Ceres. Got about 1/40th of the exp and loot when compared with a Draco run. It was also FAR less fun (maybe Mob defense is just terrible, I don't know. But I would take repetitive Draco over any Mob def mission on any map). 

 

So really I don't think min/maxing would cause new caves to prop up. Not so long as rewards are within the same ball park as each other. 

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Simmaris cores could also be used as the item you have to input in order to get X polarity mod when using transmutation. You fuse the mods as you said, but in order to get the mod you want, you also have to input one of Simmaris cores in order for the mod to be made. like a pre requisite. This could even be used to expand Simmaris instead of him being just another character that barely contributes.

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Warframe has never been about player skill, it will always be about a timesinking powerfantasy for loot. I'm all for being rewarded for player ability, but that isn't the direction DE/ most of the community wishes to take. Not to mention that mechanics such as these would actually require DE to balance their game, which is just an idealized thought at this point.

Edited by dmirtygorachyov
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