Removing Pure Damage Mods

[swizzybeatzjamz]

Serration pressure point heavy calibur and hornet strike are all pure damage mods. Whenever us warframe players make a build I guarantee you one of these mods are located in your build. When a mod becomes mandatory it takes away diversity. There are 8 mods slots and honestly when it comes to primarys you have 6 slots because serration and heavy cal have took the first two places if your anything like me. Which leads me to believe that pure damage mods need to go. ( so does multishot mods but that is for another thread)

The introduction of mods like argon scope. That give you increased crit on headshot is a step in the right direction. It made me play the game differently and gain great results In doing so. Blood rush body count also amazing mods.

My solution to fixing pure damage mods being gone is to buff all weapons as if a max pure damage mod was put into a mod slot. This would help new players so they wouldn't have to rank up a mod to level 10. Allowing them to focus on leveling other mods.

And players like me that already have an max pure damage mod should get a legendary fusion core. So they can max rank another level 10 mod of there choosing.same thing heavy calibur. Of course pressure point shouldn't receive this treatment its like a rank 5 mod.

Removing pure damage mods is would be a step in the right direction to adding build diversity in my eyes.

-swizzy out

[Hellmaker2004]

Heavy Caliber is not a pure damage mod like Serration.

 

Heavy Caliber is a corrupt mod where you sacrifice something to gain something else.

 

Other than that i do agree, it feels pointless to have mods that offer something as +XX% Pure damage, as there are very few instances where one would not use them.

[swizzybeatzjamz]

True but I feel that if you take out serration people will just start slotting heavy calibur as there new serration. That's why I feel it should be taken out aswell

[Firetempest]

This is already a debate within DE. As well with Multishot mods.

Its likely taking so long because they want the solution to not cause the majority of the community to crucify them as its a major power change and enemy re-balance package.

[matrixEXO]

Heavy Caliber is not a pure damage mod like Serration.

 

Heavy Caliber is a corrupt mod where you sacrifice something to gain something else.

 

Other than that i do agree, it feels pointless to have mods that offer something as +XX% Pure damage, as there are very few instances where one would not use them.

 

I'd argue that elemental mods fit the same concept. Sure, the damage scales more or less depending on which target you hit but you still get a damage buff. Should we remove damage components from them as well? This is when things starts to get hard to design around.

[KnightCole]

The higher tier mobs would need to stop taking 3 1/2 mags of headshots from my maxed Soma Prime before we can remove damage mods......

 

Cuz dear god is that annoying....1040 rounds, of which 600 goes into 1 guy's head....

[ClinkzEastwood]

The higher tier mobs would need to stop taking 3 1/2 mags of headshots from my maxed Soma Prime before we can remove damage mods......

 

Cuz dear god is that annoying....1040 rounds, of which 600 goes into 1 guy's head....

What enemy level are you trying to face?

[xCaptainObviousx]

What enemy level are you trying to face?

Just the standard enemies you find after 2 hours in t4 survival. You know, the basic stuff.

[Inmemoratus]

The mod system right now serves as a scaling system disguised as a customization system rather than an actual customization system.

 

They'd have to actually remove all damage mods, not just the basic ones, to give us real choices. Then they'd need to scale the weapons differently. But the problem with that is if you only scale them by rank, the power curve is way shorter. It's just rank 30 instead of multiple formas before it's doing max damage.

 

And then they'd have to replace all the damage mods with actual interesting mods that truly customize the utility of the weapons.

 

It's a ridiculously huge design task. They'll never do it.

[peggisan]

And then they'd have to replace all the damage mods with actual interesting mods that truly customize the utility of the weapons.

 

It's a ridiculously huge design task. They'll never do it.

 

I really hope they do change it. I want to see mods like

 

"Rifle:: Kills increase your next reload speed by 15% up to 75% max."

"Primary/Secondary:: Swapping weapons increases damage by 30% for 10 seconds"

"Pistol:: "If your magazine is more than 75% empty, deal 30% more damage."

"Bow:: "Arrow dropoff is reduced and projectile speed is increased if fully charged for more than 2 seconds." 

[Inmemoratus]

I really hope they do change it. I want to see mods like

 

"Rifle:: Kills increase your next reload speed by 15% up to 75% max."

"Primary/Secondary:: Swapping weapons increases damage by 30% for 10 seconds"

"Pistol:: "If your magazine is more than 75% empty, deal 30% more damage."

"Bow:: "Arrow dropoff is reduced and projectile speed is increased if fully charged for more than 2 seconds." 

 

I actually don't like any of those. They're all obvious choices based on the stats of weapons rather than things that would customize how weapons play.

 

 

"Rifle:: Kills increase your next reload speed by 15% up to 75% max." - Favors large mag weapons, canceling out the drawback of longer reload they tend to have. No real choice here. Put it on things like Soma without thinking about it.

 

"Primary/Secondary:: Swapping weapons increases damage by 30% for 10 seconds" - Rewards you for mindlessly swapping every 10 seconds. No actual gameplay here.

 

"Pistol:: "If your magazine is more than 75% empty, deal 30% more damage." - Favors small mag weapons with short reloads. Useless on large mag weapons.

 

"Bow:: "Arrow dropoff is reduced and projectile speed is increased if fully charged for more than 2 seconds." - Good on all charge based bows ie: everything besides Attica. Not really a customization.

 

It's difficult to make mods that would truly customize how the weapon plays without certain mods being the obvious choice for certain weapons.

[Dakiaris]

This issue is very VERY easily solved but it will take a lot of time which time = money meaning they don't want to do it.

 

Serration is a manditory mod gives 165% weapon damage at max rank as hornet strike is 220% and point blank is 90% *lets use the primed pb which is 165% because lets face it the mod is manditory*

 

Merge the mods total damage in with weapons rank... At rank 0 the weapon does it's base damage and each rank would give a % up to the maximum of the allowed weapon type.

 

Rifles would get 5.5% weapon damage per rank

Side arms would get 7.34 per rank  *changed from 7.3 repeating to .34 to keep it from breaking*

Shotguns would get 5.5% damage per rank          3% if they go with the base non prime version.

 

To combat Heavy cal and magnum force being used in their place they need to change them to some kind of utility such as shots now pierce nulifier bubbles while reducing accuracy by 10% or something similar... As it stands nearly ALL end game builds require heavy cali + serration like the op said. If you are not using both mods you literally kill your damage.

 

 

 

Since it's to hard or them to do something like I suggested though they really should just up the mod count on weapons to 10 since there's always at least 2 mods that are used above 90% of the time.

 

 

 

While they are at it they really need to give us a "augment" slot for warframes that ONLY slots ability augments since you can't really build for them without sacrificing something really important and most augments are kinda not worth the sacrifice.

 

 

*edit*

The damage suggestion I gave was also considering keeping end game intact while also giving new players a bit of a nudge since they have issues getting enough cores to really rank up the damage mods.. This introduces scaling on the damage which allows new players to have a slightly easier time when approaching bosses and stuff on the star chart while also having a minor effect on vet players... Formaing weapons will be the only thing really impacted by this.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Dakiaris

[KnightCole]

What enemy level are you trying to face?

 

The T2 sortie mobs?  By T3, I dont even bother firing back...I am out of ammo on first contact.  I leave the killing to the guys who brought the meta builds and 1 shot entire rooms. 

[ClinkzEastwood]

The T2 sortie mobs?  By T3, I dont even bother firing back...I am out of ammo on first contact.  I leave the killing to the guys who brought the meta builds and 1 shot entire rooms. 

Your gun is terribly modded.

[Inmemoratus]

The T2 sortie mobs?  By T3, I dont even bother firing back...I am out of ammo on first contact.  I leave the killing to the guys who brought the meta builds and 1 shot entire rooms. 

 

The particular T3 sortie you did must have had one of the conditions that makes the enemies super tanky. Either physical enhancement or elemental enhancement. The gun you happened to bring was modded in such a way that it lost a lot of damage against them.

 

Pay attention to the sortie condition and bring an appropriate gun. And if you don't actually have the right gun, bring a frame with an exalted weapon like excalibur or valkyr because their damage is high enough to kill the enemies quickly regardless.

[ZodiacShinryu]

People never seem to think these threads out completely... Removing damage mods by itself is not enough, it also needs to come with enemy reworks. We could also use a large mod overhaul to repurpose a lot of mods that will go missing to give options.

 

Also pure damage mods are not just +damage mods, you will end up removing a large majority of mods:  Damage mods (Serration etc), Damage Type mods (elemental, slash, puncture, impact), Multishot, Reload, and Firerate mods.  All of them add straight to your dps totals without consequence.  I'd even argue that the way most guns are set up that Crit chance and damage along with punch through mods need to go as well.  Id be more ok with elemental mods if they only triggered on a proc but as it stands atm they are just additives.  Corrupted mods for the most part get a pass but nightmare mods do not. While crit mods are indeed a more liberal choice, crit weapons (which are the only weapons where these are useful options) are already generally better performing weapons combined with some of the above damage options.  Punch through in itself is a fine mod that i could see as a choice but the way damage is done makes it just additive damage in groups to increase ammo economy (if damage fell off on targets it would be a slightly more realistic trade).

 

The introduction of mods like argon scope. That give you increased crit on headshot is a step in the right direction. It made me play the game differently and gain great results In doing so. Blood rush body count also amazing mods.

 

Removing pure damage mods is would be a step in the right direction to adding build diversity in my eyes.

Argon Scope is neat along with its crit damage counterpart but at the same time you are probably using a crit weapon where these shine just to push out damage. Blood rush and Body count are also nice mods but melee in itself is a rather limited category and use to be less optimal.  The fact that these mods will only shine on durable frames in any serious content because you need to ramp them up is the trade-off.  At the same time, if you want to go melee heavy these mods along with organ shatter become mandatory just like damage is now.  I suppose you can get a Trin blessing abuse going but that is other far reaching problems of the game.

 

Diversity is what you make it.  While weapons are more restrictive than Frames, there is generally always an optimal build that 90% of the player base is going to flock to... damage meta or not.  People deny diversity more than games usually do, even if Warframe pushes you pretty hard to it.

 

This issue is very VERY easily solved but it will take a lot of time which time = money meaning they don't want to do it.

 

Rifles would get 5.5% weapon damage per rank

Side arms would get 7.34 per rank  *changed from 7.3 repeating to .34 to keep it from breaking*

Shotguns would get 5.5% damage per rank          3% if they go with the base non prime version.

 

To combat Heavy cal and magnum force being used in their place they need to change them to some kind of utility such as shots now pierce nulifier bubbles while reducing accuracy by 10% or something similar... As it stands nearly ALL end game builds require heavy cali + serration like the op said. If you are not using both mods you literally kill your damage.

If this was VERY EASY to solve it would've been done already.  DEScott is working a leveling system that is likely similar to this (he mentioned he was still working on it this last devstream or the one before it). However this at its base doesn't fix the problem either, you are only shifting it.  You can also get similar results by just expanding mods slots to be infinite so that mod points/capacity is the limiting factor to the modding options.  It would be interesting if DE let you equip as many mods as you want even if it was just a week to see the mods that are next in line to be mandatory given space in the current meta. My guess is more elemental mods, ammo economy mods, firerate and reload mods.

 

The only lasting fix to this problem is if they change the enemies as well.  Make it so that we don't need to just throw high damage at them as well as mods that change up how we deal damage and the way the game is played.

[KnightCole]

Your gun is terribly modded.

 

Well, it has a maxed everything, barring Heavy cal, which is like rank 5 cuz I dont want to turn it into Supra accuracy...  Heavy Cal, serration, Splitchamber, Thermite rounds, Wildfire, I think one of the 30% damage mods and then the crit chance and crit damage mod. 

The particular T3 sortie you did must have had one of the conditions that makes the enemies super tanky. Either physical enhancement or elemental enhancement. The gun you happened to bring was modded in such a way that it lost a lot of damage against them.

 

Pay attention to the sortie condition and bring an appropriate gun. And if you don't actually have the right gun, bring a frame with an exalted weapon like excalibur or valkyr because their damage is high enough to kill the enemies quickly regardless.

 

Well back when we had the Gorgon Wraith alert, I brought a Supra all loaded up with Gas damage, which was +75% vs infested and by the last 4 waves I still couldnt kill anything quickly.....I also had fire on it which I think is +25% or +50% vs infested, so I had alot of + infested damage.....

Edited February 8, 2016 by KnightCole

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Fine, but everyone who has a maxed serration mod and maxed damage mods deserve not only the fusion cores back, but every new damage type card that you guys whined about having "mah creative builds"... delivered via the mail system... So they don't have to pray at the RNG alter for them to drop.

And.

The ability to reforma their weapons without any time costs.

And don't say nah, these kind of posts have been crying for a change so you can benefit at the cost of veterans and the time they spent to get there. You can happily bend over and take one for the team by saying we love you vets, thanks for putting up with this nonsense, nobody wants to start you back at ground zero and waste your precious time for all the back seat game designing because maxing a serration card is hard.

Edited February 8, 2016 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[Inmemoratus]

Well, it has a maxed everything, barring Heavy cal, which is like rank 5 cuz I dont want to turn it into Supra accuracy...  Heavy Cal, serration, Splitchamber, Thermite rounds, Wildfire, I think one of the 30% damage mods and then the crit chance and crit damage mod. 

 

Well back when we had the Gorgon Wraith alert, I brought a Supra all loaded up with Gas damage, which was +75% vs infested and by the last 4 waves I still couldnt kill anything quickly.....I also had fire on it which I think is +25% or +50% vs infested, so I had alot of + infested damage.....

 

I mean if the sortie's condition happened to be Elemental Enhancement or back then it was just Elemental Resistance, then gas or fire would not work even against infested. But slashing would still work really well.

 

I am not sure what the damage reduction they get is but it's more than enough to make armor types irrelevant. I'm guessing it's somewhere between 75% and 90% from what I've seen. The nature of damage reduction makes it more of a factor than the damage increases you could potentially get from damage types vs armor types. For example if you do 1000 damage before any of that, and the enemy's armor type is weak to your damage type by 75% then you do 1750. If the sortie condition then reduces that damage type by 75%, you are left with a quarter of 1750 which is only 437.5. Pretty crappy. To overcome 75% damage reduction, you actually need +300% damage. In other words, you need to deal 4x damage to overcome having your damage reduced to 1/4.

 

Definitely gear for the sortie condition first priority.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[KnightCole]

Hmm, just played some sorties this morning, and yeah, the Corpus had extra shields, dear god.........I made the mistake of bringing my Tiberon, I killed like 46 guys in the entire thing, and most were the drones that were a little weaker, and the weapon I used was my Aksomatis....

 

Played in one vs Grineer, it was like 30 rounds per guy......

 

Sorties dont seem to be worth the effort given anyway.  Finally won the one vs Corpus for 25 gold cores......make it 100 and that might be worth it. 

[SeEnCreaTive]

You bring up an interesting point

I'd have to agree to some extent. If everyone puts it on anyways, might as well just remove it.

But there has to be some sort of grindy progression in F2P games to keep people interested. Think of how long it took you get get Serration or Redirection maxed. Soni agree that the removal of these would allow more variety, (something like Eve online modding) but some of the long term progression goals is dropped. It's a rock and a hard place :l

[Inmemoratus]

Hmm, just played some sorties this morning, and yeah, the Corpus had extra shields, dear god.........I made the mistake of bringing my Tiberon, I killed like 46 guys in the entire thing, and most were the drones that were a little weaker, and the weapon I used was my Aksomatis....

 

Played in one vs Grineer, it was like 30 rounds per guy......

 

Sorties dont seem to be worth the effort given anyway.  Finally won the one vs Corpus for 25 gold cores......make it 100 and that might be worth it. 

 

They are easy if you bring the right gear. It just depends on what the sortie condition is.

 

I brought my Synoid Simulor to the enhanced shield one. Magnetic status proc cuts off 75% of their shield so I was able to reasonably kill them since it's a pure magnetic weapon.

 

Another option is to use a pure toxin damage weapon because that damage type completely ignores shields.

 

And of course the most popular option is just play Mag and 1 shot massive hordes with Shield Polarize. But I was able to deal 25% of the damage with my Synoid Simulor despite having 2 Mags on my team today, and my Simulor isn't modded perfectly for popping shields (too much viral damage) so I could have done better.

 

However, if you don't really have many weapons and frames in your collection I highly recommend you use Excalibur or Valkyr. They will always be able to kill stuff.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[Herosupport]

I herd DE is going to have those mods built into the weapons themselves so when they are at rank 30 there base damage will have increase by the amounts of serration, hornet strike, Point blank and pressure point that has my 2 thumbs up and my +1.

 

However I have a maxed Primed Point blank and it goes on all my shotguns so a meager 90% damage increase from rank 0 to rank 30 would not be acceptable to me.

[Vohim]

get rid of normal damage mods like Serration , make weapons increase stats as they rank up up to 100% and then  an additional 50-100% if potato'd .

[HadronVictorioso]

get rid of normal damage mods like Serration , make weapons increase stats as they rank up up to 100% and then  an additional 50-100% if potato'd .

So back to the original damage 1.0...