Removing Pure Damage Mods

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

They simply shouldn't remove them. It's a progression system. Ranking up those mods. And it should stay. It's a neat progression system. I honestly see no point and no benefits to removing damage mods. At all.

You can change number of mod slots on weapons. 2 are mandatory, 6 to customise. You wanna 10 slots?

[SwooceRaiden]

Serration pressure point heavy calibur and hornet strike are all pure damage mods. Whenever us warframe players make a build I guarantee you one of these mods are located in your build. When a mod becomes mandatory it takes away diversity. There are 8 mods slots and honestly when it comes to primarys you have 6 slots because serration and heavy cal have took the first two places if your anything like me. Which leads me to believe that pure damage mods need to go. ( so does multishot mods but that is for another thread)

The introduction of mods like argon scope. That give you increased crit on headshot is a step in the right direction. It made me play the game differently and gain great results In doing so. Blood rush body count also amazing mods.

My solution to fixing pure damage mods being gone is to buff all weapons as if a max pure damage mod was put into a mod slot. This would help new players so they wouldn't have to rank up a mod to level 10. Allowing them to focus on leveling other mods.

And players like me that already have an max pure damage mod should get a legendary fusion core. So they can max rank another level 10 mod of there choosing.same thing heavy calibur. Of course pressure point shouldn't receive this treatment its like a rank 5 mod.

Removing pure damage mods is would be a step in the right direction to adding build diversity in my eyes.

-swizzy out

Warframe has far more build diversity than any other MMO (if you'd really call it that). The vast majority of the genre has generally one build that you're meant to go into. For example, you'd get laughed out of any party if you tried to build a Paladin (Tank, WoW) or White Mage (Healer, FFXIV) as a damage dealer. 

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Here's a simple problem: explain how removing damage mods is better than adding 2 mod slots. If you can't, they shouldn't be removed.

I don't get why devs were considering it. You lose permanent, satisfying progression of ranking up damage mods... And you gain 2 mod slots. And you need to refund tons of stuff, from weapon polarities to legendary cores. Might just add 2 mod slots up to 10. Cause that's what you're doing, except causing trouble in the process.

[Leo17453]

[Hellmaker2004]

Here's a simple problem: explain how removing damage mods is better than adding 2 mod slots. If you can't, they shouldn't be removed.

I don't get why devs were considering it. You lose permanent, satisfying progression of ranking up damage mods... And you gain 2 mod slots. And you need to refund tons of stuff, from weapon polarities to legendary cores. Might just add 2 mod slots up to 10. Cause that's what you're doing, except causing trouble in the process.

 

Satisfying progression. Where, in pumping more cores into a mod that is mandatory?

I would say that removing mandatory mods and bumping up the weapons to match the same statistic would have a better effect since it allows more new players to adjust to the game and easier to join in without feeling worthless. And not all weapons do use the mandatory one + the corrupted version as well. So adding two slots would be way harder to balance than only adding one.

Could they add one slot (Exilus) that could only take Serration etc etc, yes. And it would be easier to design considering reimbursing people for there mods or fixing the issue of the already forma'ed weapons.

 

But there are very obvious reasons why they should simply remove them.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Satisfying progression. Where, in pumping more cores into a mod that is mandatory?

I would say that removing mandatory mods and bumping up the weapons to match the same statistic would have a better effect since it allows more new players to adjust to the game and easier to join in without feeling worthless. And not all weapons do use the mandatory one + the corrupted version as well. So adding two slots would be way harder to balance than only adding one.

Could they add one slot (Exilus) that could only take Serration etc etc, yes. And it would be easier to design considering reimbursing people for there mods or fixing the issue of the already forma'ed weapons.

 

But there are very obvious reasons why they should simply remove them.

That feeling of worthless is what stimulates purchases of platinum. And yes whole game is pouring cores into stuff.

If I were in devs shoes, I would leave the system as is and add more alternative damage mods and crit mods. Golden and primed, 10 rank ones. I understand pc have some already?

[----Fenrir----]

You want to remove all useful weapon mods? I mean damage mods include far more than just Serration.

 

- direct damage mods (Serration and so on)

- Multishot mods

- Fire rate mods

- Critical related mods

 

Even reload speed, punch through, and status mods can lead to a direct DPS increase. So the real question is, after removing all those mods, what are people supposed to put in all those empty mod slots? Because there will be virtually nearly nothing left.

[GeoffFromAccounting]

You want to remove all useful weapon mods? I mean damage mods include far more than just Serration.

 

- direct damage mods (Serration and so on)

- Multishot mods

- Fire rate mods

- Critical related mods

 

Even reload speed, punch through, and status mods can lead to a direct DPS increase. So the real question is, after removing all those mods, what are people supposed to put in all those empty mod slots? Because there will be virtually nearly nothing left.

 

-direct damage mods are pointless as they just take up modding space

-multishot is already getting re-worked so it's a lower chance and consumes an extra bullet when it procs (from what I've read around the forums, someone correct me if I'm wrong)

-fire rate comes with the downside of lower ammo efficiency, so it's not a direct upgrade

-critical related mods only work on specific weapons (though personally I believe the crit system needs a touch up anyway, but that's for a different topic and date altogether)

 

by your logic you may as well remove modding as a whole, since everything you add would be a direct DPS increase. We're not asking to remove anything that boosts DPS in any remote way, we're asking to remove pure damage mods so mods that normally would not see light of day (reload speed, fire rate, status mods .etc) can actually be used without gimping our effectiveness.

[----Fenrir----]

-direct damage mods are pointless as they just take up modding space

-multishot is already getting re-worked so it's a lower chance and consumes an extra bullet when it procs (from what I've read around the forums, someone correct me if I'm wrong)

-fire rate comes with the downside of lower ammo efficiency, so it's not a direct upgrade

-critical related mods only work on specific weapons (though personally I believe the crit system needs a touch up anyway, but that's for a different topic and date altogether)

 

by your logic you may as well remove modding as a whole, since everything you add would be a direct DPS increase. We're not asking to remove anything that boosts DPS in any remote way, we're asking to remove pure damage mods so mods that normally would not see light of day (reload speed, fire rate, status mods .etc) can actually be used without gimping our effectiveness.

 

You don't get it, all that would accomplish is replacing one mandatory mod with another one.

 

No more serration? Well, then it's another elemental mod. No more elemental mods? Well then a crit mod. No more crit mods? Well then lets increase fire rate. There will always be the next best thing that gives the highest DPS boost that will become the new mandatory choice.

 

It will not improve choice and freedom when it comes to moding weapons. There would be so few useful mods left that everyone will end up with the same mod setup.

Edited February 9, 2016 by ----Fenrir----

[KnightCole]

Warframe has far more build diversity than any other MMO (if you'd really call it that). The vast majority of the genre has generally one build that you're meant to go into. For example, you'd get laughed out of any party if you tried to build a Paladin (Tank, WoW) or White Mage (Healer, FFXIV) as a damage dealer. 

 

No it doesnt, every gun uses basically the same loadouts, barring a few elemental changes based on the mobs you fight, and even that is pretty much fixed......

 

MMOs all have meta, and its actually annoying, since the game also seems to be balanced around the meta, which just makes the game frustrating, since its like go meta or go home.  They make hte mobs obscenely strong so only those with the meta can win effectively, they make hte mobs 1 shot you so you bring the meta to kill fast....yeah, Warframe is no different, higher lvl mobs, its just 600 rounds for 1 of them, 2 shots for you, even through the new Rhino Iron Skin, 5000 some odd iron skin and a tier 2 sortie axe chick like 4 shot me. 

 

I wish games would figure out if they are going to be 3 shot city, or they are going to make you tough as F***.  Warframe seems to be in some mixed state, where sometimes, you cant die, other times the mobs just 2 shot you.....I hate that S#&$.

[GeoffFromAccounting]

You don't get it, all that would accomplish is replacing one mandatory mod with another one.

 

No more serration? Well, then it's another elemental mod. No more elemental mods? Well then a crit mod. No more crit mods? Well then lets increase fire rate. There will always be the next best thing that gives the highest DPS boost that will become the new mandatory choice.

 

It will not improve choice and freedom when it comes to moding weapons. There would be so few useful mods left that everyone will end up with the same mod setup.

 

at best we can fit two elemental combinations on weapons, three if the weapon has a default element combo, this is due to elemental incompatibilities and we only have so many mods to boost our current elements (we have one 90% elemental damage mod for each element, and one 60% elemental damage and 60% status chance mod for each element), and again I've already stated that crit mods only work on some weapons and that the crit system needs a touch up (again, another topic another time), and I've already said that fire rate also lowers ammo efficiency, which is a good trade of for some people, not so much for others. Will there always be mandatory mods? Yes of course, it'd damn near impossible for that not to be the case, however we can lower the amount of mandatory mods. 

 

As to your last statement, doesn't everyone run around with the same or similar build now? Just put on Serration and Split Chamber on and change element to whatever faction your facing, maybe add in a crit chance/damage mod if the weapon has a sufficient crit chance, same deal with pistols except also add in Lethal Torrent for most weapons. Sure some weapons require a different build than others, but mostly the builds are incredibly similar to each other. Very few weapons have a slot to spare for mods that aren't damage/crit/elemental mods, and often most weapons don't have any slots left after that, removing mods like Serration and changing multishot will free up one or two slots for stuff like fire rate (which isn't a direct upgrade) or reload speed

[Dobermann92]

Inb4 multishot nerf.....

 

I agree with the fact that serration, hornet strike, pressure point and point blank are mandatory mods (I rarely use heavy caliber because of the accuracy loss), but devs are already working on this problem.

[Soketsu]

and for my lvl 7 serration on my sentinnel ? what do I get after spending some core for it ? does the kubrow will get the same treatment too ?

[eRiffnul]

But the problem is no matter how this situation is resolved there will always be mandatory mods, people will find a way with these flexi builds to find the strongest output of damage and then everyone will just copy it and then all of a sudden you have mandatory mods again.

[OfPowerOfWant]

Perhaps a "Gold/Blue" Forma variant that added additional slots to a weapon

 

Of course balancing, acquisition and limits would have to be determined

 

I'm sure RNG would be happy to dangle a new carrot :)

[ZodiacShinryu]

at best we can fit two elemental combinations on weapons, three if the weapon has a default element combo, this is due to elemental incompatibilities and we only have so many mods to boost our current elements (we have one 90% elemental damage mod for each element, and one 60% elemental damage and 60% status chance mod for each element), and again I've already stated that crit mods only work on some weapons and that the crit system needs a touch up (again, another topic another time), and I've already said that fire rate also lowers ammo efficiency, which is a good trade of for some people, not so much for others. Will there always be mandatory mods? Yes of course, it'd damn near impossible for that not to be the case, however we can lower the amount of mandatory mods. 

 

As to your last statement, doesn't everyone run around with the same or similar build now? Just put on Serration and Split Chamber on and change element to whatever faction your facing, maybe add in a crit chance/damage mod if the weapon has a sufficient crit chance, same deal with pistols except also add in Lethal Torrent for most weapons. Sure some weapons require a different build than others, but mostly the builds are incredibly similar to each other. Very few weapons have a slot to spare for mods that aren't damage/crit/elemental mods, and often most weapons don't have any slots left after that, removing mods like Serration and changing multishot will free up one or two slots for stuff like fire rate (which isn't a direct upgrade) or reload speed

You still don't understand. As Lord Gremlin. Fenrir and I have said that just removing the basic damage mods isn't enough. All you are doing is shifting the problem. For each of the base damage mods you remove you basically gain 1 slot that will then just be another mod that increases damage.  If that is all that you want to see DE could give you more mod slots and not touch any mods.

 

I don't think you understand what elemental mods do. They add damage right on top of base damage of the weapon. Yes you can only have 2 elements on a weapon but 2 combined elements encompass all 4 elements. You can use every elemental mod to increase your damage just like basic damage mods.

For example, if a weapon has a combined total of 100 damage we can use all 4 elemental mods (2 per element 90% and 60% for a total of 150%) for say radiation and viral.  So each element will add 150 damage to the weapons damage and with all 8 mods you will add 600 damage to the weapon directly for a total of 700 damage.  You just gain 7x base damage with just elements that you can modify for factions at your discretion.

Is this the best build? Probably not but the only thing stopping you from stacking elements like this is slots which you'll gain some if basic damage mods are removed. This isnt going to give incentive to put in reload or status proc or anything like that. The only thing that has changed is that basic damage mods aren't boosting the base damage for elemental mods too (realistically just lowering overall damage we put out with no new gameplay options).  Rifles and shotguns have 3 elements mods (heat) or pistiols (cold) that can stacked in this way along with slashing/puncture/impact since guns are generally set up heavily in favor of 1 damage type for similar results (multishot, punchthrough if you just want to keep 2 elements). There are no downside to any these mods.

 

Also Fire Rate is a direct upgrade to dps. Fire Rate does not equal lowered ammo efficiency. That might be true if if adding fire rate lowered damage per bullet but it doesn't.  You are simply adding more bullets in the same time frame.  Can it lead to more ammo problems? Yes, if you miss a lot but that's not how trade offs are considered.  If you never miss a shot you get the max boost from the mod. Reload is an indirect boost to dps by lowering the amount of down time between clips.  There isn't a downside to these mods (except firerate which is player error not mod choice).

 

As far as crit goes... crit weapons are currently the most diverse weapons because they have the options everyone wants.  But by removing basic damage mods they become less diverse because generally the trade off is crit mods or elemental mods.  Without damage mods the option is that much simpler... both.  The problem with the crit system in itself is that crit weapons have the best of both worlds with high crit chance and damage. Where non-crit weapons have low chance and damage but relatively the same base damage as crit weapons.. Realistically lower crit weapons should have higher crit damage to warrant the option to build for it as a pay off.

 

But TLDR This is moot because you answered your own question "Will there always be mandatory mods? Yes of course, it'd damn near impossible for that not to be the case, however we can lower the amount of mandatory mods."

Yes you lowered the the number of mandatory mods only for the next mods in the hierarchy that didn't make it into builds simply because there wasn't enough space to take their place to become the new mandatory mods.  There will still be the same amount of mandatory mods for a given build.  If you truly want build diversity we will need to scrap nearly every mod and start looking at how PVP mods are set up.

[KnightCole]

I like the ideas that mention the guns gaining power as we level them up.  Then Forma's give further increases, but at a slightly reduced rate to a max of 8 forma.  I would also love to see a weapon Exilus slot, so we can put useless mods like ammo drum in them. 

[(XBOX)ThatsFine9]

This wouldn't solve anything. If you are looking at it from a pure damage output perspective, there will always be mods that are "mandatory." If the pure damage mods are removed and you're worried about keeping up damage wise with Joe schmoe, then you'll need fire rate and reload speed. Hen those will be mandatory on every build and people will cry about that. What about fire rate on bows and other charge weapons, that is pretty much mandatory. An ev trin for any number of missions is essentially mandatory. No matter what happens there will be a meta, some combination that works best. It may not be there best by a long shot, but it will be the best. As far as saying the new mods are a step in the right direction, I bet you'll have blood rush and body count on every melee weapon, thus becoming mandatory. I'm open for a suitable rework as I have enjoyed most reworks lately, but something will always be seen as mandatory given the nature of the game (kill everything as fast as possible). Something else to consider if they were to refund fully ranked damage mods is the amount of creds we pumped in to leveling them. Sure, they are easy enough to come by, but still, spend all those creds to get a r10 serration to have it refunded for cores, then spend x amount of creds to use those cores. Would be a nice refund should it happen.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Let's agree that damage mods need to be in the game and we need more variety on them.

Multishot they already rebalancing. It probably should be mandatory only on some weapons.

[swizzybeatzjamz]

I completely agree that there will always be a best build I'm am simply implying that removing pure damage mods is a small step in the right direction to removing some mandatory mods and increasing player choice

[----Fenrir----]

Multishot they already rebalancing. It probably should be mandatory only on some weapons.

 

Yes, but that will probably take a long time. Because just changing the mod alone won't do. It will require weapon re-balancing as well. For example the idea to make multishot use more ammo per shot would barely make a difference for weapons with good ammo efficiency while weapons that already suffer from poor ammo efficiency would be hit hard.

 

For the Vaykor Marelok or the Lex Prime for example -- already among the best secondary weapons-- using up more ammo per shot would make no difference. You virtually never run out of ammo with those. Other weapons on the hand would be unable to use multishot without running out of ammo in seconds.

 

Balancing is complicated, small changes can have huge implications.

[Inmemoratus]

Multishot being mandatory is fine because those are rare mods. It's part of your overall account progression. Once you find a multishot mod you're suddenly way more powerful. I think it's intended that way.

 

But anyway for basic damage mods I have an idea. Instead of removing them, add a new slot for them and treat them like stances. They give you more mod energy instead of costing it. Now the long term progression of ranking them up doesn't get bottlenecked by formas and it also reduces how much you need formas in general.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[Kaidinah]

This issue is very VERY easily solved but it will take a lot of time which time = money meaning they don't want to do it.

 

Serration is a manditory mod gives 165% weapon damage at max rank as hornet strike is 220% and point blank is 90% *lets use the primed pb which is 165% because lets face it the mod is manditory*

 

Merge the mods total damage in with weapons rank... At rank 0 the weapon does it's base damage and each rank would give a % up to the maximum of the allowed weapon type.

 

Rifles would get 5.5% weapon damage per rank

Side arms would get 7.34 per rank  *changed from 7.3 repeating to .34 to keep it from breaking*

Shotguns would get 5.5% damage per rank          3% if they go with the base non prime version.

this is definitely a good starting point.

[Azathoth0013]

I completely agree that there will always be a best build I'm am simply implying that removing pure damage mods is a small step in the right direction to removing some mandatory mods and increasing player choice

 

 

So once again we're at this argument; "lets remove choices so we can have more choices" (see where the logic breaks down?). you know, I'm down if they wanna rebalance damage mods, to be somewhat less significant, but complete removal is asinine. What about weapons that have options as far as WHICH damage type you're doing? For example (and here's a preemptive piss off, it's my build, you don't have to use it), I prefer using slash damage on my War, over impact (I have my reasons, and I'm not obligated to explain). Basically, what you're suggesting forces me to go with the meta impact build, due to removal of damage mods like Buzzkill. The only reason these mods are considered madatory is because of their effectiveness, Honestly, I'm glad multishot is getting reworked, they're expensive mods, and there's usually something else on weapons, I could mod for, but to remove direct damage mods, ultimately is just gonna screw over veterans, and unorthodox players, myself counting as both. Frankly, it just sounds like ya'll don't wanna do the core farming.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Azathoth0013

[swizzybeatzjamz]

I don't believe you read my thread with my chànge pure damage mods like serration and pressure point will become innate features of weapons. Therefore freeing up a mod slot. Enlighten me on how that will hurt your unorthodox builds @Azathoth0013 . Actually that change would help ur builds