Paris Or Dread - Which Do You Prefer?

[JefPlays]

I'm just wondering because I have both, and I'm curious as to whether people prefer one over the other.

Personally, I'm leaning more towards the Dread. Why? Because it has a whole ton of benefits versus the Paris with only one major downside (one which I'm starting to doubt - the Dread can headshot Corpus boxheads without an AP mod, so does it truly have no armor ignore?)

So, what do you think?

[Renathy]

Yes, the Dread has armor penetration.

[sambarpowder]

I like the Dread better, it scales far better than the Paris

[TheFlyingKnight]

It does not ignore armor like the paris -.-

 

But dread is better against infested, paris better vs corpus/grineer.

[YTakuyaY]

Here are some long posts on the wiki, regarding the topic on Dread vs Paris. I was curious about this myself. These are long reads, so grab your drinks. :3

 

 

 

First post:

 

Here's the thing about the Dread vs. Paris. If both weapons crit, your looking at 150 vs. 300 damage. That means on crit, the Dread does double damage. The enemy's armor would need to be 50% to make the Paris as good. Unfortunately, basically every enemy hits beyond this armor once the lvl reaches 80's and up. 

 

Looking at the direct damage, the Paris wins. But the problem the ENTIRE Warframe community seems to have is that they only look at the base damage. They don't take elemental damage into account.

 

The thing is that every enemy has a different resistance for each element, and the Paris armor ignore DOES NOT affect elemental damage. Because the Dread's elemental damage scales off of a base that's 50% higher, the Dread's elemental damage does far more damage. Do this simple calculation: a paris and dread both crit on an enemy and both of them have a 60% AP mod on. In terms of critdamage(base(enemy armor) + elemental), the paris will deal 1.5(100(1) + 60) for 240 damage. The Dread will deal 2(150(x) + 90). That means the enemy's armor (x) would have to be 20% (or 0.2) before the Dread would do less damage than the Paris.

 

When I realized this, I also realized that the more elemental damage you have on the Dread, the more armor the enemy would need to make up for it. Since the enemy's resistances to elements would be same on both weapons, the Dread has an innate bonus from it's higher base damage and it's higher crit ratio. Theoretically, the elemental damage on the Dread would do more damage than the Paris even if the enemy armor reduced the base damage to 0. To find the magnitude of elemental damage you would need to reach this point, take graphing calculator and compare the Paris' equation 1.5(100 + x) to the Dread equation 2(0 + 1.5x). These equations COMPLETELY nullify the Dread's base damage and shows the elemental : base damage ratio you would in % on the x variable. They intersect at x = 100, which means that if your elemental damage magnitude is %100 of your base (i.e. your base and elemental damage is split 50/50), your dread will match the Paris in damage with the exact same mods AND assuming the enemy's armor COMPLETELY negates the Dread's base damage. If you do more elemental damage than base damage (which can be EASILY achieved with a lvl AP mod and any other lvl 5 elemental mod, picking the right elements against the right faction boosts the elemental magnitude even more) than your Dread's elemental damage will excede the Paris base and elemental damage COMBINED.

 

In conclusion, with maxed mods, your Dread will do more damage in every scenario simply because it's base stats scale elemental damage so much better than the Paris. Note that only one enemy in the game can scale enough armor to reduce the Dread's damage to 0, so the Dread does SIGNIFICANTLY more damage to every lvl 100 enemy in the game. The Paris armor ignore simply is not enough to counter the far superior stats on the Dread. If you still don't believe the Dread is better, have fun doing less damage with the Paris.

 

 

 

Second post:

 

After a while of using them, I think the Dread is in fact a little stronger than the Paris, and here's why. If your still personally debating on which weapon you should devote your resources to, I hope this helps. Otherwise, this is going to look unnecessarily long-winded.

 

Some people have claimed that it's a faction difference: that the Dread is better against infested and the Paris is better against everything else. That assumption is based on ONLY taking enemy resistances into account and not actually factoring in the innate advantages of the Dread. So obviously the Paris will look better if you only take its advantages into account and not the Dread's.

 

First off: more base damage. 50% more base damage. That means that not only your direct damage, but your elemental mods will sacle 50% better. The same AP mod on the Dread will do 50% more damage than its counterpart on the Paris simply because the base damage is higher. 

 

Secondly, the armor on most enemies (except heavies)  reduces damage by 33%. That drops the Dread's base to 100, where the Paris is already at. That means that against non heavy enemies, you can hit with more damage on the Dread because the base is equal but its mods will do more damage.

 

Third, the Dread flight time is faster and more direct, making it easier to hit weak spots. Weak spots are not armored and apply direct damage multipliers. A paris hitting a headshot will deal 200 damage, whereas a Dread will deal 300 damage. A big part of the Dread's ability to outdamage the Paris is hitting weak spots.

 

Fourth and most importantly, the crit damage on the paris has a 1.5 multiplier whereas the Dread has a 2.0 multiplier. That means the bonus damage from citical hits is TWICE as big on the Dread as it is on the Paris.  Critical hits are the Dread's bread and butter when you hit T3 runs or wave 30+ defense missions. Also critical hit multipliers are calculated off the final damage of the shot, which means the bonus crit damage will not be affected by armor (however the shot it's basing the calculation off will be affected by armor and still suffer some reduced damage). If you get a headshot at base and both weapons crit, the paris will do 300 damage and the Dread will do 600.

 

So to sum up, the Dread simply scales better. The Paris' saving grace is it's ability to do consistent damage to heavy enemies regardless of hit location. However, on crit the Dread has a 50% damage advantage, and on a weakspot the Dread has another 50% damage advantage. That means the Dread is better with crit builds and on skilled shots. However, if you get a crit AND a weakspot at the same time, the Dread is literally doing double damage with the same mods. When I headshot lvl 85 heavy gunners, I break 10K damage on my dread occasionally (that's a headshot and both shots from Split Chamber criting for 4K + 1K elemental each) with a trigger pull. The Paris simply cannot reach that damage threshold in my experience.

[LazyKnight]

The only thing about dread is it is made to shot weak points where Paris lets you be lazy and just body shoot. The other poster is correct the dread scales better. I have one 3 polarities and best mods it can kill basically anything up to level 100 in 1-3 hits. The math is heavily in favor of a dread when doing a critical damage mod build it does 4.4 damage with mods. There are only 2 times that a dread would ever lose and that is on a level 70-90 medium grinner and a level 120-130 heavy gunner. On all other factions Dread wins easily and has no contests. Grineer just become immune to everything that is not AP damage by level 82? and for heavy gunners level 130

 

Dread does slashing damage type and  not normal type but doesn't ignore armor. This lets it hit crewmen's head. Tested it and am 99% certain about being able to hit their head.

Edited June 28, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Chronodroid]

I recently built both, and will try paris first (because dread seems to have an advantage) and mod it right, but then I'll use the Dread and see if I get the BOOM feeling :D

[philleapa]

Considering all the posts above and the wiki posts everyone will say the dread is better either from just looking at stats or doing damage scaling calculations, keyword there is calculations meaning you aren't going out and getting the enemy of that level and seeing how your Paris or Dread does against that enemy but look at it from this way, the dread is mean to hit weak spots and has an innate 50% Ap damage and deals 3x damage to LIGHT infested so anything non ancient and ancients really become very common on high level defense missions eventually that 50% Ap damage will be nothing compared to the full on Innate armour ignore coming from the Paris, and with the posts saying you do more damage with the paris that is being on low level enemies aka not lvl 100+ where they start to become immune to just about all elemental damage except Ap of course so eventually the Paris outclasses the Dread but it really depends how you're gonna use if you think you can account for travel time and enemy movement and be able to hit weak spots all the time then by all means go for the dread but if you know you won't be scoring 8/10 on weak spots then you're better off with the paris and eventually when enemies levels get higher and higher the dread just becomes plain obsolete as their armour rises tremendously same with their elemental resittance with no matter how much scaling done immunity is immunity.(not counting Ap of course)

[Renathy]

It does not ignore armor like the paris -.-

 

How does it not ignore armor if I can shot Corpus's heads and deal 300 damage and 600 crit.?

[LazyKnight]

How does it not ignore armor if I can shot Corpus's heads and deal 300 damage and 600 crit.?

It is not armor ignore. It is slashing damage just like a gram. It scales differently than normal damage that's why a dread does 100 damage on a grineer head but all damage mods scale of 150 damage. I was curious so I tested it on a bunch of NPC.

 

 

 

Considering all the posts above and the wiki posts everyone will say the dread is better either from just looking at stats or doing damage scaling calculations, keyword there is calculations meaning you aren't going out and getting the enemy of that level and seeing how your Paris or Dread does against that enemy but look at it from this way, the dread is mean to hit weak spots and has an innate 50% Ap damage and deals 3x damage to LIGHT infested so anything non ancient and ancients really become very common on high level defense missions eventually that 50% Ap damage will be nothing compared to the full on Innate armour ignore coming from the Paris, and with the posts saying you do more damage with the paris that is being on low level enemies aka not lvl 100+ where they start to become immune to just about all elemental damage except Ap of course so eventually the Paris outclasses the Dread but it really depends how you're gonna use if you think you can account for travel time and enemy movement and be able to hit weak spots all the time then by all means go for the dread but if you know you won't be scoring 8/10 on weak spots then you're better off with the paris and eventually when enemies levels get higher and higher the dread just becomes plain obsolete as their armour rises tremendously same with their elemental resittance with no matter how much scaling done immunity is immunity.(not counting Ap of course)

An ancient feet never scale even at level 500 NPC a Paris user should always hit the feet. Most corpus do not scale at all only the crewmen bodies scale but their heads never do.

Edited June 28, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Ixziga]

EDIT: sorry for formatting issues. Did a slight tweak to make it more readable. Hopefully there are no problems.

 

Hello, I am Ixziga and I'm the one who posted the wiki comment under the Dread claiming that the Dread's elemental damage alone would do more damage than the base and elemental combined for the Paris. I posted it anonymously on the wiki because lately there has been a surge of videos from the Marcuito311 channel making some hair-brained claims while ignoring the math. I tried to comment and offer a quick bit of math to show why he was wrong, but got blocked from commenting on his channel altogether (no cursing, insults, or attitude. I was blocked simply because I disagreed with him). I moved to the wiki because I didn't want people to blindly listen the advice of someone who was wrong because there weren't any other solid opinions out there. Once I moved to the wiki, someone decided to copy-paste my findings on the forums and a few weeks later I started to see some people quote my post when it came to that discussion. I can't prove it's mine since I posted it anonymously, but that doesn't matter since I'm here to seal the deal once and for all on the debate (hopefully). The Following charts compare the Dread to the Paris assuming they both follow the same build (split chamber, point strike, vital sense, serration, stormbringer, hellfire, cryo rounds, piercing hit; ALL MAXED). Damage calculations are based on lvl 100 enemies using the wiki damage vulnerabilities chart as reference. What I've found is that the Dread does indeed do more damage to virtually all enemy types in the game at lvl 100. Although the Paris is STILL better against some enemies, This shows that the Dread is a much safer choice in most situations - and ALWAYS does more damage on weak spots.

 

Grineer Light

Head

Winner: Dread

Margin: +100%

Body

Winner: Dread

+100%

 

Grineer Medium

 

Head

Winner: Dread

Margin: +28.6%

Body

Winner: Paris

Margin: +5.56%

 

Grineer Heavy

 

Head

Winner: Dread

Margin: +51.1%

Body

Winner: Dread

Margin: +32.1%

 

Corpus Crewman

 

Head

Winner: Dread

Margin: +100%

Body

Winner: Dread

Margin: +44%

 

Corpus Moa

 

Midsection(back)

Winner: Dread

Margin: +116.9%

Gun

Winner: Dread

Margin: +65.2%

Legs

Winner: Dread

Margin: +95.9%

 

Corpus Osprey

 

Body

Winner: Dread

Margin: +95.9%

 

Infested Charger

 

Head

Winner: Dread

Margin: +500%

Body

Winner: Dread

Margin: +500%

 

Infested Walker

 

Head

Winner: Dread

Margin: +606.3%

Body

Winner: Dread

Margin: +500%

 

Infested Ancient

 

Lower leg/arm

Winner: Dread

Margin: +100%

Head

Winner: Dread

Margin: +9.09%

Body

Winner: Paris

Margin: +33.3%

 

As always, thanks for reading :)

Edited July 11, 2013 by Ixziga

[Grulos]

EDIT: sorry for formatting issues. Did a slight tweak to make it more readable. Hopefully there are no problems.

 

Hello, I am Ixziga and I'm the one who posted the wiki comment under the Dread claiming that the Dread's elemental damage alone would do more damage than the base and elemental combined for the Paris. I posted it anonymously on the wiki because lately there has been a surge of videos from the Marcuito32 channel making some hair-brained claims while ignoring the math. I tried to comment and offer a quick bit of math to show why he was wrong, but got blocked from commenting on his channel altogether (no cursing, insults, or attitude. I was blocked simply because I disagreed with him). I moved to the wiki because I didn't want people to blindly listen the advice of someone who was wrong because there weren't any other solid opinions out there. Once I moved to the wiki, someone decided to copy-paste my findings on the forums and a few weeks later I started to see some people quote my post when it came to that discussion. I can't prove it's mine since I posted it anonymously, but that doesn't matter since I'm here to seal the deal once and for all on the debate (hopefully). The Following charts compare the Dread to the Paris assuming they both follow the same build (split chamber, point strike, vital sense, serration, stormbringer, hellfire, cryo rounds, piercing hit; ALL MAXED). Damage calculations are based on lvl 100 enemies using the wiki damage vulnerabilities chart as reference. What I've found is that the Dread does indeed do more damage to virtually all enemy types in the game at lvl 100. Although the Paris is STILL better against some enemies, This shows that the Dread is a much safer choice in most situations - and ALWAYS does more damage on weak spots.

 

Grineer Light

Head

Winner: Dread

Margin: +100%

Body

Winner: Dread

+100%

 

Grineer Medium

 

Head

Winner: Dread

Margin: +28.6%

Body

Winner: Paris

Margin: +5.56%

 

Grineer Heavy

 

Head

Winner: Dread

Margin: +51.1%

Body

Winner: Dread

Margin: +32.1%

 

Corpus Crewman

 

Head

Winner: Dread

Margin: +100%

Body

Winner: Dread

Margin: +44%

 

Corpus Moa

 

Midsection(back)

Winner: Dread

Margin: +116.9%

Gun

Winner: Dread

Margin: +65.2%

Legs

Winner: Dread

Margin: +95.9%

 

Corpus Osprey

 

Body

Winner: Dread

Margin: +95.9%

 

Infested Charger

 

Head

Winner: Dread

Margin: +500%

Body

Winner: Dread

Margin: +500%

 

Infested Walker

 

Head

Winner: Dread

Margin: +606.3%

Body

Winner: Dread

Margin: +500%

 

Infested Ancient

 

Lower leg/arm

Winner: Dread

Margin: +100%

Head

Winner: Dread

Margin: +9.09%

Body

Winner: Paris

Margin: +33.3%

 

As always, thanks for reading :)

Another, but scientifically proven fact, that the Paris NEEDS to be buffed. The 2 enemy types the Paris does more damage to do not make a difference.

[philleapa]

Okay now that i have the snipetron vandal it puts both bows to rest.

[Phoenix86]

Vandaltron wins

[philleapa]

Vandaltron wins

Agreed. super fast reload rate maxed out mag capacity of 8 at 20%, super mega ultra awesome zoom, and the fact that it shows seniority is just a bonus.

[Ixziga]

Okay now that i have the snipetron vandal it puts both bows to rest.

Yeah I never claimed either bow was the strongest weapon. I was just showing that the Dread is in fact an upgrade of the Paris, as are all the Stalker weapon versions

[Atlas_Smirked]

Can someone compare the Snipetron Vandal to the Dread? It does:

1) The same type of elemental damage

2) More base damage

3) Faster Firing rate

4) Larger Magazine (obviously)

[Xievie]

Vandaltron wins

Agreed. super fast reload rate maxed out mag capacity of 8 at 20%, super mega ultra awesome zoom, and the fact that it shows seniority is just a bonus.

[...]

 

This is a "Paris Or Dread" thread, not a "Paris Or Dread Or Snipetron Vandal" thread.

It doesn't make you cool to post a weapon you believe it better in a thread where it has no place in.

[Ixziga]

Can someone compare the Snipetron Vandal to the Dread? It does:

1) The same type of elemental damage

2) More base damage

3) Faster Firing rate

4) Larger Magazine (obviously)

I haven't crunched the numbers that much between the two but I'm pretty sure the Vandal does have a higher dps and worse ammo economy. The higher rate of fire is nice but the dps always falls off once you start to reload. That's one thing I've always liked about the bows and kunais.

[Laecerelius]

On a related tangent, would Despair's higher base damage mitigate the Kunai's armor ignore or do they have similar enough base damage that it's more of a toss-up than the Paris vs. Dread comparison?

[Glory]

I prefer Paris over Dread. I kinda like the fact that you really need some skills to shoot far away targets with Paris due to its projectile drop. Dread is a beast when it comes to light infested, I admit that. But the fact that highly modded Paris just devastates the Grineer and Corpus and even high level Ancients, makes it far superior to Dread in my eyes. But of course you need to hit the weakpoints of said enemies.

[Ixziga]

Just wanted to update the situation. Marcuito311 basically redid his video comparing the Dread and Paris and the only difference is that now instead of saying the Paris is better against lvl 85 enemies, he's bumped the number up to 200. The only way anything in this game can do damage to an enemy that high is if the enemy does not scale any armor whatsoever. This is the case with some enemies, but most enemies will only take armor piercing damage by this point. Against lvl 200 enemies, the Paris will deal more damage to anything that's not a light grineer or moa bird. But honestly, if your going to bump the number up to 200 (which is a level only possible in very high defense waves) don't use a bow. Bows never excelled at defense missions to begin with. I'm not trying to skirt around the topic, the Paris is better against lvl 200 enemies. I just find it funny that he redid the video to  bump the benchmark up to 200.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Ixziga

[Luneth]

Dread's higher base damage scales with the damage mods on it equaling for massive damage. 
However, anything above Tier 2 Void levels the Paris is better due to insane amount of armor enemies start getting.

[Ixziga]

Dread's higher base damage scales with the damage mods on it equaling for massive damage. 

However, anything above Tier 2 Void levels the Paris is better due to insane amount of armor enemies start getting.

If you look at the previous posts, the Dread does better up to lvl 100, which encompasses not only t2 but also t3

[Vsuchinoko]

Another, but scientifically proven fact, that the Paris NEEDS to be buffed. The 2 enemy types the Paris does more damage to do not make a difference.

The Dread IS intended to be a rare upgrade from the Paris. In fact, all of the Stalker weapons are supposed to appear 'Legendarily' powerful. The Paris and Dread are both tedious and dreadful to use though for some players, and that just might be the case. Bows aren't for everyone, but they may need to be buffed to be as good as even a Braton because I'd prefer to use that instead.

 

Even though its kind of weird to get a Paris because you KNOW that the Dread is better, it makes sense that the Dread SHOULD be better. It is more rare and harder to acquire.

[CitizenV]

On a related tangent, would Despair's higher base damage mitigate the Kunai's armor ignore or do they have similar enough base damage that it's more of a toss-up than the Paris vs. Dread comparison?

I assume this is question is related to common misconception driven by what's on the wiki. Despair deals armor piercing damage, and that is a type of armor ignoring damage (there are currently 4 types that usually ignore armor). In fact, armor piercing will ignore armor on Grineer Commanders and Seekers while Physics Impact, what Kunai deals, will not. However, damage types that ignore armor also can have multipliers against certain enemies. That's why armor piercing does reduced damaged to light infested; they have a 0.5x multiplier for it. Conversely, armor piercing also deals more damage on Corpus headshots and to medium Grineer.

 

Anyway, back to your question. Despair is the clear winner of the two. Yes it will deal less damage on light infested, but at the moment, they are easily killable even with that damage reduction.

Edited July 11, 2013 by CitizenV