Feedback: Cash Shop, the state of F2P in Warframe, the future.

[Ced23Ric]

Oh hai! ~a lolcat waves with a handful of dollars~

Today, I'd like to poke a touchy subject with quite some powder, so I would ask the commenters to take a deep breath before they dive into it. Digital Extremes is, as many other companies, in the business of making money, so any changes to the Platinum system need to be measured with care. There needs to be a fine balance on what is touched, so DE can still feed their employees. The original idea comes from here. With that being established, 'ere we go.

When I started playing Warframe, I quickly threw down the money for the Hunter's Pack. US$50, meh, I can afford it. But I am not everyone, and I am also working 40 hours a week, so my income replaces my time to grind. (Un)fortunately, I had a lot (a lot) of sicktime due to a vurs infection, so my current playtime is in the neighbourhood of 150 hours, in about 40 days. Nevertheless, the Affinity boosters and shortcuts that I purchased made my time in Warframe a lot more efficient, because I didn't have to wait for walls to come down.

Yet, with all that Platinum in my hands, I quickly realized what many others are expressing and feeling - the current handling of Platinum-asssitance is quite detrimental to those without Platinum, first and foremost the Orokin system. The importance of unpaying members lies in their job to populate a game, so those with money stick and spend more. It is important that the incentive to pay is involuntary, and not forced. Real money transaction should expand or facilitate, not unlock gameplay.

Taken from that other thread, here are my core five suggestions to Digital Extremes on the topic of Platinum & Cash Shop.

• Do away with currency obscursion.
  This is a very, very important point. Whenever I go into a F2P game with ingame currency, I check for the conversion rate(s). Currently, Warframe translates US$5 into P75. The rate obscures the actual value of Platinum prices. I highly advise DE, in their own interest, to cut all prices by 33%, then bring them up by a factor of 10 in nummerical value, so US$5 becomes P500. For example, Blacklight Retribution equates 1000 ZEN with US$10. That is a direct, relatable number and gives the user a clear information about how much something costs.
  
  • As an example for Warframe: Affinity Boosters for 7 days are P80. A new price would be P540. Now the user knows he is paying US$5.40 for 7 days of doubled XP.
    

  Obscured currencies are carnie folk tricks to sell more, by having the audience lose their concept of value. There is no other practical use for it other than having consumers detach their sense of posession/value from the converted currency. Please do not use such tactics.

• Add more increments for Platinum purchases.
  Please add a US$14.99 and US$19.99 option, with brought-in-line rebates. This is a minor thing for user comfort, but the jump from US$9.99 to US$29.99 is far. You will make the most of your money from the US$5 to US$20 purchases, as those are usually within pain tolerance for users.
  

• Change how slots can be obtained.
  Currently, slots are more limiting than just to be convenience. You are forcing players to throw away progress to continue with content. While I understand that you are putting a number on the convenience of having a vast palette of gear to chose from, I highly suggest a change in mentality. here. Players should be able to keep what they worked for. This is another case of a cash-locked limiter, not a cash-enabled expander. I suggest you tie the frame and weapon slots to the ranking system, so that the inventory expands as people progress.
  
  • The ranking system needs some work, by the way. ;)
    

  If you insist on having the inventory being paid for at all, make sure that assigned expansion per rank make it possible to reach the next rank, albeit barely. Cash can circumvent the rank to make more room as one sees fit. This is again, cash as an expander, not as a key to a locked limiter.

• The Orokin System needs a massive rework.
  Currently, the Orokin System is a massive Skinner Box with way too low pulses to entice the associated effects. I highly suggest changing this, so Orokin Reactor/Catalyst are obtainable through tangible process over randomized luck.
  
  • One system that can work is mission rewards. In 140 hours of play time, I finished about 900 missions, so extrapolating that, 6.5 missions per hour. That means, subsequently, that 50 missions would take about 8 hours, if you grind like me - that is one intervall per one day. If you go slower or play less a day than I did, it takes you longer to reach such an intervall. The importance is: It has to be slow enough that buying an Orokin item is a timesaver.
    If it would take 50 missions completed (not failed) to get the choice: "Orokin Reactor/Catalyst", unpaying customers had a goal to fight towards, with every mission bringing them closer to it. After playing for 140 hours, they would have massed 18 Orokin items, which would not be sufficient to cover all of them - but it would give them a tangible goal and make the purchase of those items still a timesaver.
    
  • The other option is to do away with the Orokin System entirely. by it's nature, it is a limiter, not an expander. It is not a sidegrade, it is an upgrade. That turns it into a hurdle - and it is the ugly stain on your catalogue of virtual products. While other Platinum items add stuff or bypass time, this one is an artificial limiter. You will always have people see it as a wall one has to climb, and most drive-by players will not stop to check where else they can get an Orokin item. My best suggestion is either a clearly communicated alternative with tangible process (see above) or a complete purge of the system. It is holding you guys back more than it helps.
    

• Expand the vanity/customization options of the cash shop.
  It is probably in the works, but this needs to come to pick up the slack and give us stuff to actually buy. Right now, we are fairly limited in what we can purchase. I am looking for skins, a broader colour palette, particle effects (Nyx' bracers are the shizzle!), alternate ability effects, alternate gun muzzle flashes or tracer colours (neogreen tracers. Mhmm, delicious), alternate tinting maps (easier than textures, still effective), alternate animation sets for running, jumping, etc. - tons of vanity stuff, to make my frame unique. Give me the option to purchase metallic colours for "untintable" parts, such as Excalibur and Loki have them, give me something to throw my money at and you will get it. Promised.
  

In general, I am imploring Digital Extremes to look at their cash shop as an expansion to the base game - never an unlocking device. Give us more individuality, faster XP/Credits, maybe even something like a farming amplifier (+50% higher drop rate for mods and rare materials), but don't limit the game if you don't pay. Make paying customers enrichen their gaming experience over unlocking it. Make it fun to spend cash. Happy customers spend more, and they spend again.

DE is taking a risk here. No publisher means, no bufferzone. This works or it flips. You have good gameplay, a slim client, and a great art team. You have a responsive dev crew, good community managers, fast support turn-around, a decent community, a bangin' concept, and nice gunplay. You have an interesting background and story potential. The only thing that stains this mix is the current cash shop, the limitation of the inventory slots and the supercharging. Fix those, and Warframe's future will be brighter. If you don't, you will have reoccurring complaints, because paying to remove a limitation has an entirely different (and negative) taste to than accelerating the inevitable. If cash gives you more, it's fair. If cash removes limitations, it feels like a hostage situation.

Don't take ransom money, take rainbow money.

Thank you for your considerations.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Ced23Ric

[Silenterr]

Wow , nice post like all you ideas , personally I find the CS abit too expensive when purchasing warframes which can cost upwards of $20+

Edited February 4, 2013 by Silenterr

[Voracious]

Agreed with the OP. This game has alot of potential left if some changes can be made. But it is in closed beta, so i feel that there is still lot of time for changes to come.

[TheRealTuna]

As always, nice contribution Cedric. +1

I will say, as I have said in several other posts, that the fact that Warframe/Item slots are limited for and unobtainable by F2P players is a huge problem. There needs to be some way for them to be obtainable without the use of platinum. Tying slots with rank ups is an interesting idea.

I agree entirely with your suggestions regarding the currency ratio change and the plat shop in general.

It seems evident that what I have come to refer to now as "The Orokin Problem" needs a major rework.

In another thread, player Blatantfool analyzed how little Orokin items will actually contribute to DE's overall profit as compared to other platinum items. I think that, in time, DE will realize that Orokin items, raking in a measly $1-2 each, are not worth limiting so severely for F2P players. It will do nothing but frustrate players, and will be more effective in discouraging players from playing than in convincing players to throw down for Orokin items.

As you say in the final line of your post, it is always optimal for people to WANT to spend money as opposed to feeling like they HAVE to spend money. I am confident in DE and its staff; they will find the right way to fix The Orokin Problem in time.

Edited February 4, 2013 by TheRealTuna

[HUmar]

+1 Not mutch to be added here!

[Blatantfool]

This would be the first step on the road to convincing a guy like me to shell out for Master or Grandmaster.

I believe Ced23Ric is right and the things he has said are perfectly reasonable improvements.

Edit: I'm going to bump this thread raw if I have to.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Mak_Gohae]

Slot's are fine. Every game get this complain including games with subs, people always want more, which is natural, but people need to understand limits.

Orokin is fine. The game is not unplayable without them, in fact, i am right now thinking of making a clan where NOTHING gets Orokin in them and just make videos of people clearing EVERYTHING.

The vanity items will surely come as space can be clearly seen already build for them.

[TheRealTuna]

The lack of slots for F2P players is not fine. That doesn't mean that F2P should get unlimited slots or anything...but restricting F2P players to 2 warframes and 6 weapons really hinders gameplay and progression. If ranking up gave either 1 warframe slot or 2 weapon slots, players would still be able to progress without getting "too much" free in platinum. For example, first rank up yields 2 weapon slots, second rank up yields 1 warframe slot, third rank up yields 2 weapon slots, etc.

Orokin is by no means required for the completion of the game, yes. Regardless, the most important thing for a game is...well, the players. If people don't actually play the game, the game will die. The limitation on Orokin stuff, while NOT required in the least for killing bosses and farming mats etc, frustrates players and discourages them from playing because they feel like they are being strongarmed into buying platinum.

That said, they shouldn't be so easily obtained without the use of platinum. Like I said, I am confident that the devs will figure out the right balance.

[Blatantfool]

I think ultimately you'll find it doesn't matter if you can clear all the current content with Mak. The current content is not useful when you think about later down the road.

That will eventually platuea as the future of the game requires DE to step their game up. There is a limit to the best you can expect from a weapon with three Mod slots or a frame with 4.

In fact, simply updating the Chargers in the Infected Arsenal really changed up the Infected levels. What do you figure will happen as more new enemies with better skills and more new tilsets and higher level missions all cycle into the game?

Edit: About slots specifically. The only place I find that lame is the Warframe slots. It is my belief the game should include a recommendation to buy two Warframe Slots with the starter currency as I figure that is probably the most valuable thing you could do. Aside from that slots are fair game to sell, however I wouldn't complain for a very slow unlocking of slots via Mastery Rank.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Ced23Ric]

Thank you for your opinion Mak_Gohae, noted. Has the expected fallacies, but that's okay. I like to step on the brake right here before this gets out of hand.

I would ask everyone to simply ignore opinions differing from their own, remain close to the topic/OP or leave it be. Another pointless, recursive discussion that is running in circles is not needed. You don't have to convince another player otherwise. He doesn't matter. What matters is that Digital Extremes sees, reads and understands what their player base likes. You have to convince, if anyone, DE of your opinion. Try that, before you dive into the same arguments and circle debates.

Try convincing DE, with thought-out, put-together statements.

Don't try to convince other players, in favour or against changes. They are, ultimately, irrelevant.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Ced23Ric

[Zakalwe]

The lack of slots for F2P players is not fine. That doesn't mean that F2P should get unlimited slots or anything...but restricting F2P players to 2 warframes and 6 weapons really hinders gameplay and progression.

The free 50 platinum allows F2Pers to purchase slots.

They can have, for example, 3 Warframe and 10 Weapon slots in total if they spend that platinum wisely.

The problem is that most won't know the value of slots until long after they've spent it.

If DE don't want to change the slot system, I propose they do away with the free platinum and just give F2Pers those extra slots. Or, at the very least, offer some kind of suggestion on how to spend them, as BF amd myself have suggested previously.

-

No need for the superior tone with your replies, but I agree with your OP Ced. 100%.

[Mak_Gohae]

I think ultimately you'll find it doesn't matter if you can clear all the current content with Mak. The current content is not useful when you think about later down the road.

That will eventually platuea as the future of the game requires DE to step their game up. There is a limit to the best you can expect from a weapon with three Mod slots or a frame with 4.

In fact, simply updating the Chargers in the Infected Arsenal really changed up the Infected levels. What do you figure will happen as more new enemies with better skills and more new tilsets and higher level missions all cycle into the game?

Edit: About slots specifically. The only place I find that lame is the Warframe slots. It is my belief the game should include a recommendation to buy two Warframe Slots with the starter currency as I figure that is probably the most valuable thing you could do. Aside from that slots are fair game to sell, however I wouldn't complain for a very slow unlocking of slots via Mastery Rank.

What makes you think when they up the max levels they wont up the limit level?

That chosen level is obviously picked because at that point missions can still be done, if they add higher stuff that has to be reworked as well.

Thank you for your opinion Mak_Gohae, noted. Has the expected fallacies, but that's okay. I like to step on the brake right here before this gets out of hand.

I would ask everyone to simply ignore opinions differing from their own, remain close to the topic/OP or leave it be. Another pointless, recursive discussion that is running in circles is not needed. You don't have to convince another player otherwise. He doesn't matter. What matters is that Digital Extremes sees, reads and understands what their player base likes. You have to convince, if anyone, DE of your opinion. Try that, before you dive into the same arguments and circle debates.

Try convincing DE, with thought-out, put-together statements.

Don't try to convince other players, in favour or against changes. They are, ultimately, irrelevant.

Yes, the different side of the argument always has "falacies"

And, yes, thougtful constructive arguments are better but there comes a point when their value lessens as the same argument gets repeated under different guises.

[Noctua]

Great post Ced23Ric, I agree with it entirely.

In my honest opinion all one should pay for is 'rush' construction, purchasing frames/weapons without having to grind for them, and customization options, which of course will be more varied than now.

The best F2P scheme are the ones where real money = game time, where one can either play for days to get the one item he wants, or pay and have it right now. that + a varied gameplay and a wide array of visual accessories has been the winning card of many free to play games.

And I open a parentheses at- this game has a great potential in aesthetical customization, but what matters the most to people is BEING ABLE TO SHOW OFF ONE'S STUFF, and right now, one can do it to maximum 3 others at a time. if something like a tenno hideout/safeplace/market/guildhall whatever people can go to to socialize was to come out, I know for sure the revenue earnt by customization options would increase tenfold.

[Blatantfool]

Also, since part of the thread topic happens to be skins.

Anyone else surprised that the skins aren't actually cosmetic items? Well, they different looking and quite attractive. I mean that they each have an effect.

Not against it mind you. Just didn't expect that part.

They are pretty nice though. I like them.

75 plat is 5 bucks right? So that is pretty reasonable. I'm hoping they only charge 10 for the 'Suit' skins if they every do something like that.

I am hoping they do more then just different helmets.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Blatantfool

[cypherhalo]

I'd have to agree with the OP for the most part. He's right about currency obscursion but I honestly don't get too upset about it, so I think DE can leave that as is.

Slots and Orokin need reworks though. Personally, I'm against slots in general and don't think they should be in a game. If DE really wants to keep them I would request that they allow you to put your old stuff in "storage" so that all your progress doesn't go out the window. For example, say I have a Loki and a Volt, I want to buy Nyx. Well, let me put the Loki into "storage" and put Nyx in his empty slot. Now, to keep abuse from happening, lock things into "storage". Say, a week, or maybe 2-4 weeks. Anything I put into storage is stuck there until the time runs out or I pay plat. I think that would be a compromise position so I don't have to sell my lvl 30 Volt to buy a Nyx. All that said, it's a lot easier and I think better to just lose the slots.

Orokin also needs some way for people to progress to get them, not pray that the loot gods will smile upon them. It can be a long, hard process but there needs to be a way. The OP's suggestion sounds ok, personally I'd favor some kind of Orokin blueprint, but something needs to be done.

I think we all want expanded vanity items but I also think it's pretty plain that they are working on this so . . . I see nothing to elaborate on there.

Great game, keep up the good work.

[Zakalwe]

Also, since part of the thread topic happens to be skins.

Anyone else surprised that the skins aren't actually cosmetic items? Well, they different looking and quite attractive. I mean that they each have an effect.

Not against it mind you. Just didn't expect that part.

They are pretty nice though. I like them.

75 plat is 5 bucks right? So that is pretty reasonable. I'm hoping they only charge 10 for the 'Suit' skins if they every do something like that.

I am hoping they do more then just different helmets.

There's space in the equip screen for chassis as well as helmets, so I'm pretty sure they're on the cards.

And I don't mind the effects as each has a negative.

[Blatantfool]

There's space in the equip screen for chassis as well as helmets, so I'm pretty sure they're on the cards.

And I don't mind the effects as each has a negative.

I feel much the same. The effects aren't so bad if the downside exists.

[DetergentPod]

Slot's are fine. Every game get this complain including games with subs, people always want more, which is natural, but people need to understand limits.

Orokin is fine. The game is not unplayable without them, in fact, i am right now thinking of making a clan where NOTHING gets Orokin in them and just make videos of people clearing EVERYTHING.

The vanity items will surely come as space can be clearly seen already build for them.

If that is how you want to play the game that is fine play it with only 15 points added to the skill branch. Not everyone wants to be challenge beyond a certain point. If you want this game to be challenging then Respec all your mods and skill, don't add anything and solo a mission. Go do whatever you want. The point is not everyone is good in this kind of game. Not everyone is good in FPS that can pull of trick shots and 360 no scope. So stop trying to make the game more challenging for other people that don't want to be challenege that much. If you want challenges find ways to challenge yourself not others.

Edited February 4, 2013 by ThePieBoy

[Albinobunny]

Pretty much 100% agree.

The hang ups I have with spending cash are:

1) Orokins are dumb

2) Slots make it very hard to transition when the games focused on levelling specific elements of content

3) it's about 40% too expensive in my opinion.

I actually want to spend cash LESS because of the fact that I'd probably wind up spending some of it on 'dull' things like slots and Orokins which do nothing for gameplay except stop me being arbitarily restricted.

[Fenrisulfr]

Nice one, you've stated in here pretty much everything that needed to be said. I'm quite confident that between this and other threads devs can clearly notice trends within community, and can according to it take the necessary path for this game to succed. Can't wait to see what next Update will bring.

[Blatantfool]

Nice one, you've stated in here pretty much everything that needed to be said. I'm quite confident that between this and other threads devs can clearly notice trends within community, and can according to it take the necessary path for this game to succed. Can't wait to see what next Update will bring.

Yeah Ced really does cover all of the concerns I have been arguing about recently. This thread should be taken seriously. It is about as direct and reasonable as the whole thing can get.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Meltina]

Lots of alts/warframes + cosmetic options for each one = cash cow.

5 bucks for a hat with stats is too expensive drop the stats and the price. If it has stats then it makes me less likley to buy the next helmet as my current helmet already gives me stats. If you subtract the cost of a reactor that the volt, excalibur, and loki start with when you buy them they only cost 55 plat. A warframe should be more expensive than a hat.

Let us play dress up without messing up our stats.

[Samhailt]

The OP is 100% correct. I feel like this game has lower longevity for me because when I sit down and think about spending money on a game I don't immediatly think it should go to this one. Why is that?

The psychology of feeling like there are just too many hurdles to me having fun and really that's what it's about isn't it? It's the difference between me spending $20 on the game because the core gameplay was great but feeling like it's too much hassel to spend more and leaving the game or me spending $100 and having a blast every second of my game time. My pocketbook might like the former but, honestly, I'd rather have the later.

[Windbow]

Very thoughtful post, Ced23Ric. While some of your points have been suggested by others in other threads, it does not take away the impact of this one, I think. It's obvious these thoughts have been swirling around your head a bit. :)

I too am seeing more complaints about frame/weapon slots and to a certain degree, I do agree. I'm more in favour of slot-unlocks-at-each-level kind of thing (maybe 2 per XP level?). With additional or 'rush' slots paid with plats, perhaps?

I'm also having a little bitter aftertaste with regards to the Orokin modules. These definitely need some reworking. Perhaps Orokin blueprints or simply, a chance to get Orokin reactor/catalyst on those (Orokin artifact) raid missions. and perhaps, different kinds of Orokin items give different upgrade maps to the weapon or frame? And make them removable (and reusable) too. That would make things more interesting, imho.

About the plats conversion... I'm not really seeing the plats obscuration effect. I mean 5 usd = 75 plats. So 1 buck gets you 15 plats. I dunno, I just use a simple calculator (or my head) to do the conversions. Granted, a more straightforward conversion would make things simpler but it's not too big a deal to me.

I do support the expander-not-limiter point of view, though. I hope DE will take a good look at this thread along with the other posts above.

Anyway, thanks for sharing!

Edited February 4, 2013 by Windbow

[Suprizebuttseks]

Excellent thread!

These suggestions come at a good time for ANY F2P game with a cash shop, especially with more and more games like these coming out.

I have been playing these types of games for the last 4 to 5 years now and can tell the difference between a game that has a cash shop for the purpose of giving MORE power to those who pay and those games that are balanced well enough to provide a cash shop without giving the paying customer too much over the non paying.

despite having enough money to pump into an F2P game, i find the latter a lot more enjoyable. After all, I am not really playing a game if I buy all the end game gear just to smack people around.

I like these suggestions Ced.

I come from Blacklight: Retribution also and I like that currency system. I am also aware of the "funny conversions" that make you forget how much money is being spent.

I'm not sure about the majority of paying players here, but in iRL, people who have money to spend on a game consistently are the kind of people who keep tabs on their spending. Even for games that have the funny conversions, I still keep tabs by checking the emailed receipts.

I am also a believer in supporting devs of free to play. If DE will consider the suggestions made by OP, I'm in to help support finacially =)

I'm just a Disciple for now but I am planning to upgrade as the game improves. Ced's post is a great start

UPDATE: Hunter now =D Master soon!

Edited February 5, 2013 by Suprizebuttseks